Author Topic: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?  (Read 4934 times)

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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #232 on: November 11, 2013, 03:55:11 AM »



EDIT:  FYI, fellow atheists who find magicmiles to be an agreeable chap on here, what with his very agreeable demeanor.  MM is 100% convinced that you believe in his god, deep down, in your heart of hearts, and are just deluding yourself into thinking that you don't believe in it.  To him, your beliefs (or lack thereof) on the topic are not genuine.

Just so people know where they stand with you, magicmiles.

Thankyou Azdgari. I've linked the post you refer to below, and its reply 287:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24696.msg551081.html#msg551081

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #233 on: November 11, 2013, 03:56:34 AM »
Here's one: http://www1.umn.edu/ships/evolutionofmorality/images/10b-1.htm
I need more  ;)  Meerkats are little shits. They pissed inside my tent and stole my bananas and crackers.

Morality does not extend to other species - like we are allowed, morally, to kill cows and meercats if we want to, so by reciprocity, meercats are allowed to kill us, and still be moral.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #234 on: November 11, 2013, 03:58:29 AM »
Here's one: http://www1.umn.edu/ships/evolutionofmorality/images/10b-1.htm
I need more  ;)  Meerkats are little shits. They pissed inside my tent and stole my bananas and crackers.

Morality does not extend to other species - like we are allowed, morally, to kill cows and meercats if we want to, so by reciprocity, meercats are allowed to kill us, and still be moral.

And by that virtue, we can claim that objective moral values do not, in fact, exist and use this as evidence.
If objective moral values did exist, they would be universal and observed by all species.

It's interesting that it's immoral to kill a fellow human, but it's fair game to kill any other animal, why the discrepancy if OMVs existed?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 04:00:39 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #235 on: November 11, 2013, 04:00:58 AM »
...other than the baseline "devoutness" required for you to call them Christians in the first place.  It's semantic.

No, it really isn't. It's an important distinction between the two faiths.

What level of devoutness of belief is required for you to call someone a Christian?  Keep in mind what I've just brought up regarding your own position on all of humanity, that you think everyone believes in your god, deep down.  So belief isn't the determining factor, or you'd call everyone here a Christian.  Some level of devoutness must be - for example, "accepting Jesus Christ into their hearts".  That would be a measure of devoutness.

You know what? I've totally mis-interpreted the use of the word 'devout'. I've been taking it to mean something akin to legalism, when you intend it to mean something more like faith and repentance. Silly of me.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #236 on: November 11, 2013, 04:02:21 AM »
...other than the baseline "devoutness" required for you to call them Christians in the first place.  It's semantic.

No, it really isn't. It's an important distinction between the two faiths.

What level of devoutness of belief is required for you to call someone a Christian?  Keep in mind what I've just brought up regarding your own position on all of humanity, that you think everyone believes in your god, deep down.  So belief isn't the determining factor, or you'd call everyone here a Christian.  Some level of devoutness must be - for example, "accepting Jesus Christ into their hearts".  That would be a measure of devoutness.

You know what? I've totally mis-interpreted the use of the word 'devout'. I've been taking it to mean something akin to legalism, when you intend it to mean something more like faith and repentance. Silly of me.

Looking at the context, I don't see how you would make that mistake. It seems rather obvious what exactly he meant by 'devout'
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #237 on: November 11, 2013, 04:02:26 AM »



EDIT:  FYI, fellow atheists who find magicmiles to be an agreeable chap on here, what with his very agreeable demeanor.  MM is 100% convinced that you believe in his god, deep down, in your heart of hearts, and are just deluding yourself into thinking that you don't believe in it.  To him, your beliefs (or lack thereof) on the topic are not genuine.

Just so people know where they stand with you, magicmiles.

Thankyou Azdgari. I've linked the post you refer to below, and its reply 287:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24696.msg551081.html#msg551081

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.

That makes no sense at all. Did your avatar cat type that?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #238 on: November 11, 2013, 04:04:52 AM »



EDIT:  FYI, fellow atheists who find magicmiles to be an agreeable chap on here, what with his very agreeable demeanor.  MM is 100% convinced that you believe in his god, deep down, in your heart of hearts, and are just deluding yourself into thinking that you don't believe in it.  To him, your beliefs (or lack thereof) on the topic are not genuine.

Just so people know where they stand with you, magicmiles.

Thankyou Azdgari. I've linked the post you refer to below, and its reply 287:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24696.msg551081.html#msg551081

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.

That makes no sense at all. Did your avatar cat type that?

No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.

Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.

Edit:
You also have yet to respond to the definitions I linked to, do you accept the definitions of irrefutable I've provided?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 04:07:20 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #239 on: November 11, 2013, 04:06:08 AM »
MM, it is true that you believe all people deep down believe in god?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #240 on: November 11, 2013, 04:08:47 AM »
Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?

Can anyone say, 'compensating'?

It occurs to me that the dictionary definitions of irrefutable are so broad that you'd struggle to find anything truly irrefutable.

No, the definition of irrefutable is pretty rigid:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irrefutable
http://thesaurus.com/browse/irrefutable (the reason I posted this should be obvious
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/irrefutable
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-english/irrefutable

Not much variation.

Aha. So according to some of the definitions/synonyms cited, all I need to do, all anyone needs to do to render something refutable is to dispute it. Or question it. Or raise an if or but.

Good luck achieving that. You'll find an objection to anything.

edit -  I had typed irrefutable instead of refutable where bolded.


« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 04:25:12 AM by magicmiles »
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #241 on: November 11, 2013, 04:08:53 AM »
Looking at the context, I don't see how you would make that mistake. It seems rather obvious what exactly he meant by 'devout'

MM was the first to use the word, so it wasn't so much that he misread me, as it was that he wasn't using the right word.  Sometimes we use the wrong word.  I am curious as to what word he would insert in its place now, though.

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.

That makes no sense at all. Did your avatar cat type that?

Holding bigoted beliefs about other people and refusing to change those beliefs in light of information about those people, any of them, is intellectually dishonest.  Antidote is wrong in that being proud of it isn't dishonest; instead, being proud of it is arrogant and ignorant.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #242 on: November 11, 2013, 04:11:44 AM »
Aha. So according to some of the definitions/synonyms cited, all I need to do, all anyone needs to do to render something irrefutable is to dispute it. Or question it. Or raise an if or but.

Good luck achieving that. You'll find an objection to anything.
Just because someone has an objection doesn't mean it's valid, simply asserting something is refuted is one thing, but demonstrating HOW and WHY, successfully refutes it. You disputing it does nothing to change it's refutability, unless of course you can prove your dispute valid.

And no, the synonyms do not suggest what you're suggesting.
The definitions all corroborate each other, so saying "some" of the definitions is dishonest, the only real change is the wording.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 04:20:13 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #243 on: November 11, 2013, 04:16:29 AM »
I think that giant re-quote of the thread title has been re-quoted enough times...kind of starting to hurt the eyes.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #244 on: November 11, 2013, 04:17:41 AM »
I think that giant re-quote of the thread title has been re-quoted enough times...kind of starting to hurt the eyes.
Oops, i'll fix it xD

EDIT:
Fixed, sorry about that Adz.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #245 on: November 11, 2013, 04:22:03 AM »
Holding bigoted beliefs about other people and refusing to change those beliefs in light of information about those people, any of them, is intellectually dishonest.  Antidote is wrong in that being proud of it isn't dishonest; instead, being proud of it is arrogant and ignorant.
I didn't say it made him dishonest, I just said it reinforces the notion, though I can understand the confusion of the verbage.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #246 on: November 11, 2013, 04:22:09 AM »

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.


No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.
Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.


Bold mine. If you accept that I believe what I say I believe, how can you then also say I'm being intellectually dishonest?

It might be arrogant, it might be disrespectful (though I don't intend it to be), it might even be wrong. But it is not intellectually dishonest.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #247 on: November 11, 2013, 04:23:27 AM »
MM, it is true that you believe all people deep down believe in god?

Yes. Please read the post I linked to if you would like that explained.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #248 on: November 11, 2013, 04:24:10 AM »

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.


No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.
Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.


Bold mine. If you accept that I believe what I say I believe, how can you then also say I'm being intellectually dishonest?

It might be arrogant, it might be disrespectful (though I don't intend it to be), it might even be wrong. But it is not intellectually dishonest.

I never made the claim that you were intellectually dishonest, I just said it reinforced the notion. I do admit that what I said can be misconstrued as such, but it was not what I intended.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #249 on: November 11, 2013, 04:28:23 AM »
Looking at the context, I don't see how you would make that mistake. It seems rather obvious what exactly he meant by 'devout'

MM was the first to use the word, so it wasn't so much that he misread me, as it was that he wasn't using the right word.  Sometimes we use the wrong word.  I am curious as to what word he would insert in its place now, though.


Probably something more like repentant or humble.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #250 on: November 11, 2013, 04:30:13 AM »
Or honestly ignorant...

Honest...but incorrect...
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #251 on: November 11, 2013, 04:32:46 AM »

Just because someone has an objection doesn't mean it's valid,

On that we sure as hell agree. Its a pretty silly OP in my opinion. Almost rhetorical. Still, its been a fun afternoon, I can't deny.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #252 on: November 11, 2013, 04:33:41 AM »

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.


No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.
Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.


Bold mine. If you accept that I believe what I say I believe, how can you then also say I'm being intellectually dishonest?

It might be arrogant, it might be disrespectful (though I don't intend it to be), it might even be wrong. But it is not intellectually dishonest.

There's no might about it.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #253 on: November 11, 2013, 04:33:46 AM »

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.


No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.
Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.


Bold mine. If you accept that I believe what I say I believe, how can you then also say I'm being intellectually dishonest?

It might be arrogant, it might be disrespectful (though I don't intend it to be), it might even be wrong. But it is not intellectually dishonest.

By stating that I believe in my heart that your particular god exists, completely disregards my opinions, views, and knowledge of the subject.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #254 on: November 11, 2013, 04:34:20 AM »

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.


No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.
Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.


Bold mine. If you accept that I believe what I say I believe, how can you then also say I'm being intellectually dishonest?

It might be arrogant, it might be disrespectful (though I don't intend it to be), it might even be wrong. But it is not intellectually dishonest.

I never made the claim that you were intellectually dishonest, I just said it reinforced the notion. I do admit that what I said can be misconstrued as such, but it was not what I intended.

Fair enough.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #255 on: November 11, 2013, 04:35:11 AM »

Just because someone has an objection doesn't mean it's valid,

On that we sure as hell agree. Its a pretty silly OP in my opinion. Almost rhetorical. Still, its been a fun afternoon, I can't deny.
It's only rhetorical because you can't come up with an articulate response, go back and read all of yours and skeptics posts, they're nothing but dodges and non-answers.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #256 on: November 11, 2013, 04:37:53 AM »

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.


No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.
Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.


Bold mine. If you accept that I believe what I say I believe, how can you then also say I'm being intellectually dishonest?

It might be arrogant, it might be disrespectful (though I don't intend it to be), it might even be wrong. But it is not intellectually dishonest.

By stating that I believe in my heart that your particular god exists, completely disregards my opinions, views, and knowledge of the subject.

It doesn't disregard them. It means I find the passage I cite from Romans, along with my observance of humanity, more compelling.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #257 on: November 11, 2013, 04:39:43 AM »

Being proud of this only reinforces the fact that you're intellectually dishonest.


No, it makes perfect sense to anyone that is willing to accept the fact that others don't believe exactly as you do, which I'm willing to do. I think what you believe is hogwash, but I'm not going to claim that you don't believe it yourself.
Despite being raised by a christian mother, I've never been christian, by asserting that I believe that YOUR particular god exists, you are being intellectually dishonest.


Bold mine. If you accept that I believe what I say I believe, how can you then also say I'm being intellectually dishonest?

It might be arrogant, it might be disrespectful (though I don't intend it to be), it might even be wrong. But it is not intellectually dishonest.

By stating that I believe in my heart that your particular god exists, completely disregards my opinions, views, and knowledge of the subject.

It doesn't disregard them. It means I find the passage I cite from Romans, along with my observance of humanity, more compelling.

I know which passage you're talking about, and I find that it disregards them, you may not, but by using that particular passage it makes it seem like you do, in fact, disregard them.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #258 on: November 11, 2013, 04:42:02 AM »
You you find a single passage more compelling than many people stating "i do not believe in god, in any way, shape or form!"?
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #259 on: November 11, 2013, 04:42:52 AM »
You you find a single passage more compelling than many people stating "i do not believe in god, in any way, shape or form!"?
But angus, that's an Argument ad.. oh wait.

Edit:
damn dyslexia
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #260 on: November 11, 2013, 04:43:00 AM »
It doesn't disregard them. It means I find the passage I cite from Romans, along with my observance of humanity, more compelling.

Paul found it compelling, so he made the idea up. Just because Paul says it, does not mean that it's true.

It's compelling propaganda.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.