Author Topic: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?  (Read 4920 times)

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2013, 02:21:14 AM »
To you, they have been refuted.

If the arguments were so good, everyone would see it and become atheist.

If the arguments you've listed were so good, everyone would see it and become christian.
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2013, 02:21:56 AM »
Because I know what the arguments say, and why the logical flaws to them.  I've refuted some of them myself, such as the design argument.  The design argument self-refutes, as its conclusion negates one of its premises.

Hatred or lack of hatred doesn't change that fact.

Please refute it.


"The Earth" is not an exact description, Skep.  Any knowledge that contradicts what you hold on faith, is an enemy of your faith.  Since the world is full of such knowledge, education in general is a dangerous enemy that you must oppose - even as you pay lip service to it.

No. We love education.

We just don't like evolution being taught to our children like it's the only possible truth.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2013, 02:24:35 AM »
Sure he did.  Probably just played along.  He was your friend, after all.  My friends and I used to do the same thing as kids when we imagined stuff like that (although usually less-creepy stuff than that).  Peer pressure is a powerful thing among friends.  You have a good friend there, who is so willing to play along with you.
.


Well, that's not what happened. I saw it on the wall and called him over and he looked at the wall and it disappeared in front of us and he freaked out and ran away.

Then later on in the day he called me over saying "it's back!" and I cam running and saw it and it disappeared in front of us again and he ran away again.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2013, 02:25:40 AM »
No. We love education.

We just don't like evolution being taught to our children like it's the only possible truth.

Your first sentence contradicts the second.  Evolution is overwhelmingly supported by evidence, so there's no reason why it shouldn't be taught to children.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2013, 02:27:17 AM »
No. We love education.

We just don't like evolution being taught to our children like it's the only possible truth.

If you love education, what are your qualifications to talk about any of the subjects you have mentioned?
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2013, 02:33:04 AM »
Please refute it.

Which version?  Generally they fail because they assume that we have a means to determine design from undesign, yet in their conclusion, they say that everything is designed.  But if everything is designed then we have no means to determine design from undesign, so it self-refutes.

No. We love education.

We just don't like evolution being taught to our children like it's the only possible truth.

You don't like anything being taught to your children that might confliect with the beliefs you've decided, on faith, to hold.

Such things abound in nature.  The world is full of knowledge that, if accepted, would conflict with faith-based beliefs.  Not just yours, but those of other theists - the ones you believe are demon-led.  They have faith, too.  Since the world contains so much knowledge that is a danger to various faiths, education must be avoided at all costs.  It is a direct enemy of faith.  Because as I said, once one gains an education in an area, one no longer needs faith in that area.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2013, 02:34:22 AM »
Well, that's not what happened. I saw it on the wall and called him over and he looked at the wall and it disappeared in front of us and he freaked out and ran away.

Then later on in the day he called me over saying "it's back!" and I cam running and saw it and it disappeared in front of us again and he ran away again.

That doesn't contradict my explantion in any way.  Heck, you don't even have a way to know if he really saw it.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2013, 02:43:34 AM »
Well, that's not what happened. I saw it on the wall and called him over and he looked at the wall and it disappeared in front of us and he freaked out and ran away.

Then later on in the day he called me over saying "it's back!" and I cam running and saw it and it disappeared in front of us again and he ran away again.

And why would perceived demonic activity make you think it had anything to do with Christianity?

Invite your friend to this site to talk about what he saw.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 02:54:42 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2013, 03:02:58 AM »
And why would perceived demonic activity make you think it had anything to do with Christianity?

That's an interesting question, especially in light of the fact that Skeptic refers to all other gods as "demons."  In that context, he could have a genuine divine experience but with the wrong god, and completely miss the message the god was trying to convey.

In fact, I suspect this has happened at least twice on this very board in the last week alone.   8)
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2013, 05:04:35 AM »
The fact that no amount of "logic and reason" can convince me to unsee writing in blood appearing and reappearing on my friend's wall. I saw it. It happened. No argument can change this.
With regard to an irrefutable point, would it not have been better to perhaps have put the writing in the sky where the message could have reached hundreds or thousands of people?
Do you not think it was a wasted effort to only show it to two people.
The point is that this event happened for only two of you and you have been given good explanations for how this could have occurred.
Perhaps a bit of SPAG here but  messages appearing in the sky would be a great way to point people in the right direction don't you think?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2013, 12:43:01 PM »
Education removes the need for faith in the area of that education, Skep.

Then again, that's not a point of inconsistency for you, as you vehemently oppose education...

No. Theists love education.

We just don't like people claiming that they empirically know exactly what existed billions of years ago when no one was around to empirically observe it.

This is an important point! Who was around to see the beginning of the world and the creation of man and animals? Who was around to see what happened in heaven before all this?

Who was around to see all the other gods and know about them?

Skeptic... I suggest you engage your brain before posting, that way the bullet wounds to your feet will not be so regular.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2013, 02:38:25 PM »
This is an important point! Who was around to see the beginning of the world and the creation of man and animals? Who was around to see what happened in heaven before all this?

Who was around to see all the other gods and know about them?

Skeptic... I suggest you engage your brain before posting, that way the bullet wounds to your feet will not be so regular.

I have a feeling his answer is going to be "goddidit".  Oh, and "all the other gods" are demons.

So who created all the demons?  I guess goddidit.   :o
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Offline Dominic

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2013, 01:31:42 AM »

The most irrefutable argument is consideration of the alternative.  If there is no intelligence behind the nature of the universe then everything arose by chance.   DNA for instance. 

Random chance vs purposeful intelligence. 

Purposeful intelligence is seen in every element of life down to the lowest observable point.

The irrefutable argument is the ridiculousness of the alternative - this being a random universe.

The belief that everything arose by chance is so much more extreme than the craziest of religions.  It is surprising that any self respecting and even minimally educated person can pretend to hold onto that position.



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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2013, 01:38:28 AM »
So the best argument there is, is an appeal to consequences fallacy?
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2013, 01:45:38 AM »

The most irrefutable argument is consideration of the alternative.  If there is no intelligence behind the nature of the universe then everything arose by chance.   DNA for instance. 

Random chance vs purposeful intelligence. 

Purposeful intelligence is seen in every element of life down to the lowest observable point.

The irrefutable argument is the ridiculousness of the alternative - this being a random universe.

The belief that everything arose by chance is so much more extreme than the craziest of religions.  It is surprising that any self respecting and even minimally educated person can pretend to hold onto that position.

Tell that to my trachea, if everything was purposeful as you claim, god is either demented, or incapable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebrate_trachea#Tracheal_diseases_and_conditions
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 01:47:27 AM by Antidote »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2013, 01:48:23 AM »
The fact that no amount of "logic and reason" can convince me to unsee writing in blood appearing and reappearing on my friend's wall. I saw it. It happened. No argument can change this.
This sounds like something someon with schizophrenia hallucinations would say.  As a point of comparison, my mom's ex's brother has schizophrenia, and would hallucinate things such as my mom's ex turning into Satan in front of him.  A friend of mine once went through a psychotic episode in which she firmly believed, and saw, Nazis chasing after her (she was Jewish at the time).  The mind can play very wierd tricks even when healthy, but in your case such hallucinations are probably to be expected.

It wasn't a hallucination. My friend saw it too. He had the exact same hallucination as me?


And - of course - neither of you had a camcorder or a cellphone at the time.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2013, 01:50:47 AM »
There are plenty of irrefutable arguments:

moral argument
design argument
transcendental argument
first cause argument
atheists believing in things that can't be empirically proven, but denying God exists by claiming it's not empirically proven.

skeptic54768, I will happily debate you, one on one, on ANY of those topics, to allow you to demonstrate the irrefutable proof of your particular god.     Let me know which one you want to do, and I'll get a debate room set up.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline William

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2013, 02:13:45 AM »
Purposeful intelligence is seen in every element of life down to the lowest observable point.

The irrefutable argument is the ridiculousness of the alternative - this being a random universe.

Here you go:



Refuted!  :police:

NEXT! ;D
Git mit uns

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2013, 02:18:01 AM »

The most irrefutable argument is consideration of the alternative.  If there is no intelligence behind the nature of the universe then everything arose by chance.   DNA for instance. 

Random chance vs purposeful intelligence. 

Purposeful intelligence is seen in every element of life down to the lowest observable point.

The irrefutable argument is the ridiculousness of the alternative - this being a random universe.

The belief that everything arose by chance is so much more extreme than the craziest of religions.  It is surprising that any self respecting and even minimally educated person can pretend to hold onto that position.


The best argument is to use a strawman?

Well, a lot of people do seem to think that, considering how often it's used...
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2013, 02:32:54 AM »
Purposeful intelligence is seen in every element of life down to the lowest observable point.

The irrefutable argument is the ridiculousness of the alternative - this being a random universe.

Here you go:



Refuted!  :police:

NEXT! ;D

How does that refute his point?

Christians believe snowflakes were created by an intelligent being. They aren't random either.

It only proves "no design" if you already have a presupposition that God is not real.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2013, 02:35:34 AM »
The belief that everything arose by chance is so much more extreme than the craziest of religions.  It is surprising that any self respecting and even minimally educated person can pretend to hold onto that position.

So you prefer the convenience of a god who is infinite so he never had to evolve or anything. And he looked like us. With a penis and legs and everything. Always existing. Never having had to be formed. Having no cause. Infinite. Convenient.

You have faith in a story from long ago, and trust it more than modern science. Lacking evidence, other than others who believe the same thing (which is not evidence, by the way) And with that you think you understand everything. Enough so that you can laugh at all who disagree with you.

Staring at a crystal or a flower or a bacterium or a finger and saying "He made this all for us" takes quite an ego. He apparently also made a universe far more vast than we humans will ever need. He could have gotten by with one star and one planet, instead he made 100 billion galaxies, each with an average of perhaps 400 billiions. Scientists estimate that our galaxy alone has  as many as 40 billion earth-sized planets. And you are saying that nothing could ever have happened without your god.

When one is astonished and decides to study our universe, one becomes a scientist. When one is astonished, mouth agape, too stunned to study, too amazed to think about it, too willing to give the universe a simple minded answer, they turn to religion. With self-appointed pride.

Science doesn't know everything, but the claims that it makes, the things that it knows something about, has evidence. Religion has a story, and as you are demonstrating, it requires a built-in gullibility. Plus the ability to fend off information by the ton. Religion, as it makes claims about reality that don't match anything but the thoughts that bind it, blunders forward, burning heretics and witches, flying into buildings, blaming storms on gays, claiming righteousness and shuttering at every change in society. And simultaneously claiming they know everything that they need to know.

It is surprising that any self respecting and even minimally educated person can pretend to hold onto that position. Well, not surprising. Inevitable, apparently. Once you have an uneducated enough population. That you can scare.

What you don't understand is that it is hard to parse reality when you're busy pissing in your own jeans because you don't know yet if you're going to get into heaven. That sure must be distracting.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2013, 02:56:35 AM »
The most irrefutable argument is consideration of the alternative.  If there is no intelligence behind the nature of the universe then everything arose by chance.

False dichotomy.  Some things undoubtedly arise by chance, but comparatively few.  Once something exists, its properties and circumstances may naturally bring other things into existence (for example, hydrogen atoms fusing into helium inside a star, which essentially started out as a collection of burning hydrogen).  Its structure constrains how other things interact with it and the resulting relationship is no longer based strictly on chance.

Let's take a closer look at that hydrogen atom.  It has 1 electron, so that allows it to bond with only one other atom.  Once it has bonded to, say, an oxygen atom, it is no longer available to react with other atoms unless some force breaks the chemical bond, or it loses or gains an electron.  It is largely constrained by the rules affecting the molecule it now belongs to, and will react according to the molecule's structure.  Instead of pure hydrogen being in a liquid state at temperatures below 20.28 Kelvin, you could have:

  • Water (H2O), liquid between 273 K and 373 K;
  • Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), liquid between 272.57 K and 423.2 K;
  • Or any one of a number of more complex molecules.

In this way, matter is in a state of constant change but is neither 100% random nor 100% directed by an intelligent agent.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 03:05:53 AM by Astreja »
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2013, 03:02:30 AM »
The most irrefutable argument is consideration of the alternative.  If there is no intelligence behind the nature of the universe then everything arose by chance.

False dichotomy.  Some things undoubtedly arise by chance, but comparatively few.  Once something exists, its properties and circumstances may naturally bring other things into existence (for example, hydrogen atoms fusing into helium inside a star, which essentially started out as a collection of burning hydrogen).  Its structure constrains how other things interact with it and the resulting relationship is no longer based strictly on chance.

Let's take a closer look at that hydrogen atom.  It has 1 electron, so that allows it to bond with only one other atom.  Once it has bonded to, say, an oxygen atom, it is no longer available to react with other atoms unless some force breaks the chemical bond, or it loses or gains an electron.  It is largely constrained by the rules affecting the molecule it now belongs to, and will react according to the molecule's structure.  Instead of pure hydrogen being in a liquid state at temperatures below 20.28 Kelvin, you could have:

  • Water (H2O), liquid between 273°K and 373°K;
  • Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), liquid between 272.57°K and 423.2°K;
  • Or any one of a number of more complex molecules.

In this way, matter is in a state of constant change but is neither 100% random nor 100% directed by an intelligent agent.

I know it's only a nitpick, but you should remove the degree notation, as Kelvin isn't based on degrees.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2013, 03:05:59 AM »

No. We love education.

We just don't like evolution being taught to our children like it's the only possible truth.

If you love education, what are your qualifications to talk about any of the subjects you have mentioned?

You have not answered the question.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2013, 03:06:27 AM »
I know it's only a nitpick, but you should remove the degree notation, as Kelvin isn't based on degrees.

Fixed; and thanks for pointing that out.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2013, 03:08:10 AM »
I know it's only a nitpick, but you should remove the degree notation, as Kelvin isn't based on degrees.

Fixed; and thanks for pointing that out.
No problem, any way I can help.
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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2013, 03:08:41 AM »
How does that refute his point?

Christians believe snowflakes were created by an intelligent being. They aren't random either.

It only proves "no design" if you already have a presupposition that God is not real.

Skep, this is why I said the design argument had been refuted.  This right here.  If everything is considered "designed" then we have no criteria by which to judge whether something is designed.  Therefore the design argument self-refutes.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2013, 03:42:53 AM »

The most irrefutable argument is consideration of the alternative.  If there is no intelligence behind the nature of the universe then everything arose by chance.   DNA for instance. 

Random chance vs purposeful intelligence. 

Purposeful intelligence is seen in every element of life down to the lowest observable point.

The irrefutable argument is the ridiculousness of the alternative - this being a random universe.

The belief that everything arose by chance is so much more extreme than the craziest of religions.  It is surprising that any self respecting and even minimally educated person can pretend to hold onto that position.

Dominic, and Shep, If you think you are so educated, prove that the universe does not work at random or by chance. Take a simple example. Explain how a particle of light reflected from the surface of a pond is caused in any way to be reflected?

So that was too difficult for you? How about this. Is it chance that you are here or were your parents destined to meet?

« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 04:21:06 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians; Why Don't You Have An irrefutable Argument?
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2013, 04:44:12 AM »
There are plenty of irrefutable arguments:

moral argument
design argument
transcendental argument
first cause argument
atheists believing in things that can't be empirically proven, but denying God exists by claiming it's not empirically proven.

skeptic54768, I will happily debate you, one on one, on ANY of those topics, to allow you to demonstrate the irrefutable proof of your particular god.     Let me know which one you want to do, and I'll get a debate room set up.

Make sure you do the moral argument first. Here is the formula:

(1) Invite Christian to define what the law against killing means, and let him map out all the exceptions (re punishment, war, self defence, euthanasia, abortion) , til his heart is content
(2) Invite Christian to comment on whether he agrees, alongside God, with all the anti-killing law that he just defined  (he will say, yes, he agrees with God in all cases)
(3) Ask if it's a coincidence that he agrees with all the law he just mapped out, himself
(4) Ask him to justify all the law he just defined, (and agreed with), to check that he knows why all the law exists
(5) Point out that if he knows, logically, why all the law and exceptions exists, then he doesn't need God to invent them, and neither did any other civilization.

Repeat process for law against theft and false testament.

After that, point out that all other other "morals", involving polygamy, sex before marriage, homosexuality, sleeping with your mother, sacrificing beef, worship on Saturday, can't actually be decided logically, and that's why God changes his mind between the old testament and new, and there is not really any cross cultural agreement.

The basic process is to get the Christian to admit that he can defend all the laws of God. Only the laws that he can't defend, come from God, and those laws do not constitute any morality.

Q: Why is it not OK to rape your mother?
Christian: I don't know. God just says so, but I can't think of any reason why I shouldn't rape my mother.

Q: Why is it not OK to eat your brother?
Christian: I don't know why I shouldn't eat my brother. It seems like he would taste good. Yum yum. But God says not to, so I guess I shouldn't.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.