Author Topic: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?  (Read 4378 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #261 on: November 11, 2013, 04:43:44 AM »

Just because someone has an objection doesn't mean it's valid,

On that we sure as hell agree. Its a pretty silly OP in my opinion. Almost rhetorical. Still, its been a fun afternoon, I can't deny.
It's only rhetorical because you can't come up with an articulate response, go back and read all of yours and skeptics posts, they're nothing but dodges and non-answers.

So you desire an irrefutable argument about why we don't have an irrefutable argument?

What sort of response would actually be acceptable?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #262 on: November 11, 2013, 04:45:11 AM »
It doesn't disregard them. It means I find the passage I cite from Romans, along with my observance of humanity, more compelling.

Paul found it compelling, so he made the idea up. Just because Paul says it, does not mean that it's true.

It's compelling propaganda.

Made a lot more compelling to me since I've been on this forum, believe you me.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #263 on: November 11, 2013, 04:45:38 AM »

Just because someone has an objection doesn't mean it's valid,

On that we sure as hell agree. Its a pretty silly OP in my opinion. Almost rhetorical. Still, its been a fun afternoon, I can't deny.
It's only rhetorical because you can't come up with an articulate response, go back and read all of yours and skeptics posts, they're nothing but dodges and non-answers.

So you desire an irrefutable argument about why we don't have an irrefutable argument?

What sort of response would actually be acceptable?

No, we want a reason, if you can provide an irrefutable argument that's awesome, but it's not the purpose of the thread.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #264 on: November 11, 2013, 04:46:01 AM »
You you find a single passage more compelling than many people stating "i do not believe in god, in any way, shape or form!"?

Did you read my post on the subject?
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #265 on: November 11, 2013, 04:46:27 AM »
It doesn't disregard them. It means I find the passage I cite from Romans, along with my observance of humanity, more compelling.

Paul found it compelling, so he made the idea up. Just because Paul says it, does not mean that it's true.

It's compelling propaganda.

Made a lot more compelling to me since I've been on this forum, believe you me.

I find a frog shitting out a turtle more compelling than that passage to be completely honest.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #266 on: November 11, 2013, 04:49:31 AM »


No, we want a reason,

Because everything can and will be disputed, whether rationally or not. There's a reason. Perhaps you don't like that reason. Perhaps we could keep suggesting reasons, but perhaps you wouldn't like any of them. Perhaps you could save us some effort by nominating a reason you'd like.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #267 on: November 11, 2013, 04:49:38 AM »
[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
[16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

It's the same sort of statement that Islam makes: that we are all Muslims until we convert to another religion. Paul (cunningly) says that a component of his religion, when observed by others, is proof that they are subconsciously worshipping his God. It's like saying that the Aztecs sacrificed overgrown guinea pigs, so they are really Jews, so we can kill them according to Jewish law.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #268 on: November 11, 2013, 04:50:45 AM »
It doesn't disregard them. It means I find the passage I cite from Romans, along with my observance of humanity, more compelling.

Paul found it compelling, so he made the idea up. Just because Paul says it, does not mean that it's true.

It's compelling propaganda.

Made a lot more compelling to me since I've been on this forum, believe you me.

I find a frog shitting out a turtle more compelling than that passage to be completely honest.

Hey, that's hyperbole. Not allowed here sunshine. Serious discussion.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #269 on: November 11, 2013, 04:51:13 AM »


No, we want a reason,

Because everything can and will be disputed, whether rationally or not. There's a reason. Perhaps you don't like that reason. Perhaps we could keep suggesting reasons, but perhaps you wouldn't like any of them. Perhaps you could save us some effort by nominating a reason you'd like.

Perhaps you could actually provide a reason rather than just continually dodge the question.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #270 on: November 11, 2013, 04:52:42 AM »
It doesn't disregard them. It means I find the passage I cite from Romans, along with my observance of humanity, more compelling.

Paul found it compelling, so he made the idea up. Just because Paul says it, does not mean that it's true.

It's compelling propaganda.

Made a lot more compelling to me since I've been on this forum, believe you me.

I find a frog shitting out a turtle more compelling than that passage to be completely honest.

Hey, that's hyperbole. Not allowed here sunshine. Serious discussion.

No it was sarcasm, and don't call me sunshine.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #271 on: November 11, 2013, 04:53:22 AM »
Made a lot more compelling to me since I've been on this forum, believe you me.

How can it be compelling, since any other religion can claim the same thing?
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #272 on: November 11, 2013, 04:54:02 AM »
Made a lot more compelling to me since I've been on this forum, believe you me.

How can it be compelling, since any other religion can claim the same thing?
Which was the point of my sarcastic frog-turtle post.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #273 on: November 11, 2013, 04:54:17 AM »
Hey, that's hyperbole. Not allowed here sunshine. Serious discussion.

Already been corrected, but eh.
Its called sarcasm...

Did you read my post on the subject?

Yes.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #274 on: November 11, 2013, 04:54:44 AM »


No, we want a reason,

Because everything can and will be disputed, whether rationally or not. There's a reason. Perhaps you don't like that reason. Perhaps we could keep suggesting reasons, but perhaps you wouldn't like any of them. Perhaps you could save us some effort by nominating a reason you'd like.


Perhaps you could actually provide a reason rather than just continually dodge the question.

Bolded.

What the fuck is that, if not a reason?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #275 on: November 11, 2013, 04:56:09 AM »
Made a lot more compelling to me since I've been on this forum, believe you me.

How can it be compelling, since any other religion can claim the same thing?

The mysteries of why one person finds something compelling and another doesn't are too great for me.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #276 on: November 11, 2013, 04:56:41 AM »


No, we want a reason,

Because everything can and will be disputed, whether rationally or not. There's a reason. Perhaps you don't like that reason. Perhaps we could keep suggesting reasons, but perhaps you wouldn't like any of them. Perhaps you could save us some effort by nominating a reason you'd like.


Perhaps you could actually provide a reason rather than just continually dodge the question.

Bolded.

What the fuck is that, if not a reason?

My misreading due to dyslexia, not entirely my fault, but I do concede and accept that reason.

EDIT:
However, that doesn't exactly cover why you don't have an "irrefutable" argument, just a disputable one.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #277 on: November 11, 2013, 04:58:48 AM »


No, we want a reason,

Because everything can and will be disputed, whether rationally or not. There's a reason. Perhaps you don't like that reason. Perhaps we could keep suggesting reasons, but perhaps you wouldn't like any of them. Perhaps you could save us some effort by nominating a reason you'd like.


Perhaps you could actually provide a reason rather than just continually dodge the question.

Bolded.

What the fuck is that, if not a reason?

My misreading due to dyslexia, not entirely my fault, but I do concede and accept that reason.

Fair enough.

I'm going home now.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #278 on: November 11, 2013, 04:59:37 AM »
The mysteries of why one person finds something compelling and another doesn't are too great for me.

So if i said that Allah is the one true god, and your god can suck it, you would not care?
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #279 on: November 11, 2013, 04:59:44 AM »
The mysteries of why one person finds something compelling and another doesn't are too great for me.

Sounds like you couldn't answer that one.

Think about this, also, when Paul claims Gentiles are doing works of Law, what percentage of the Law is he talking about? He gets a bit vague there, because if someone else in the world doesn't kill someone, they are adhering to Jewish law.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #280 on: November 11, 2013, 05:00:26 AM »
The mysteries of why one person finds something compelling and another doesn't are too great for me.

Not for me, the passage is ridiculous, and rather vague. Replace a few words, and you can have a compelling argument for why everyone really believes the moon is made out of cheese, or the Sun is really a giant halogen lightbulb suspended on a Llama's back
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #281 on: November 11, 2013, 05:01:22 AM »

EDIT:
However, that doesn't exactly cover why you don't have an "irrefutable" argument, just a disputable one.

And....back we go to the broadness of the 'irrefutable' definition. If it's disputable, it's refutable. If we can't provide an indisputable argument neither can we provide an irrefutable argument.

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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #282 on: November 11, 2013, 05:03:33 AM »

EDIT:
However, that doesn't exactly cover why you don't have an "irrefutable" argument, just a disputable one.

And....back we go to the broadness of the 'irrefutable' definition. If it's disputable, it's refutable. If we can't provide an indisputable argument neither can we provide an irrefutable argument.

Just because you claim the definition is broad, doesn't make it so. The definition is actually pretty rigid, with a clear line of what qualifies and what doesn't.

EDIT:
To make this clear, you can dispute something in an intellectual discourse and STILL find that you are unable to refute it in it's entirety. We're not asking for an indisputable argument, just one where we can have an intelligent discourse and at the end of the day walk away with both sides feeling like they've thoroughly exhausted all options.

Your side has not provided such an argument, as most of them can either be refuted with minimal effort, or simply discarded as being logically fallacious.

EDIT2:
also, Synonym does NOT necessarily mean that it has the same meaning, just a similar one.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synonym
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 05:29:05 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #283 on: November 11, 2013, 05:47:49 AM »
http://www.commonlaw.com/Hammurabi.html

Law of Hammurabi. These laws were stolen from the Jews, approximately 1000 years before Jewish law was written. There is some interesting morality in there. Quite a lot of death penalty. Around law 221, we see that they were surgically removing cataracts(?) but a bit risky for the surgeon.

Hammurabi was obviously a subconscious Jew.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #284 on: November 11, 2013, 05:52:59 AM »
http://www.commonlaw.com/Hammurabi.html

Law of Hammurabi. These laws were stolen from the Jews, approximately 1000 years before Jewish law was written. There is some interesting morality in there. Quite a lot of death penalty. Around law 221, we see that they were surgically removing cataracts(?) but a bit risky for the surgeon.

Hammurabi was obviously a subconscious Jew.

Wow that was a depressing read, I only read about the first 20 :/
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #285 on: November 11, 2013, 07:30:43 AM »
As the title says; why don't Christians have an irrefutable argument that no unbeliever could deny? Surely a god capable of speaking the universe into existence can manage this?
No problem with free will then (apart from the obvious one about Him knowing what I will do). Why don't you have this? If your god is real and true, you should have.
I think someone would really have to provide some form of proof that a god exists to ever have a valid argument.
Simply quoting from a book(s) is never going to convince me as I'm sure it wouldn't convince many others.
I know I have asked this before but is there anything anywhere outside of a book(s) that would point to a god(s) existing?
no evidence = no argument
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #286 on: November 11, 2013, 07:31:52 AM »
And....back we go to the broadness of the 'irrefutable' definition. If it's disputable, it's refutable. If we can't provide an indisputable argument neither can we provide an irrefutable argument.

So far as I am concerned, any irrefutable argument would progress like this.

Person A: states argument, in detail.
Person B: raises potential exception, question, concern.
Person A: comprehensively addresses Person B's point.

Repeat until every Person B's concerns have been fully addressed.  At THAT point, you could perhaps be said to have an irrefutable argument (at least so far as the people who have been involved are concerned). 

So far as I am concerned, also, any part of the argument must be capable of being tested and refuted - for example "I am thinking of an apple" may well be technically irrefutable (because there is no way that it can be demonstrated that I am not), but I would NOT regard that as passing the "irrefutability test" so far as we are concerned here, because it is indistinguishable from the claim "I am NOT thinking of an apple": any proposition where the reverse is exactly as unaddressable does not pass the irrefutable test, for me.

But I honestly don't believe that that has happened with ANY of the proposed irrefutable arguments that have come forward - though I admit it is possible that the "scattergun" approach that occurs in a multi-person debate could be to blame.  I offered it to Skeptic (who doesn't appear to want to take me up on it), but I'll make the same suggestion: anyone with what they believe is an irrefutable argument should take that into a 1-on-1 in the debate rooms, and the "challenger" (so to speak) can include any points that the peanut gallery wish to raise.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #287 on: November 11, 2013, 08:08:21 AM »
And....back we go to the broadness of the 'irrefutable' definition. If it's disputable, it's refutable. If we can't provide an indisputable argument neither can we provide an irrefutable argument.

So far as I am concerned, any irrefutable argument would progress like this.

Person A: states argument, in detail.
Person B: raises potential exception, question, concern.
Person A: comprehensively addresses Person B's point.

Repeat until every Person B's concerns have been fully addressed.  At THAT point, you could perhaps be said to have an irrefutable argument (at least so far as the people who have been involved are concerned). 

So far as I am concerned, also, any part of the argument must be capable of being tested and refuted - for example "I am thinking of an apple" may well be technically irrefutable (because there is no way that it can be demonstrated that I am not), but I would NOT regard that as passing the "irrefutability test" so far as we are concerned here, because it is indistinguishable from the claim "I am NOT thinking of an apple": any proposition where the reverse is exactly as unaddressable does not pass the irrefutable test, for me.

But I honestly don't believe that that has happened with ANY of the proposed irrefutable arguments that have come forward - though I admit it is possible that the "scattergun" approach that occurs in a multi-person debate could be to blame.  I offered it to Skeptic (who doesn't appear to want to take me up on it), but I'll make the same suggestion: anyone with what they believe is an irrefutable argument should take that into a 1-on-1 in the debate rooms, and the "challenger" (so to speak) can include any points that the peanut gallery wish to raise.


That's exactly the point I was hoping they would extrapolate, unfortunately for me however, they don't seem capable of performing such a feat.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #288 on: November 11, 2013, 08:27:05 AM »
I feel I also need to re-quote the OP:

...why don't Christians have an irrefutable argument that no unbeliever could deny?

To be brutally frank, smug responses that insinuate that atheists are too blinkered, or whatever, don't really cut it for me.  If there is a supreme omnimax deity that created the universe and everything in it, then it should go withour saying that that being could have easily and simply ensured that a genuinely irrefutable argument was available. 

And not just available, but so "in your face" and obvious that Christians would be comparing it to the argument that "night is dark" and declaring the latter far too complicated and obtuse.  There is a PC in front of me, my shirt is blue, the time is 13:22, god exists.  Anyone and everyone in the same room would be entirely unable to refute the first three points - would not even bother attempting to try - so why, with an omnimax god, is the fourth such a different proposition?

That's what I just don't get: why it is possible for us to be having these arguments over the "irrefutability" of GOD in the first place.  Think about it, believer guys.  Why are you not able to say "well, the irrefutable argument for god is this.....", and have everyone just go "oh.  Yes, of course.  Obvious.  No arguments there."?  Not just today, but for the last few thousand years?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #289 on: November 11, 2013, 09:21:13 AM »
http://www.commonlaw.com/Hammurabi.html

Law of Hammurabi.

Quote
3. If a man has borne false witness in a trial, or has not established the statement that he has made, if that case be a capital trial, that man shall be put to death.


bold mine.  It looks like we'll have to put skeptic to death.  He has not established any statements he has made.

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