Sounds like the age old question "can God make a rock that is too big for Himself to lift?"
I don't know the answer. It's not only a contradiction to a logical human being. It's a contradiction to all human beings.
There are things about God that are really impossible to understand. But in many places in the bible, it doesn't shy away from this fact. Ecclesiastes, Job, Isaiah, all attest to this. Yet there is still belief in God.
I'm confused. Why would you mention Ecclesiastes, Job, and Isaiah. You are getting off topic. All these writers believed in God but not a trinitarian God. What is contradictory about the nature of God that is written in these books?
I'm glad you at least admitted to the fact that Jesus being ignorant of the timing of his second coming is a contradiction to the belief that Jesus is "one being" with the Father. I have a question for you. Do you think it's fair for God to require humans to believe in a contradiction in order to be saved? If I have to believe that Jesus is the one true God ("I am") to avoid dying in my sins (John 8:24) then, with all due respect, your God is a monster for requiring me to believe in a contradiction for salvation.
Well the bible seems to say it by implication in several verses. By eternal I mean to say that from my perspective Jesus is eternal. What happened before the creation of our universe is something that I look forward to learning about when it's revealed.
I have been working on BeDuhn's take on John 1:1 and have read some about him as well.
Here is a debate that I've been reading. Maybe you would like to read it too.
Thanks for the link. I'll read the whole thing when I have more time.
The bible implies that Jesus is eternal??? Are you surprised that I can find verses that imply that Jesus was created. I'm not. THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOT CLEAR! I can think of two verses off the top of my head:
Col. 1:15 - "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"
Rev. 3:14 - "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God"
In addition, I am also not surprised that another verse that claims Jesus is God (John 1:1) is under investigation. I would think the all-powerful God could write/inspire unambiguously about his true nature. The reason why there is so much debate over the doctrine of the Trinity is because you have different authors with different theologies writing about what they think Jesus' nature truly is. And they write so ambiguously that different interpretations are bound to happen.
How hard is it for your all-powerful God to inspire a text to say, "the Godhead is one being that consists of three persons - the father, son and holy spirit and all three persons are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial". There wouldn't be too much confusion if we found a verse in the bible that said that right? There would be confusion as to understanding this but at least there wouldn't be any disagreement as to the definition/formula of the Godhead.
To avoid all the confusion, I'm going to make a guess and say that you would much rather have this specific formula/definition of the Godhead revealed in your bible then saaaaay a contradictory genealogy of Jesus. Do you know why this formula had to be created centuries after the life of Jesus? Because your God was not specific enough in his word concerning the true nature of Jesus. The debate over the trinity has lasted for century, after century, after century all because the holy spirit is a horrible communicator and couldn't specifically and clearly reveal the nature of Jesus. Some say Jesus is the one true God and they will rattle off many verses; and some say Jesus is not the one true God and they have their verses for support.
Conclusion: Your bible is either not divinely inspired or your God is a horrible communicator!
I don't remember the time the connection was made, but it may have been made for me. I accepted it because it made sense though. That the Jewish leaders were going to stone Him for saying it, makes it even more evident.
It doesn't make it more evident to me especially after reading BeDuhn's argument. I'm still waiting for that rebuttal. The circumstantial evidence that the Jews picked up stones to stone him BECAUSE he claimed the divine title is not enough. Is this your only rebuttal? You have in the same chapter Jesus saying, "But as it is, you are SEEKING TO KILL ME, a MAN who has told you the truth, which I heard FROM God..." (John 8:40). Even by Jesus saying that he heard something FROM God is excluding him from being God. In addition, why were the Jews seeking to kill Jesus (verse 40)? It wasn't for claiming to be God was it? But then you say that in 19 verses later the Jews are picking up stones because Jesus is claiming to be God. I'm not buying it. BeDuhn's argument that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus for claiming to be superior to Abraham and to have "superhuman longevity" is much more plausible.
I'm also not buying that the "I am" connection "MAY" have been made for you. Sorry, I wish I could believe you that you possibly made this connection yourself but I just don't believe you. Additionally, I believe you would have remembered making this amazing connection on your own.
I don't emphasize that it's an absolute pre-requisite for salvation. I hope that I've conveyed that clearly enough. But I understand what you are talking about. I know that many do emphasize it.
You don't emphasize that believing that Jesus is God is an absolute pre-requisite for salvation??? You hope that you have conveyed that clearly enough??? Quite the opposite Patrick Henry. You have not conveyed that clearly enough. In post #115 you state:
"I think that it's very important to understand that Jesus is the Son of God (Deity). That He was sinless, that He was present in the creation with God, that they are One. All these things are crucial to understanding salvation."
I believe I have spotted a contradiction. Truth is to falsehood like Patrick Henry's view of salvation is to contradiction.
By the way, why wouldn't you think that it is a pre-requisite for salvation to believe that Jesus is the one true God? John 8:24 says that you will "die in your sins" if you don't believe that Jesus is "I am". If you think that Jesus is the "I am" of John 8:58 then you have to believe he is mentioning the divine title in John 8:24 as well.
I can't believe you can look at a verse like John 8:24 with your view of the "I am" and then say it is NOT a pre-requisite to believe that Jesus is the one true God ("I am"). Explain yourself please.
Jesus says that unless one believes that Jesus is "I am" they will die in their sins.
Patrick Henry says, "I don't emphasize that it's an absolute pre-requisite for salvation".
I understand your point, but I disagree with your conclusion that God likes to see His children.......kill one another......over contradictory doctrine. This sounds no different than the arguments that God must not be real or He wouldn't allow evil and human suffering.
Surely you knew that wars have been fought over doctrinal differences and power struggles over the centuries. What Calvin was a part of probably seemed justified to him. I don't understand how, but living in that time of religious authority, I can imagine it. It's no excuse though, he should have been convicted by God but really a Christian is capable of committing sin against another person as we both know.
I don't fault God for that. You may disagree, but the scriptures are clear enough, that believers should know better than to kill over such things. At least from the new testament. I don't get that, and I don't think it's in there.
Remember Patrick that I take issue with people saying "clear" and "scripture" in the same sentence. It is God's fault! Like I said earlier, if your God is all-powerful it would not be hard for him to clearly write/inspire a text to give his followers the correct understanding of his nature.
Believers should know better than to kill over such things??? Christians are to be Christ-like! If you think Jesus is the same person as the Holy Spirit then we have Jesus murdering two individuals for being hypocrites and not giving to the church all they promised (Acts 5). John Calvin is just following the leadership of Jesus. John Calvin is a murderer just like Jesus is a murderer. You can find justification for almost
anything in the bible and that is because THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOT CLEAR!
If God doesn't reveal all things to us directly, but through a combination of the bible and the Holy Spirit, and we know that is taught, wouldn't it make sense that human beings, even Christians, will evolve in their faith and understanding of Him?
You might come to this conclusion but this makes no sense to me. One of the reasons I "evolved" out of my faith is because the bible says the Holy Spirit will guide individuals into "all truth" (John 16:13). This sounds great but then I realized there are over 40,000 different Christian denominations and all these denominations believe different things about the bible because of different interpretations over different doctrines. Which denomination has the correct view on all doctrines? Is there even one individual in this world who has the correct view on all the doctrines? Which denomination has the Holy Spirit guiding then into all truth? They can't all be right.
My conclusion: The Holy Spirit has been falsified and, therefore, does not exist. Either that or Jesus is a liar when he said the Holy Spirit will guide people into "all truth".