Author Topic: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles  (Read 1884 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2013, 08:16:39 PM »


You should define wrong.

Lets go with, "that which is done contrary to the will of a legitimate authority"
The Bible, "inspired" by God contains contradictions to plentiful to count. Do you consider anybody else,aside from God to be a legitimate authority? You can dance around the fact the Bible is less than perfect with the simple phrase "inspired by God". This lets God off the hook for being represented as a less than perfect being when looked at in modern times.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 08:21:35 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2013, 08:23:43 PM »
Can God, as revealed in the bible, be wrong?

Absolutely yes.  We know for sure that putting the blood of freshly killed lamb behind your right ear and on your right big toe doesn't cure leprosy.

Can you advise which bible pasage (I assume its a bible passage) you refer to here?

Leviticus 14:2-52, I think is where you find the blood and toe cleansing thing. (Context is important, I'm sure.)

Of course you could just get lucky and have your attack of leprosy when Jesus is visiting your town. As he walks by, get him to touch you. That also works for other illnesses, IIRC. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2013, 08:30:02 PM »
Can you advise which bible pasage (I assume its a bible passage) you refer to here?

Leviticus 14.  The Lord said unto Moses bla bla ...  right after the bit about catching two doves, killing one over a magical brew and letting the other go  ;D

Thanks. If you read it without the bla bla you'll see that this describes a ceremonial cleansing process for those who have already been healed of the defiling skin disease.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2013, 08:31:14 PM »
(Context is important, I'm sure.)


Always! You get a gold star ;D
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2013, 08:34:04 PM »
I can't commit to a full discussion of these issues right now...probably shouldn't have asked such a provocative question :P

However..I shall find time soon enough to get into it. I still have some unfinished business on another thread as well.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2013, 08:35:06 PM »
Can you advise which bible pasage (I assume its a bible passage) you refer to here?

Leviticus 14.  The Lord said unto Moses bla bla ...  right after the bit about catching two doves, killing one over a magical brew and letting the other go  ;D

Thanks. If you read it without the bla bla you'll see that this describes a ceremonial cleansing process for those who have already been healed of the defiling skin disease.

But that's the point--the "cleansing" ceremony does not do anything, either. It's magic, and has absolutely nothing to do with helping people who have leprosy. Why is that taking up precious space in the bible instead of actually telling people how to cure the freaking disease?  >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline William

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2013, 08:37:53 PM »
Thanks. If you read it without the bla bla you'll see that this describes a ceremonial cleansing process for those who have already been healed of the defiling skin disease.

Okay, so what is this "cleansing" for then?
If you don't "cleanse" what happens next?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2013, 08:40:36 PM »
Thanks. If you read it without the bla bla you'll see that this describes a ceremonial cleansing process for those who have already been healed of the defiling skin disease.

Okay, so what is this "cleansing" for then?
If you don't "cleanse" what happens next?
First off "healed" of the disease would be more important than the follow up cleansing,did God heal the lepers first or not?
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Offline William

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2013, 08:44:10 PM »
First off "healed" of the disease would be more important than the follow up cleansing,did God heal the lepers first or not?
My only thoughts are that God didn't heal the lepers but wanted them to think he had something to do with it.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2013, 08:45:36 PM »
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2013, 08:49:16 PM »
First off "healed" of the disease would be more important than the follow up cleansing,did God heal the lepers first or not?
My only thoughts are that God didn't heal the lepers but wanted them to think he had something to do with it.
Lepers have miles long journey to healing through modern medical procedures was it even healed back then or did they just die?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2013, 09:29:15 PM »
A couple of commentaries on cleansing, for those interested:

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=3&c=14

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=le&chapter=014

I read them. The commentaries try to get around the obvious fact that nobody, not even god, was able to reliably cure leprosy. The ancients did not know what caused it and did not know how to treat it. They only knew that when something had apparently worked a miracle, you should acknowledge that miracle in some way with the bird blood and the toe ritual.

This is no more or less than a magical spell of protection.[1] Maybe the bible ancients thought that the ritual would keep others from getting the disease if the cured person was "cleansed" before coming back around them. Like throwing salt over your shoulder, knocking on wood, or a witch doctor shaking a rattle over a dead person so the spirit does not get up and haunt the living. Does it work?
 1. The commentaries go to some lengths to say that the bird blood thing is not in any way a magical spell-- that is what pagans do. Christians never do magic other than sometimes talk to supernatural beings and ask them for stuff. And drink god's blood and eat his flesh. Symbolically.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jetson

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2013, 10:51:15 PM »


You should define wrong.

Lets go with, "that which is done contrary to the will of a legitimate authority"

So, obviously the legitimate authority is YHWH, and by definition, according to his followers, his will is unquestionable, unknowable, and cannot be wrong, etc., etc., yadda, yadda, yadda.  Amiright?

So, we've come full circle, to the basic premise that we can never call anything that YHWH does "wrong"?  Amiright?

See, it is the societies that determine right and wrong, through collective secular laws.  It is not the religions, or it's believers or gods.  There are certainly plenty of people among us who believe that their god/religion is the ultimate authority on what is right and what is wrong, but the collective society would easily label a large chunk of scripture from the major religions to be wrong. 

When it comes to stoning children to death, slaughtering entire cities of every citizen, commanding the deaths of children by bears, flooding the entire planet with intent to kill all but a few select humans, asking a parent to kill their own child, we can all sit back with all the confidence in the world and proclaim that all of those things are wrong.  No god required.

There really is no excuse for any of it, no matter how you slice it.

Offline William

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2013, 02:56:22 AM »
A couple of commentaries on cleansing, for those interested:

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=3&c=14

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=le&chapter=014

Haha, it becomes even more laughable after reading the excusiology  ;D

The facts are that God told Moses to do this complicated shit involving various kinds of blood put in strange places.

And Jesus, instead of replacing the nongy ideas, came up with his own new version repeating the same magic cleansing-by-blood nonsense:
Quote
Matthew 26: 27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

These are all the ideas of very primitive minds - all they new is that blood loss caused death and so assumed it had magical properties.
Nowdays we know exactly what blood is, what different types there are, how every component of it works, what happens when it is shed, and that it  often carries infectious viruses. It's definitely not something to be worshiped as a ritualistic tool or symbol of cleansing from diseases and "sins".

Modern science has put magical blood shedding myths in their proper place - superstitions of ignorant people.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2013, 08:27:18 AM »
Wow did we drift off topic:)

The main idea here is that you would need to be a complete moron to absolutely believe in god, and generally want to please him as your goal and then at the same time wittness miracles of vast power turn around and make the stupid mistakes of biblical characters.

The devil could not and would not have ever challenged god unless he was mentally unstable/defective.

Adam and Eve were nieve I can see them blowing it due to lack of frame of reference.  God had never been mad at them before, god did not explain right and wrong,  and they had no experience with lying.  Adam and Eve I can buy blowing it.  But with the aforementioned I believe that a time out would have been a much more fitting punishment rather than ejecting them from pardise and punishing them and their children for subsequent generations.

Moses's flock would not have begun creating graven images so soon after God's plagues and subsequent, Red Sea miracle that was an obvious gift to them.

As said before some sins are difficult to avoid (thought crimes are really uncontrollable) but physical actions are pretty easily avoided.

Rape
Carving and worshiping false idols as gods
Challenging god to prove his power after you have wittnessed it first hand
Adultery...

These things are pretty easily avoided in the presence of others.  I assume that if you "know" god is there and he exists and is all powerful and sees all the short list above would easily be avoided.



Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2013, 10:10:39 AM »
Epidemic,what about the other rules set out by God that Christians ignore? Rules that include not cutting your hair or shaving or getting tattooed,wearing mixed fabric(nylon) and the myriad of others? These rules are easy to follow as well,but are ignored by Christians,why do you think they ignore rules and think God is ok?
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Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2013, 10:24:21 AM »
Epidemic,what about the other rules set out by God that Christians ignore? Rules that include not cutting your hair or shaving or getting tattooed,wearing mixed fabric(nylon) and the myriad of others? These rules are easy to follow as well,but are ignored by Christians,why do you think they ignore rules and think God is ok?


really any physical act is what I am talking about.  But specifically regarding pissing off the god who just revealed himself to you with a grand miracle. 

I am not talking about some Christmas and Easter Catholic here.   I am talking about the guy who wittnessed jesus raise the dead, or Noah's family or moses's followers.   These people theoretically knew for absolute certain that gods power was real.

I contend that the Devil would never have challenged god because in simple terms God Pwns the devil and the devil knows this.   It is like me deciding one day I will freethrow a baseball into the sun.  Planning on hours of practice to accomplish the feat.  I know it is a pointless endeavor.   The devils challenge is infinitely more difficult.

Offline neopagan

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2013, 10:34:15 AM »
Epidemic,what about the other rules set out by God that Christians ignore? Rules that include not cutting your hair or shaving or getting tattooed,wearing mixed fabric(nylon) and the myriad of others? These rules are easy to follow as well,but are ignored by Christians,why do you think they ignore rules and think God is ok?

Sabbath breaking! 
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Jag

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2013, 10:55:32 AM »
Epidemic,what about the other rules set out by God that Christians ignore? Rules that include not cutting your hair or shaving or getting tattooed,wearing mixed fabric(nylon) and the myriad of others? These rules are easy to follow as well,but are ignored by Christians,why do you think they ignore rules and think God is ok?

Sabbath breaking!
Which day is that again? Saturday for Jews? Sunday for Christians? Friday for Muslims? And all grew from the same OT?

If there were any sense to it at all, Sabbath would be on Thursday, cause nogods is right - Thor is a hottie.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline neopagan

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2013, 10:59:38 AM »
Which day is that again? Saturday for Jews? Sunday for Christians? Friday for Muslims? And all grew from the same OT?

If there were any sense to it at all, Sabbath would be on Thursday, cause nogods is right - Thor is a hottie.

Ummm... you're taking it out of context.   :o
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2013, 06:32:55 PM »
Which day is that again? Saturday for Jews? Sunday for Christians? Friday for Muslims? And all grew from the same OT?

If there were any sense to it at all, Sabbath would be on Thursday, cause nogods is right - Thor is a hottie.

Ummm... you're taking it out of context.   :o

That Thor is a hottie? Let us begin indeed.....


Now, what are we supposed to hold onto again?  :?

I could explain why Thor would not have needed to command most people to kneel before him, but I would end up with that error message.....



Even Loki gets pwned on that.


AND IT'S THORSDAY! :-*
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 06:35:23 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline One Above All

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2013, 06:36:26 PM »
I am sticking with the judeo christian when I use the singular God.  The bible I probably frame off of King james and derrivatives.

You do know there is more than one god referenced in the Bible, yes? Some even seem to be gods YHWH answers to.

Lucifer and Satan seem to be the same thing only Lucifer was the angel who was cast out and Satan the adversary after being kicked out.
<snip>
I see little difference between satan and lucifer besides his residence and possibly his physical body.   

@This and above:
Again, spoken like a true christian.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Jag

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2013, 09:54:49 AM »

AND IT'S THORSDAY! :-*

Forgive the blasphemy please. Thorsday it is.  ;)
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Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2013, 02:02:15 PM »
You do know there is more than one god referenced in the Bible, yes? Some even seem to be gods YHWH answers to.



I don't know what you refer to when you say other gods being in the bible.  It was always my impression (uninformed as it may be) that any gods cited in the bible were cited as false gods.  Can you show me where they were supported by the bible?

I am looking but your help would be appreciated.

Quote
Genesis 1:26
And God said, let us make man in our image.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

Genesis 11:7
Let us go down, and there confound their language.

I don't see the "us" as refering to a second being. I think that is an artifact of language.

Quote
Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.
  Interesting, if god was dispelling a myth I would think he would have referred to this in another fashion.

Quote
Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

Exodus 20:3, 5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Exodus 22:20-28
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. (v.20)
Thou shalt not revile the gods. (v.28)


Exodus 23:13-32
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. (v.13)
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. (v.24)

Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. (v.32)


Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Again I believe this is an artifact of speech,  when I speak of the god i do not believe in I still call him god.  If I were god and wanted people to no longer pray to their imaginary gods I might well speak of them as "your gods, or other gods"

Quote
Numbers 33:4
Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.
  I don't know how you execute judgements against non existent gods?

Quote
Deuteronomy 3:24
What God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works?
If the answer is none it might well be because there are no other gods.

Quote
Deuteronomy 5:7
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
  Again if there were no otehr gods people still may have invented them, god could very well have been saying to pray to false gods that don't exist, I am the only god.

Quote
Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)
  I am not sure that this is referring to god as a proper noun.  Again I see little difference between this and using other gods as a figure of speech.

Quote
Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.
Again figure of speech referring to made up gods not literally other gods.

Quote
Deuteronomy 28:14
Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them.
  "you should not pray to invisible imaginary gods.   adam and eves god is the only god?

Quote
Joshua 24:2-14
They served other gods. (v.2)
Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served. (v.14)
  I still feel this is a reference to false made up gods.


Quote
Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

1 Samuel 6:5
Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods.

1 Samuel 28:13
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

1 Chronicles 16:25
The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

Psalm 82:1-6
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods. (v.1)
I have said, Ye are gods. (v.6)


Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.

Psalm 96:4
For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

Psalm 97:7
Worship him, all ye gods.

Psalm 135:5
Our Lord is above all gods.

Psalm 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods.

Jeremiah 1:16
I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods.

Jeremiah 10:11
The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Jeremiah 25:6
And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

Jeremiah 46:25
I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods.

Zephaniah 2:11
The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth.

John 10:33-34
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


With a few exceptions I think mention of other gods refers to made up gods or men simply stating that if you had a god my god is better. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 02:20:24 PM by epidemic »

Offline One Above All

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2013, 02:04:35 PM »
I don't know what you refer to when you say other gods being in the bible.  It was always my impression (uninformed as it may be) that any gods cited in the bible were cited as false gods.  Can you show me where they were supported by the bible?

I am looking but your help would be appreciated.

Good news:
You don't have to read past A&E. Right there YHWH says that A&E must not be allowed to eat of the tree of life, or they would become immortal "like [them]". Then YHWH is the one who has to get his hands dirty and kick A&E out. Sounds to me like the other gods thought dealing with A&E was beneath them, but it wasn't beneath YHWH.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2013, 02:21:34 PM »
I don't know what you refer to when you say other gods being in the bible.  It was always my impression (uninformed as it may be) that any gods cited in the bible were cited as false gods.  Can you show me where they were supported by the bible?

I am looking but your help would be appreciated.

Good news:
You don't have to read past A&E. Right there YHWH says that A&E must not be allowed to eat of the tree of life, or they would become immortal "like [them]". Then YHWH is the one who has to get his hands dirty and kick A&E out. Sounds to me like the other gods thought dealing with A&E was beneath them, but it wasn't beneath YHWH.

is this a reference to the trilogy or god speaking in the third person?

Offline One Above All

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2013, 02:22:39 PM »
is this a reference to the trilogy or god speaking in the third person?

It's a reference to the other gods. YHWH refers to them and itself as "us".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2013, 02:39:49 PM »
is this a reference to the trilogy or god speaking in the third person?

It's a reference to the other gods. YHWH refers to them and itself as "us".

I see the us statement but I do not see the "Them" statement.   all the thems in that area of genesis seem to refer to Adam and Eve.

genesis seems to refer to us alot regarding God in third person or gods.  But of course god was hanging with the angels as well so he may well have been talking about us as god and the angels.

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2013, 02:42:27 PM »
I see the us statement but I do not see the "Them" statement.   all the thems in that area of genesis seem to refer to Adam and Eve.

It's a quoting thing. When you're quoting a piece of something someone said, but it doesn't fit with the grammar in your current sentence, you replace words (verbs and such) with equivalent words that won't screw up your grammar, between these: "["

genesis seems to refer to us alot regarding God in third person or gods.  But of course god was hanging with the angels as well so he may well have been talking about us as god and the angels.

Does YHWH ever address the angels?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.