Author Topic: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?  (Read 3340 times)

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #145 on: November 10, 2013, 11:37:47 PM »
You can actually rule out a WHY, by explaining HOW.

So, if I presented a computer to a noble savage, he would most likely deduce that it had been created by Gods, and it had been given to him, so that he could rule the world, and bring his new computer religion to the world.

Explaining HOW the computer actually works to him, would tend eradicate his previous explanations of WHY it existed.

In the same way, the orbit of the moon was previously believed to be part of a divine plan, enacted by God. The moon moved on a crystal sphere in the heavens, supervised by God. Newton found out HOW the moon actually moved, and that  destroyed WHY.

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #146 on: November 10, 2013, 11:45:22 PM »
Which is badly flawed, since morality tends to vary widely between cultures and even within them.  The fact that you have to claim that demons are responsible for this is a dead giveaway of just how badly flawed an argument it is.

Is rape always wrong? Yes or no?

Which is also badly flawed, given the sheer number of problems that humans (and other animals in their own turn) have to deal with, and the various things that point to evolutionary development of humans from preceding animals.  I suppose you blame this on demons, or sin, or something?

Could we live without the stuff that you are complaining about?
Yes or no?

This depends utterly on the premise that a god is necessary for knowledge to exist.  However, there is no reason to accept the premise to begin with, since there is no reason to assume that knowledge could not exist without a god to provide it.  So there's no reason to treat this as a valid argument.

Knowledge is only possible in an orderly universe that was created with a purpose.

This is why many of the great scientists that got the ball rolling were Christians. The Bible teaches an orderly universe so they wanted to get out there and study God's creation and how it ticks.


There's a fatal flaw in this that no theist has ever been able to explain.  If you have an uncaused cause, why then complicate it by assuming it must be an actual being, since the existence of such a being implies prior causes?

An infinite eternal being requires no cause.
That's what "infinite" and "eternal" mean.

Examples?

Minds
Mathematics
External world

More accurately, no amount of logic and reason can convince you of anything you aren't already prepared to believe.

No, we accept the evidence.
We just don't believe every piece of "evidence" is correct.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #147 on: November 10, 2013, 11:48:58 PM »
Knowledge is only possible in an orderly universe that was created with a purpose.

You know this, of course, because you've looked at those other universes that don't have purposes, and seen how knowledge wasn't possible in them.

Unless you're lying.


Either or.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #148 on: November 10, 2013, 11:56:01 PM »
 Rape is not wrong in the eyes of God,but is in the minds of LAW-ABIDING men,but not ALL men. Religious SAVAGE men view rape as an OK thing,otherwise how do you explain child fucking priests? A high rape statistic still exists in all parts of the world where religion exists,why?

 In the eyes of your god,rape victims must MARRY the rapist,and skep I think these sick fucks just use religion as an excuse. We are in agreement on that.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #149 on: November 11, 2013, 12:01:03 AM »
Examples?

Minds
Mathematics
External world

What about minds?

Mathematics is a human concept, which has demonstrable predictive powers.

Define "External world".
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2013, 12:05:46 AM »
Religious SAVAGE men view rape as an OK thing,otherwise how do you explain child fucking priests?

You can answer your own question by undertaking the following exercise:

Think of all the things you have done in your life that were harmful to others, whether in a minor or major way. Then, consider whether you did those things because you genuinely thought they were OK to do, or if you did them in spite of knowing they were not OK to do.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2013, 12:13:53 AM »
Is rape always wrong? Yes or no?

In My eyes, it is always wrong.  I would have no qualms whatsoever about using lethal force to defend Myself against such an attack.

Quote
An infinite eternal being requires no cause.

First you have to demonstrate empirically that such a being actually exists.  You cannot just define it into existence by declaring that it has to be there, and that it's both eternal and causeless.

I have far less of a problem with the idea that some very basic form of matter/energy has always been there.  It seems unspeakably absurd to Me to have quarks and other simple particles "created," but a complex, sentient creator-god always there.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2013, 12:17:07 AM »
Religious SAVAGE men view rape as an OK thing,otherwise how do you explain child fucking priests?

You can answer your own question by undertaking the following exercise:

Think of all the things you have done in your life that were harmful to others, whether in a minor or major way. Then, consider whether you did those things because you genuinely thought they were OK to do, or if you did them in spite of knowing they were not OK to do.
Can't think of anything I have done as being hurtful or terrible to others. Not in ways that would alter how they enjoy life. I really like how you skipped the part where I said religion was just an excuse for these monsters.

 MM can you think of things you have done in spite of the fact it may anger a god? A Priest raping an 8 yr old boy,in spite of the fact it will anger a god is not reasonable. The priest gets around punishment by admitting his "mistake" and accepting Jesus as his Lord.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2013, 12:19:40 AM »
MM is rape acceptable to God or not? If the victim marries the rapist it's OK with God,no? How do you get around how male dominant the Bible seems to be? Most of the civilized world has abandoned the male-centered view of the world.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 12:23:05 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #154 on: November 11, 2013, 12:22:41 AM »
You can answer your own question by undertaking the following exercise:

Think of all the things you have done in your life that were harmful to others, whether in a minor or major way. Then, consider whether you did those things because you genuinely thought they were OK to do, or if you did them in spite of knowing they were not OK to do.

So, you're asking him to think of the things he's done in his life that he believes are bad...and answer whether he believes them to be bad.

What is this supposed to demonstrate, again?
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2013, 12:25:55 AM »
It seems unspeakably absurd to Me to have quarks and other simple particles "created," but a complex, sentient creator-god always there.

You seem to be implying that it is more likely that if anything was 'always there' it would be something simple. Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if not, how is it more likely that something simple would always be there?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #156 on: November 11, 2013, 12:38:18 AM »
It seems unspeakably absurd to Me to have quarks and other simple particles "created," but a complex, sentient creator-god always there.

You seem to be implying that it is more likely that if anything was 'always there' it would be something simple. Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if not, how is it more likely that something simple would always be there?

I don't think that's what she's saying, due to one simple fact: Quarks have an interesting capability of being in many places at once, and even pop into existence from seemingly "nothing", quantum theory is a scary subject for the layman (myself included), but the math is strong and scientists have been able to use it's predictive capabilities in everyday applications.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #157 on: November 11, 2013, 12:42:35 AM »
Religious SAVAGE men view rape as an OK thing,otherwise how do you explain child fucking priests?

You can answer your own question by undertaking the following exercise:

Think of all the things you have done in your life that were harmful to others, whether in a minor or major way. Then, consider whether you did those things because you genuinely thought they were OK to do, or if you did them in spite of knowing they were not OK to do.
Can't think of anything I have done as being hurtful or terrible to others. Not in ways that would alter how they enjoy life.

That must make you practicaly unique in human history. Bear in mind I'm not suggesting it is likely you have done anything to seriously hurt or harm others, but I am sure if you thought hard enough, and honestly, you would come up with times you might have harmed somebody in a minor or temporary way. The point I am making is that on those occasions you probably took whatever action it happened to be (maybe even something as simple as teasing someone as a kid) with the full knowledge that you shouldn't be doing it. And I submit that in the horrific cases of priests raping children, they do so knowing it is wrong..


 I really like how you skipped the part where I said religion was just an excuse for these monsters.

Well you see, that part was you making a comment. I didn't feel the need to comment on your comment. The part I addressed was in response to a question, which I felt the need to answer, or suggest an answer. I'm glad you liked my decision.


 MM can you think of things you have done in spite of the fact it may anger a god?

In the last few hours, the last few days, or ever? Doesn't matter...it's the same resounding YES.


A Priest raping an 8 yr old boy,in spite of the fact it will anger a god is not reasonable. The priest gets around punishment by admitting his "mistake" and accepting Jesus as his Lord.

I fully sympathise with this perspective, mostly...but can you see that this perspective doesn't quite gel with the question you asked? 
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #158 on: November 11, 2013, 12:44:14 AM »
It seems unspeakably absurd to Me to have quarks and other simple particles "created," but a complex, sentient creator-god always there.

You seem to be implying that it is more likely that if anything was 'always there' it would be something simple. Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if not, how is it more likely that something simple would always be there?

I think she's saying that simple stuff can evolve without supervision, if it was "designed"* that way.

*where we don't specify whether "design" is engineered by intelligence, or simply a trial of everything possible, that looks like design.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #159 on: November 11, 2013, 12:47:40 AM »
horrific cases of priests raping children, they do so knowing it is wrong..

Where is this all going, exactly?

Are you arguing that we have an implicit feel of what is wrong, and that it came from God? Do you have an implicit instinct about Sabbath, sacrificing beef products, polygamy, masturbation, sex with sluts?
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #160 on: November 11, 2013, 12:51:09 AM »
You seem to be implying that it is more likely that if anything was 'always there' it would be something simple. Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if not, how is it more likely that something simple would always be there?

Essentially what I'm seeing is a difference in levels of organization.  An eternal god-like being would be organized enough to have sentience and the ability and desire to create a universe, but primordial matter-like substance would not require either sentience or any particular plans regarding universe-building.  It would simply be there, occasionally changing as the laws of physics acted upon it, and if a universe came into being it would be be simply because the conditions were right.

However, I'm not averse to the idea of a god-like being somehow evolving from such matter and then being able to act.  Perhaps its "mind" is no more than the interconnections between myriad subatomic particles -- A primitive neural network, as it were.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #161 on: November 11, 2013, 12:51:15 AM »
MM is rape acceptable to God or not?

No


If the victim marries the rapist it's OK with God,no?

No.

As an aside, it pisses me off something shocking when a question is asked in this fashion. (with 'no?' at the end of it)



How do you get around how male dominant the Bible seems to be? Most of the civilized world has abandoned the male-centered view of the world.

What do you mean 'how do I get around it'? Do you mean does it concern me? If that's what you mean, then no. Having said that, I am quite sure we have different opinions on just how male dominant the bible is, or what the bible teaches in respect of men and women. Perhaps we can discuss that sometime..I'm not minded to currently.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #162 on: November 11, 2013, 12:53:21 AM »
MM is rape acceptable to God or not?

No


If the victim marries the rapist it's OK with God,no?

No.

As an aside, it pisses me off something shocking when a question is asked in this fashion. (with 'no?' at the end of it)



How do you get around how male dominant the Bible seems to be? Most of the civilized world has abandoned the male-centered view of the world.

What do you mean 'how do I get around it'? Do you mean does it concern me? If that's what you mean, then no. Having said that, I am quite sure we have different opinions on just how male dominant the bible is, or what the bible teaches in respect of men and women. Perhaps we can discuss that sometime..I'm not minded to currently.

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
http://www.openbible.info/topics/rape
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/rape.html
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Rape/

Are you sure?
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #163 on: November 11, 2013, 12:53:53 AM »
You can answer your own question by undertaking the following exercise:

Think of all the things you have done in your life that were harmful to others, whether in a minor or major way. Then, consider whether you did those things because you genuinely thought they were OK to do, or if you did them in spite of knowing they were not OK to do.

So, you're asking him to think of the things he's done in his life that he believes are bad...and answer whether he believes them to be bad.

What is this supposed to demonstrate, again?

That isn't how I phrased my question.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #164 on: November 11, 2013, 12:54:06 AM »
If I or you,MM do something that creates harm is irrelevant. The fact that you or the priest view yourselves through belief in not God,but Jesus,you will be forgiven no matter how atrocious the act carried out against another person,where I avoid doing hurtful things,well because they are hurtful. You say you do things that are spite or hurtful,knowing they are wrong,why?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 12:56:56 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #165 on: November 11, 2013, 12:55:59 AM »
MM is rape acceptable to God or not?

No


If the victim marries the rapist it's OK with God,no?

No.

As an aside, it pisses me off something shocking when a question is asked in this fashion. (with 'no?' at the end of it)



How do you get around how male dominant the Bible seems to be? Most of the civilized world has abandoned the male-centered view of the world.

What do you mean 'how do I get around it'? Do you mean does it concern me? If that's what you mean, then no. Having said that, I am quite sure we have different opinions on just how male dominant the bible is, or what the bible teaches in respect of men and women. Perhaps we can discuss that sometime..I'm not minded to currently.

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
http://www.openbible.info/topics/rape
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/rape.html
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Rape/

Are you sure?
As you see here from these examples God is OK with rape
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #166 on: November 11, 2013, 01:03:38 AM »
horrific cases of priests raping children, they do so knowing it is wrong..

Where is this all going, exactly?

Are you arguing that we have an implicit feel of what is wrong, and that it came from God? Do you have an implicit instinct about Sabbath, sacrificing beef products, polygamy, masturbation, sex with sluts?

Was just answering the Monkeys question, that's all. He was trying to think of a reason why a priest would do something horrific other than the priest thought it was OK. I sought to point out that we do things wrong, we generally know they are wrong or shouldn't be done.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #167 on: November 11, 2013, 01:05:14 AM »
You seem to be implying that it is more likely that if anything was 'always there' it would be something simple. Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if not, how is it more likely that something simple would always be there?

Essentially what I'm seeing is a difference in levels of organization.  An eternal god-like being would be organized enough to have sentience and the ability and desire to create a universe, but primordial matter-like substance would not require either sentience or any particular plans regarding universe-building.  It would simply be there, occasionally changing as the laws of physics acted upon it, and if a universe came into being it would be be simply because the conditions were right.

However, I'm not averse to the idea of a god-like being somehow evolving from such matter and then being able to act.  Perhaps its "mind" is no more than the interconnections between myriad subatomic particles -- A primitive neural network, as it were.

I think I need more coffee before I can digest that... :)

Thanks for responding.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #168 on: November 11, 2013, 01:07:24 AM »
Rape is not wrong in the eyes of God,but is in the minds of LAW-ABIDING men,but not ALL men. Religious SAVAGE men view rape as an OK thing,otherwise how do you explain child fucking priests? A high rape statistic still exists in all parts of the world where religion exists,why?

 In the eyes of your god,rape victims must MARRY the rapist,and skep I think these sick fucks just use religion as an excuse. We are in agreement on that.

That is exactly what I have been saying all along! This is fantastic!

Religion is not the problem in the world. The problem is people doing whatever they want and just using religion as the excuse. This is how we get the Crusades. Atheists would have us think it meant NOTHING except "Convert or die!"

The truth of the matter is that the Crusades were about land and power. They wanted the land so they took it. They wanted power and control over the land. They didn't care what religion the people were. They just wanted them out of there so they can get the land and they used religion as an excuse. And then atheists say, "See! Look what religion does!"

I am very surprised how often this strawman gets repeated by the "intellectual atheists."

No Bible believing true Christian would ever be caught dead taking land from God's special human creations. This is why Christians such as Dr. Maritn Luther King JR came along to convince a godless nation that we need to revert back to the biblical principle that all men are created equal.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:10:49 AM by skeptic54768 »

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #169 on: November 11, 2013, 01:09:00 AM »
Rape is not wrong in the eyes of God,but is in the minds of LAW-ABIDING men,but not ALL men. Religious SAVAGE men view rape as an OK thing,otherwise how do you explain child fucking priests? A high rape statistic still exists in all parts of the world where religion exists,why?

 In the eyes of your god,rape victims must MARRY the rapist,and skep I think these sick fucks just use religion as an excuse. We are in agreement on that.

That is exactly what I have been saying all along! This is fantastic!

Religion is not the problem in the world. The problem is people doing whatever they want and just using religion as the excuse. This is how we get the Crusades. Atheists would have us think it meant NOTHING except "Convert or die!"

The truth of the matter is that the Crusades were about land and power. They wanted the land so they took it. They wanted power and control over the land. They didn't care what religion the people were. They just wanted them out of there so they can get the land and they used religion as an excuse. And then atheists say, "See! Look what religion does!"

I am very surprised how often this strawman gets repeated by the "intellectual atheists."

You're purposefully reading more into what he said than you should.

Also OP.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #170 on: November 11, 2013, 01:10:22 AM »
You say you do things that are spite or hurtful,knowing they are wrong,why?

Same reason as anyone else...selfishness, pride, envy, greed, stubbornness, malice.

That's not to say I revel in those things, or take pride in them. I hate that I do bad things and I fight against it. What I don't do is blithely carry on doing the wrong things thinking that I am sorted because of Jesus and therefore I can just do whatever. I don't know any Christian who has that attitude.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #171 on: November 11, 2013, 01:12:00 AM »
You say you do things that are spite or hurtful,knowing they are wrong,why?

Same reason as anyone else...selfishness, pride, envy, greed, stubbornness, malice.

That's not to say I revel in those things, or take pride in them. I hate that I do bad things and I fight against it. What I don't do is blithely carry on doing the wrong things thinking that I am sorted because of Jesus and therefore I can just do whatever. I don't know any Christian who has that attitude.

You have not responded to those links I provided; Are you sure that god is not OK with rape?
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #172 on: November 11, 2013, 01:15:59 AM »
skep religion and religious factions use God as an excuse,for power and ownership. They also use Jesus as an excuse or a reason they can do it.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #173 on: November 11, 2013, 01:16:43 AM »
You say you do things that are spite or hurtful,knowing they are wrong,why?

Same reason as anyone else...selfishness, pride, envy, greed, stubbornness, malice.

That's not to say I revel in those things, or take pride in them. I hate that I do bad things and I fight against it. What I don't do is blithely carry on doing the wrong things thinking that I am sorted because of Jesus and therefore I can just do whatever. I don't know any Christian who has that attitude.

You have not responded to those links I provided; Are you sure that god is not OK with rape?

I missed that post amongst all the others, apologies. And yes, I am quite sure. Perhaps one day we can discuss it in some detail. I really don't have the time now...I actually still need to provide substantial responses in some older threads first. I was just reading this thread quickly and couldn't resist answering 12M on something...and then Astreja...I'm easily drawn into these things.  :P

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.