Author Topic: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?  (Read 675 times)

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Offline Aaron123

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Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« on: November 11, 2013, 02:19:06 PM »
"You cannot be moral without god."  "Morality comes from god."  "We need the ten commandments in the courthouses."

Evidently, we need god and his laws to guide use throughout life, and to provide order to society.

With that in mind, why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?  Instead, he waited until Exodus to list down his set of rules.  Sure, he gave out a rule or commandment every now and then, but nothing like the detailed set of laws that he provided to Moses.

It's not like he didn't have time to do so.  Adam lived for 930 years.  That's plenty of time.  Perhaps that would've prevented Abel from getting killed.  He also had the opportunity after the flood, with only eight people to deal with.  Again, he didn't bother.  The book of Genesis covers... what, a 2,000 years period? (keeping in mind how long people lived back then)  It took god that long to explain the rules?

If we need gods laws to run society, and god didn't provide, doesn't that mean that the early civilizations (I'm looking at the flood time) were doomed to failure?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 02:25:16 PM »
I heard through the grapevine that his Dell Omnipotentizer was on the fritz, and have you any idea how long it takes to get parts when your reality is eternity itself. Nobody feels any need to hurry. Took over a thousand years. Less than a heartbeat. Nobody up there gave it a thought. Especially Him.

So he didn't see the bad stuff coming. He was, as one would expect of a newbie god, so frickin' naïve.

He should have gone with Apple, though. Yea, it would have cost more, but their iOmnipotentizers are so reliable.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 02:57:52 PM »
Because he had a shitload of people to kill first. He had to fill hell with people to give all those fallen angels something to do.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Online One Above All

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 03:06:16 PM »
For Adam and Eve, one could make at least two arguments:
Argument 1
Since A&E didn't know right from wrong, giving them laws would be pointless, as DA LAWD doesn't want robots.
Argument 2
Since A&E were created perfect, laws were not necessary. It was only after several generations that their perfection was lost somehow.

Both arguments have holes, as with every religious argument. I don't think I need to point them out.
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 06:50:11 PM »
There was still punishment.

When Cain killed Abel, he got banished. God was pissed. God certainly didn't laugh about it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nick

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 07:32:10 PM »
Oh, banishment.  What a terrible punishment.  Why not turn him into a pillar of salt?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Backspace

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 08:20:55 PM »
Some theists will tell you the books in the bible aren't in order, so perhaps Exodus came before Genesis.  Don't press a theist on this apologetic, as it gets messy in a hurry.

Because he had a shitload of people to kill first.

What's amazing is shortly after smashing the first set commandments, Moses leads the slaughter of 3,000 men, women, and children of his own tribe.  So much for Thou Shall Not Kill -- perhaps that's why that commandment didn't make it on the second set of tablets.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2013, 11:29:57 PM »
For Adam and Eve, one could make at least two arguments:
Argument 1
Since A&E didn't know right from wrong, giving them laws would be pointless, as DA LAWD doesn't want robots.
Argument 2
Since A&E were created perfect, laws were not necessary. It was only after several generations that their perfection was lost somehow.

Both arguments have holes, as with every religious argument. I don't think I need to point them out.
If A&E were created perfect how were they corruptible,aside from the fact its the only way the story works?
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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 05:28:12 AM »
For Adam and Eve, one could make at least two arguments:
Argument 1
Since A&E didn't know right from wrong, giving them laws would be pointless, as DA LAWD doesn't want robots.
Argument 2
Since A&E were created perfect, laws were not necessary. It was only after several generations that their perfection was lost somehow.

Both arguments have holes, as with every religious argument. I don't think I need to point them out.
If A&E were created perfect how were they corruptible,aside from the fact its the only way the story works?

*sigh*
Did you even read my post? I'll put it in bold for you.

Both arguments have holes, as with every religious argument. I don't think I need to point them out.

Apparently I was wrong about not needing to point out the holes.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 05:58:06 AM »
being omniscient god knew he would be changing the laws so he didn't bother posting them in order to avoid questions/looking like an ass?

Offline neopagan

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2013, 09:34:17 AM »
God knew them, being omni-all, so why bother telling his creation the rules?
 
Isn't that the fundy argument in a nutshell - "He's god, he can do whatever he wants"?
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2013, 09:42:44 AM »
God knew them, being omni-all, so why bother telling his creation the rules?
 
Isn't that the fundy argument in a nutshell - "He's god, he can do whatever he wants"?

Yes. Once the big man gives a set of rules and makes covenants he suddenly becomes accountable.

He becomes the exasperated parent of a billion children all asking "why?"

Offline Jag

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2013, 10:36:32 AM »
There was still punishment.

When Cain killed Abel, he got banished. God was pissed. God certainly didn't laugh about it.

Yeah and then he went off and found himself a wife in the land of Nod - so he could procreate with someone other than his own mother. Terrible punishment indeed.

Wait a minute..... where did the people in Nod come from? Who are the "everyone" that will slay him on sight - according to the story the only other people on Earth at the time were his parents whom he was never going to see again due to his banishment? And how exactly can you claim such a terrible punishment when in a matter of a couple of verses, his life starts looking pretty good? WTF?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2013, 10:48:40 AM »
Not just a wife - he built a whole city.  And he had a son, and and a grandson, and a great-grandson, and a great-great grandson.

And then he vanishes out of the tale, possible ruler of his own land, certain family man.  Either he lived his life and died naturally, surrounded by his family, or (maybe) lived long enough to perish in the same flood that saw off his reat-great-great-great=grand-nephew.  Either way, its a struggle to see where the "punishment" arises.

And either way, it TOTALLY fails to answer the question of why it took well over 1,700 years to bother actually defining the rules he expected people to live by.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jag

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2013, 11:30:00 AM »
^^^WHAT? Skepdude dodged a question and missed the point? Color me :o.

But I'd love to hear him explain the mystery that occurs between Gen 4:16 and 4:17 since he seems to think it has some relevance. I want to see how he connects the dots from "there's punishment" (which is a highly questionable word to explain the consequences of Cain's actions), to "why aren't the rules laid out from the beginning". The "punishment" he refers to predates the rules that forbid the "crime", clearly - let him explain it away.

And I really want to hear a creationist explain where the people of Nod came from.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2013, 01:22:39 PM »
And I really want to hear a creationist explain where the people of Nod came from.

Weren't the people of Nod the dinosaur wranglers?  They kept all the t-Rex/etc away from the good guys writing everything down for the bible.
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Offline median

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2013, 01:30:12 PM »
Of course the simple, short, answer to this OP is that "Yahweh" God-thing didn't do anything. Superstitious, fear-ridden, credulous, self serving men put together those "laws" and said it was "Yahweh's Law" (just like countless other religions have done throughout history with their writings). It's much easier to control people's actions when you can get them to believe they are being watched all the time ya know.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jag

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2013, 02:01:25 PM »
And I really want to hear a creationist explain where the people of Nod came from.

Weren't the people of Nod the dinosaur wranglers?  They kept all the t-Rex/etc away from the good guys writing everything down for the bible.

I don't know, nor does that answer how they came to exist, only what they might have been doing. The curiosity is almost killing me  ;)
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2013, 02:02:39 PM »
And I really want to hear a creationist explain where the people of Nod came from.

They come from a small hamlet in the East Riding of Yorkshire, England. It's located at the far end of a two-mile-long road which joins the A614 road at Holme-on-Spalding-Moor.[1]

 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Nod
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2013, 02:25:19 PM »
And I really want to hear a creationist explain where the people of Nod came from.

Weren't the people of Nod the dinosaur wranglers?  They kept all the t-Rex/etc away from the good guys writing everything down for the bible.

I don't know, nor does that answer how they came to exist, only what they might have been doing. The curiosity is almost killing me  ;)

Maybe Nod was Eden 1.0? In that particular Petri dish, YHWH's experiment hadn't gone to shit and was terribly boring for Him... watching happy humans frolic about naked in the garden and all.  So, he went on to Eden 2.0 with A&E and as we've heard; that was decidedly more interesting - talking snakes, flaming swords, incest, murder...  When Cain got the boot, he made his way to Eden 1.0 and proceeded to improve upon what he found there - spreading his unique talents picked up from A&E. 
Hey, I can make crap up too... 
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Offline Jag

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2013, 02:55:14 PM »
Hey, I can make crap up too...

Lol, I've thought you would make a good novelist since you arrived.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2013, 03:23:27 PM »
Hey, I can make crap up too...

Lol, I've thought you would make a good novelist since you arrived.

Ha, how'd you know I wake up around noon in a gin-induced fog, shuffle around the room looking for leftover stubs of cigarettes, and peck away on an old Royal typewriter until time to meet a few drinking buddies for a buffet of alcohol and regret?
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Jag

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2013, 12:00:26 AM »
^^^Holy sh!t, you're a character from a Stephen King novel aren't you?

Meanwhile, back to the topic, Skep, do you have anything to say about the people of Nod?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2013, 07:27:25 AM »
From early times, Nod was considered to be the land that was occupied by wandering tribes, moving their herds seasonally.

In Genesis there are two stories of creation: the first is Gen:1 in which God finds a planet and forms it into what early man in the Middle East saw as his world. In this story the whole of manklind is made:

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


The second creation comes at Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8  And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


Now, this is often claimed to be before Gen 1:26 i.e. God creates Adam and then goes off to create more men (whose lives and history are not important, nor are they in Eden and perhaps they were not ignorant -> they had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge and knew good from evil.)

It is now that we go back to the first creation and there are other people about.

Ge:4:16: And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Ge:4:17: And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

H5113 (Strong's Hebrew Dicitionary) Nod = no?d
node
The same as H5112; vagrancy; Nod, the land of Cain: - Nod.

exile; wandering; unrest, a name given to the country to which
Cain fled (Gen.4:16).(Eston's Bible Dicitionary)
See also vagabond in Gen 4:12  When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

Vagabond
no?d
node
The same as H5112; vagrancy; Nod, the land of Cain: - Nod.

H5112 nu?d
nood
A primitive root; to nod, that is, waver; figuratively to wander, flee, disappear; also (from shaking the head in sympathy), to console, deplore, or (from tossing the head in scorn) taunt: - bemoan, flee, get, mourn, make to move, take pity, remove, shake, skip for joy, be sorry, vagabond, way, wandering.

There are massive problems here: several traditions and beliefs explained things the way various people saw creation and, only where they clashed, did they try to explain any further. I suspect, without much evidence, that this was done at the time of King Jehoram who was an absolute fundamentalist ruler and ardent Godbotherer who desired to see all Yahwist superstition brought under one roof, just in case he offended Yahweh by leaving out a bit.

A similar set of two stories can be seen in the story of the Flood. There are disagreements of the numbers of animals, etc., as the competing ideas vied for a mention.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 07:29:27 AM by Graybeard »
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Offline Lectus

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Re: Why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2013, 08:22:34 AM »
"You cannot be moral without god."  "Morality comes from god."  "We need the ten commandments in the courthouses."

Evidently, we need god and his laws to guide use throughout life, and to provide order to society.

With that in mind, why didn't god lay down the laws in Genesis?  Instead, he waited until Exodus to list down his set of rules.  Sure, he gave out a rule or commandment every now and then, but nothing like the detailed set of laws that he provided to Moses.

It's not like he didn't have time to do so.  Adam lived for 930 years.  That's plenty of time.  Perhaps that would've prevented Abel from getting killed.  He also had the opportunity after the flood, with only eight people to deal with.  Again, he didn't bother.  The book of Genesis covers... what, a 2,000 years period? (keeping in mind how long people lived back then)  It took god that long to explain the rules?

If we need gods laws to run society, and god didn't provide, doesn't that mean that the early civilizations (I'm looking at the flood time) were doomed to failure?

I think God HAD to let the sin happen by not giving them the rules.

Just like he had to create Lucifer to rebel and become Satan.

If he didn't do that we'd have to live in a perfect world. It's not fun for God to watch a perfect world. That's like playing World of Warcraft without any danger.

Err... screw that! That was a man made story of course. Men don't have a big imagination to create a plot line without the key elements: the good guy, the bad guy, some kind of drama, some innocent killed for added emotion, the good guy wins at the end.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.