Poll

Would this experiment really prove it?

yes
4 (13.8%)
no
25 (86.2%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Experiment to prove God isn't real.  (Read 8290 times)

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2014, 10:36:16 AM »
I think the quick answer is probably be going to come for a theist that 'one shall not put the Lord your God to the test'. If that were the case, then of course god would ignore the test and nothing would be proved.

In the case of Jeanna Giese there is a more mundane explanation for here cure and it has nothing to do with god. The doctor treating here put her into a coma on the basis that the comatose brain would not be affected, as normal one, with the rabies bug. Good scientific reasons and it worked. The prayer circle was something for the people to do whilst medicine cure here.

I find it quite interesting that Jeanna Giese, was cured after all that prayer.  Apparently all the prayers before did not work for those afflicted with Rabies,  but this set of prayers was so compelling that god decided he would let people occasionally live as long as they used the Milwakee Protocol. 

Thank you Jeanna Giese for your finally catching gods ear he was even so benevolent as to only give her minor brain damage.  Perhaps we can pray just a little more and have the milwakee protocol work 80 or 90% of the time with even less brain damage.


directly commenting on the OP,  I have to say that there is the easy answer that god will not be tested.  End of story.  A religious person has this one sewn up and it does not require further explaination.

Originally when I heard this story I was impressed.  I mean the only person in human history to survive Rabies is no small feet.  But when I found out that they were trying a specific treatment designed to improve the odds from 0% the miracle seemed alot less impressive.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 10:43:40 AM by epidemic »

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2014, 11:31:33 AM »
Yep, the trouble with claims for the power of prayer in healings is that they fall into two classes -

1. Patient has the sort of problem that sometimes gets better by itself - this could include some cancers for example. Prayers are aid but, oddly, the prayers for those who are not healed are forgotten and then the odd person stands out as an example of god's healing power  the power of the body to heal itself.

2. Medical science is used in the extreme to treat a person - maybe even to resuscitate them. After all the hard work and dedication of the medical team the family say that they prayer for the person and they recovered - ignoring the hard work.

Yep, its confirmation bias at work!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2014, 12:25:00 PM »
It is all in how you tell the story. 


Jeanna Giese the only human being to ever survive a case of rabies on the heals of large prayer session is an amazing story.  It is also an absolutely true story.  Most religious citation of her story does leave out the fact that now Jeanna Giese is in good company with several other people who survived.  it is a growing club that does not have a unique form of prayer associated with all of successes.  The milwakee protocol seems to be the common thread not prayer.

Offline Backspace

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2014, 10:44:58 AM »
Immediately following the 2008 national election in the US, several prominent and lesser known evangelical christian ministers banded together to form a nation-wide "prayer circle' seeking the untimely death of the new president of the United States for alledged crimes against their god and their country.  At its peak, news media estimated the circle had more than a million members - all fervently praying, with all their hart, for their god to smite Barack Obama for reasons very real to them. After 3-4 years, and obvious inaction on the part of their god, the prayer circle campaign quietly disbanded.

A few years back, Texas governor Rick Perry held a christian prayer rally at the state capitol, asking all Texans to pray for rain to end a severe drought that gripped the state. Based on feedback to the state pray-for-rain rally website, tens of thousands of christains supported the campaign, with daily prayers for rain.  While the state did have sporadic rain since the prayer campaign began, most of the state is still in moderate to severe drought.

Documented instances where throngs of christians prayed for outcomes that never occurred.

Edit:  Just came across this:
Quote
Pat Robertson Prays For Obama's Removal, Asks God To 'Deliver Us From This President'
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/pat-robertson-prays-obamas-removal-asks-god-deliver-us-president
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 12:05:43 PM by Backspace »
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2014, 12:34:50 PM »
Immediately following the 2008 national election in the US, several prominent and lesser known evangelical christian ministers banded together to form a nation-wide "prayer circle' seeking the untimely death of the new president of the United States for alledged crimes against their god and their country.  At its peak, news media estimated the circle had more than a million members - all fervently praying, with all their hart, for their god to smite Barack Obama for reasons very real to them. After 3-4 years, and obvious inaction on the part of their god, the prayer circle campaign quietly disbanded.

A few years back, Texas governor Rick Perry held a christian prayer rally at the state capitol, asking all Texans to pray for rain to end a severe drought that gripped the state. Based on feedback to the state pray-for-rain rally website, tens of thousands of christains supported the campaign, with daily prayers for rain.  While the state did have sporadic rain since the prayer campaign began, most of the state is still in moderate to severe drought.

Documented instances where throngs of christians prayed for outcomes that never occurred.

Edit:  Just came across this:
Quote
Pat Robertson Prays For Obama's Removal, Asks God To 'Deliver Us From This President'
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/pat-robertson-prays-obamas-removal-asks-god-deliver-us-president


Well you must remember that the answer to prayers always comes in the form of three answers.  Yes, No or wait.  I guess in the case of a question like rain and drought, one may need to add a fourth option where. 

Barak Obama is clearly will not live for ever.  So that prayer is answered with a wait.

Rain in Texas has been answered with a resounding yes for thousands of square miles.

See prayers are answered.

Offline Backspace

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2014, 12:39:49 PM »
Quote
Matthew 17:20: Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

x1,000,000 - that's a lot of mustard.
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2014, 03:00:53 PM »
Rain in Texas has been answered with a resounding yes for thousands of square miles.

This just in...
Quote
Drought now affecting two thirds of Texas

The Lone Star State can't seem to stay out of the heat. In a new drought report by the Texas Water Development Board, the state saw worsening conditions that now affect two thirds of Texas...

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Drought-now-affecting-two-thirds-of-Texas-5383051.php?cmpid=hpfc

There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2014, 03:07:54 PM »
Rain in Texas has been answered with a resounding yes for thousands of square miles.

This just in...
Quote
Drought now affecting two thirds of Texas

The Lone Star State can't seem to stay out of the heat. In a new drought report by the Texas Water Development Board, the state saw worsening conditions that now affect two thirds of Texas...

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Drought-now-affecting-two-thirds-of-Texas-5383051.php?cmpid=hpfc

To be fair, Texas's area (in square miles) divided by 3 is approximately 89607 square miles. That's almost 90 thousand square miles. Or so will epidemic claim, even though his intention was clear.
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Offline voodoo child

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2014, 07:41:16 PM »
I think a billion people prayed for Michael Jackson…       :?
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline shaheen

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2014, 05:54:04 PM »
This post which has already been posted twice elsewhere has been removed as spam.

Shaheen,

Please do not simply copy the same message into different threads.

I have also had to remove the posts that respond: this is most annoying.

GB Mod
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 05:32:06 AM by Graybeard »

Offline Billrabara

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2014, 06:38:28 PM »
I vote no:

Standard theist reply/excuse (when it failed) would be:

Luke 4:12: And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Exactly.  And it follows that believing something is true when it is impossible to determine if your belief is true necessarily requires faith. 

A more interesting question, I think, is "What evidence would eliminate any possibility, to your epistemological satisfaction, that he/it exists?" For me it is that pledging my allegiance to Satan and denouncing God and hoping for his death causes me no discernible ill effects. That's enough for me.

Offline fodder101

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2017, 02:23:47 AM »
In my opinion there are no indirect ways to effectively resolve the question of if God exists. As far as I can tell, what is necessary to put this debate to rest is "God in a jar" essentially. My reasoning is simple, evidence that points to God existing can be easily interpreted as coincidence. Evidence that points to God not existing can also be rationalized away with emotional (faith based) logic.

In other words, while there's plenty to say that God's imaginary to someone who thinks literally, emotional thinkers will require something much more direct than evidence that just points to a conclusion.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2017, 03:22:32 AM »
Hi fodder - welcome to the forums!  I think you'll enjoy it here!

I would make one suggestion though - please try not to "resurrect" threads that are too old.  This thread, for example, was last posted in over three years ago, and many of those involved may no longer be around to reply.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Boots

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2017, 01:33:41 PM »
I vote no:

Standard theist reply/excuse (when it failed) would be:

Luke 4:12: And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Exactly.  And it follows that believing something is true when it is impossible to determine if your belief is true necessarily requires faith. 

A more interesting question, I think, is "What evidence would eliminate any possibility, to your epistemological satisfaction, that he/it exists?" For me it is that pledging my allegiance to Satan and denouncing God and hoping for his death causes me no discernible ill effects. That's enough for me.

Interesting!  Two points.

1) if a true, gawd-fearing theist tried this as an experiment, I'll bet dollars to donuts they'd experience severe psychosomatic effects (such as nausea) due to stress.

2) note that after Solomon pretty much devolved into debauchery & gave up on Gawd, Gawd didn't punish *him*, he vowed to take vengeance on *his son.*  So, just because YOU don't notice any effects doesn't mean that SOMEONE won't!  Gawd taking vengeance on someone's progeny is well-supported in the Bible.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Experiment to prove God isn't real.
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2017, 01:46:10 PM »
In my opinion there are no indirect ways to effectively resolve the question of if God exists. As far as I can tell, what is necessary to put this debate to rest is "God in a jar" essentially. My reasoning is simple, evidence that points to God existing can be easily interpreted as coincidence. Evidence that points to God not existing can also be rationalized away with emotional (faith based) logic.

In other words, while there's plenty to say that God's imaginary to someone who thinks literally, emotional thinkers will require something much more direct than evidence that just points to a conclusion.


Well done! This is sort of message theists need to think about. Realistically, any proof of god that fails to show us the real thing is easily viewed both ways. Mind, we have asked people to pray for healing for, say, children with cancer, and they won't do that - presumably realising it won't happen. Philosophy is worse, in my opinion. It is making things up, setting them in a phoney system of logic and claiming god jumps out!


So, yes, we need so hard objective proof before we could accept the existence of a god.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)