Author Topic: Lying for Jesus  (Read 394 times)

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Offline median

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Lying for Jesus
« on: November 06, 2013, 09:01:23 PM »
This seems to be such a common occurrence among Christians that I really wanted to discuss it - if for nothing else that you might be able to anticipate it's occurrence, spot it when it occurs, and call the Christian out on the carpet for attempting it.

Bearing False Witness for God (aka - Breaking God's command to prove God's command)

Exodus 20:16 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Proverbs 6:16–19 - There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.


The basic scenario goes something like this: You are debating a Christian on a particular subject of philosophy, theology or science and begin to notice the Christian misrepresenting your position (Strawman fallacy). Now, in and of itself this is not the sin of bearing false witness. However, as the debate moves forward you notice that the Christian deliberately continues to misrepresent your position even after you have notified them that they are doing so. In other words, after they have been instructed that your position is X, they continue to put words in your mouth (twisting the truth) by saying that your position is Y and attacking that position.

This is deliberate deceitfulness and it is completely out of step with nearly every Christian theology on earth. Yet Christians still do it as a defense mechanism to protect their faith from refutation. So when the Christian does this he/she is effectivelybreaking the rules of his/her own religion in an attempt to argue for it (aka - Bearing False Witness for God). Kind of ironic, eh?

EXAMPLE DIALOGUE:

Christian - "You are an atheist. So that means you believe there is no God"
Non-Believer - "No, atheism is a lack of belief in a God. I do not have a positive belief about the subject. I lack belief (just like I lack belief in unicorns)"
Christian - "Well, if you don't have a belief then that must mean you think there is no God!!"
Non-Believer - "No, it does not mean that. It means I do not currently hold a belief in a God (not that I could not hold that possibly in the future)"
Christian - "But that means you don't believe in a God, which means you think God doesn't exist!"
Non-Believer - "No, it does not mean that."

This occurrence is so common amongst Christian apologists online (and elsewhere) that they don't even realize they are doing it. In fact, it very often happens during science discussions (pertaining to evolution, cosmology, or what have you). The apologist will perpetually twist the words of his opponent in order to make it easier for him to argue while continuing his/her faulty position.

Has anyone else ever seen this happen? What other examples can you bring? How might you best deal with a situation like this when it arises? I often wonder if we can find pure outright lies/forgeries from Christians trying to defend their religious beliefs like this, as it seems that this tactic is so prevalent today. Isn't this just a last ditch effort to protect their emotional investment? What do you think?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 09:10:56 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nick

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Re: Lying for Jesus
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 09:08:06 PM »
When you have this mess called Christianity, with all its contradictions, the only way to keep a lid on the whole thing is to lie.
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Offline Lectus

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Re: Lying for Jesus
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 09:47:07 PM »
I'll give you some useful comparisons so you understand the psychology behind this.

Belief is the operating system of the human mind. You can hold several kinds of belief and they dictate your behavior. Your beliefs can be changed/reprogrammed by the environment, but it's harder to do it through conscious will. Which means belief is very deep unconscious process.

Beliefs act as a filter for how you see reality. If you hold a belief that people are BAD. Your mind will seek evidence to prove this belief. Not all people are bad, but you'll only see those because of the belief you hold.

Now, Christians hold a belief based on the bible, or more commonly, parts of the bible their pastors selected. Most Christians only read the good parts of the bible.

Because it's a belief they'll naturally keep seeking evidence to support their beliefs. So, everything good that happens is a miracle by Jesus!

When you try to discuss with Christians they unconsciously lie to keep supporting their belief. That's because they invested more of their lives in that alternative reality than in learning to not lie. The Christian belief has PRIORITY in their minds over the act of "not lying".

I've seen Christians fabricating/faking miracles in the church because they wanted to glorify Jesus. They've been conditioned by the church to do that, to see that as the ultimate act of believing in God. It didn't matter if the miracle was fake, because they were more uncomfortable negating the belief in Jesus than faking a miracle to keep going.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 09:50:01 PM by Lectus »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Lying for Jesus
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 11:50:32 PM »
The [insert whatever label you are against here] will perpetually twist the words of his opponent in order to make it easier for him to argue while continuing his/her faulty position.........

.......Has anyone else ever seen this happen?

Constantly.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Lying for Jesus
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2013, 05:51:11 AM »
Exodus 20:16 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

That's the crux of it ... the ten commandments only apply to the in-crowd. Yahweh was still very much just one of the heavenly posse. Which is why three of the ten are wasted on convincing peopleto ONLY worship Yahweh.
Thou shalt not kill!!! ... any of Yahweh-ist, anyone else, feel free to exterminate.
Thou shalt not lie!!! ... to other Yahweh-ists, others? lie through your teeth.[1]
And yes, to realise you're lying in defence of your god because you have nothing better in your arsenal does require a sort of cognitive dissonance that is 1984-esque at least.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Lying for Jesus
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2013, 05:56:04 AM »
Median,

I was looking for something to go on your new morality thread. I found this but it fits here too.

http://www.chforum.org/library/choice12.shtml

It is a comparison of two mindsets, for example the global mindset of the religious person (called the hedgehog) and the selective mindset of the scientist (called the fox).

The study shows how the religious mindset filters information: They resent and resist challenges. They work hard to exclude dissonance. They exhibit false memories, of what they previously said or believed. When tested against actual events the religious mindset is found to have less explanatory power. So this is the underlying reason why religious people misrepresent everything. It is not just the religion but the way they think.

When you stopped being religious did you find that the way you think changed or did you stop being religious because your thinking did not fit the religious mindset?

« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 06:09:52 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline median

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Re: Lying for Jesus
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2013, 11:15:59 AM »
Median,

I was looking for something to go on your new morality thread. I found this but it fits here too.

http://www.chforum.org/library/choice12.shtml

It is a comparison of two mindsets, for example the global mindset of the religious person (called the hedgehog) and the selective mindset of the scientist (called the fox).

The study shows how the religious mindset filters information: They resent and resist challenges. They work hard to exclude dissonance. They exhibit false memories, of what they previously said or believed. When tested against actual events the religious mindset is found to have less explanatory power. So this is the underlying reason why religious people misrepresent everything. It is not just the religion but the way they think.

When you stopped being religious did you find that the way you think changed or did you stop being religious because your thinking did not fit the religious mindset?

Ooo, this is a good question (the chicken or the egg!). In fact, now that I think about it I'm realizing this is a tough one to answer! Upon first reflection, I have to go with the latter. I had always committed myself to seeking the truth wherever it may be, but when I was a Christian I "knew" that I had found the truth and I wanted to show others (hence the debating online). The hard part is, I feel like the answer is both! Well, maybe not entirely but I do feel like the evidence itself (and sound reasoning) forced my beliefs to change. I basically just discovered that I could no longer believe Christianity and Christian theology (of any stripe) - and I tried!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Lying for Jesus
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 12:30:13 PM »

I've seen Christians fabricating/faking miracles in the church because they wanted to glorify Jesus. They've been conditioned by the church to do that, to see that as the ultimate act of believing in God. It didn't matter if the miracle was fake, because they were more uncomfortable negating the belief in Jesus than faking a miracle to keep going.

This is a really good point. And I've seen it happen many times in different degrees. It really is another perfect example of Christians lying for 'Jesus'. In some ways I feel empathetic though b/c (as you mentioned) we all have a tendency to want to 'believe' things (and especially the belief of an afterlife - from the fear of death) b/c it's scary (for many) to think of lifes end. We fear the unknown, the foreign, the darkness, the alone-ness, the 'nothingness' and it drives us to believe weird things. For many years now I have often seen life as a metaphor of this picture:




We are as fish out of water, experiencing life only for a brief glimmered moment. Let us enjoy this moment while it is here.[1]
 1. Original artwork and quote by median
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 12:38:22 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan