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Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2013, 03:07:26 PM »
Does YHWH ever address the angels?

Perhaps,   he says us alot.   who is he saying it to?   I contend it could be the angels.

The bible writers seem to be pretty clear that they do not want to give the impressing that other gods exist.   They expressly state that they do not.  So I am going with the concept of artifacts of speech, speaking with angels the only other stated beings in existence at the time and speaking in the third person perhaps related to the trilogy.

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2013, 03:11:52 PM »
Perhaps,   he says us alot.   who is he saying it to?   I contend it could be the angels.

I contend it is the other gods; its superiors.

The bible writers seem to be pretty clear that they do not want to give the impressing that other gods exist.   They expressly state that they do not.  So I am going with the concept of artifacts of speech, speaking with angels the only other stated beings in existence at the time and speaking in the third person perhaps related to the trilogy.

Actually they say not to worship other gods. IIRC the writers don't say there aren't other gods.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2013, 03:43:35 PM »
Does YHWH ever address the angels?

He probably says things like "Hey, you angels, get over here!" Stuff like that  ;D
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2013, 07:52:44 AM »
The bible definitely supports there being other gods. You have to completely ignore or change the meanings of words to get around that fact. Furthermore, as per your questions in the OP, epidemic, that I +1'd you for... the people referenced believed there were other gods which is telling enough, one way or the other. You see, as you stated, they have supposedly seen yahweh do all these great magical things for them, and yet they still [according to the bible] went back and worshiped other gods. This tells you one of two or three things.

A) they did not really witness yahweh doing anything for them; same as the non-existent gods, yet they felt they were real
B) they witnessed yahweh AND the other gods doing things for them and THEY were real to them
C) somehow the non-existent gods were equally as real to them as yahweh, the existent god, though yahweh had done things

Personally, I find it extremely telling that they held these "other gods" on equal or higher footing than yahweh if yahweh had actually done anything for them. Imagine for a moment your parents. They raised you. Would you then go give credit to some non-existent parents for raising you? Seems odd, no?

I think the behavior of "gods people" show that their god(s) were non-existent.

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2013, 04:13:47 PM »
^^^^And not just once, but over and over again. Repeatedly, even.

Back to A and E in the garden, running off behind serpent/Satan/whoever. They had actual contact with the real deal god, and still were not so impressed. They immediately forgot/disregarded/discounted what god told them in favor of the very next smooth-talker who slithered in.

I heard Jean-Bertrand Aristides speak back in the 1990's. He was Haiti's first democratically-elected president, a Catholic priest and human rights activist. I still remember stuff he said.

I have met Garrison Keillor, Nipsey Russell, Dick Gregory, Sherman Alexie, Mark Lenard, Bill Gates, Jesse Jackson and more local celebrities, politicians and activists than I can count. None of these people created the universe, but every one of them made more of an impression on me than the lord true god apparently did on the people of the bible. &) 

I don't know about you, but if the actual god told me something that included the phrase "and then you will truly die"  I don't think I would forget or disregard it anytime soon.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2013, 08:10:12 AM »
^^^^And not just once, but over and over again. Repeatedly, even.

Back to A and E in the garden, running off behind serpent/Satan/whoever. They had actual contact with the real deal god, and still were not so impressed. They immediately forgot/disregarded/discounted what god told them in favor of the very next smooth-talker who slithered in.

I heard Jean-Bertrand Aristides speak back in the 1990's. He was Haiti's first democratically-elected president, a Catholic priest and human rights activist. I still remember stuff he said.

I have met Garrison Keillor, Nipsey Russell, Dick Gregory, Sherman Alexie, Mark Lenard, Bill Gates, Jesse Jackson and more local celebrities, politicians and activists than I can count. None of these people created the universe, but every one of them made more of an impression on me than the lord true god apparently did on the people of the bible. &) 

I don't know about you, but if the actual god told me something that included the phrase "and then you will truly die"  I don't think I would forget or disregard it anytime soon.

This is the inconvenient truth they will surely continue to ignore....

Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2013, 10:30:45 AM »
Actually they say not to worship other gods. IIRC the writers don't say there aren't other gods.

I don't find this to be compelling at all.  Not one shred of reason behind this statement.  When I speak to a bible thumper often my speech includes references to god that could be misrepresented as my belief. 

"Pray to god and then pray to a jug of milk"   I don't always say "Pray to a ficticious god and then pray to  a jug of milk" 

"why doesn't God heal amputees"   I am not saying that god exists in any way shape or form yet one could conclude I did.

"Why did your god create humans knowing they would piss him off"  Again my intent is not to say your god is valid, it is just a way of speaking.  The body of my writing on this site is skeptical of god at best.  If I mention your god a couple of times lending credibility it does not mean I believe in your god.

When talking to a bunch of people who have a history of praying to golden cow statues I very likely would say- "hey I don't want you praying to other gods"  depending on how I wanted to present the information I might include statements to follow

"Hey I don't want you praying to other gods, because there are no other gods"  It is up to the speaker what he says and how he presents it.

If he said

"I don't want you to pray to false gods" that leaves open the chance that they might think there are other real gods.

I don't seen the body of work of the old testament leaning toward multiple gods.  Otherwise the writer would not have said expressly that there are no other gods and then a paragraph later mean that there were.  This of course leads to the most likely conclusion that we are talking about artifacts of speech and tayloring speeches to the audience..
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 10:35:22 AM by epidemic »

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2013, 11:11:04 AM »
Actually they say not to worship other gods. IIRC the writers don't say there aren't other gods.

I don't find this to be compelling at all.
<snip>

Gee, if only I had said something more compelling that you didn't refute... oh, wait.

is this a reference to the trilogy or god speaking in the third person?

It's a reference to the other gods. YHWH refers to them and itself as "us".

Selectively replying to the weakest bits of an argument, ignoring the main stuff. If you're not a theist (which I don't buy), you're damn close.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2013, 11:17:59 AM »
Actually they say not to worship other gods. IIRC the writers don't say there aren't other gods.

I don't find this to be compelling at all.
<snip>

Gee, if only I had said something more compelling that you didn't refute... oh, wait.

is this a reference to the trilogy or god speaking in the third person?

It's a reference to the other gods. YHWH refers to them and itself as "us".

Selectively replying to the weakest bits of an argument, ignoring the main stuff. If you're not a theist (which I don't buy), you're damn close.

I am not sure i see what salient point you made that I glossed over.  I though I completely addressed your post.  Please clarify.

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2013, 11:30:35 AM »
I am not sure i see what salient point you made that I glossed over.  I though I completely addressed your post.  Please clarify.

YHWH refers to a group of gods (called the "Elohim" or something, if I'm not mistaken) after A&E eat the apple. So, either YHWH really likes talking to itself, which is believable[1], or it's talking to the angels. Given that you proposed it's referring to the angels, which YHWH never addresses in the Bible, as far as I know, but failed to provide evidence, Occam's razor says my explanation is the best.
 1. Not.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 11:50:45 AM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Online jdawg70

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2013, 11:42:31 AM »
"Pray to god and then pray to a jug of milk"   I don't always say "Pray to a ficticious god and then pray to  a jug of milk" 
Of course you don't.  The purpose of that line of argumentation is to showcase the similarities between the deity-function of god and the deity-function of a jug of milk (that is, the lack of any deity-function).  To say 'pray to a fictitious god' is to negate the purpose of the argument.  It's an argument from analogy.  To load one half of the analogy with the presupposition of the conclusion (e.g. god is fictitious) would be invalid.

Quote
"why doesn't God heal amputees"   I am not saying that god exists in any way shape or form yet one could conclude I did.
Again, though, the point of the argument is to start with the hypothesis 'god exists', and the point out the observations that do not support that hypothesis.  Asking "why doesn't god heal amputees" necessitates that the person you're arguing against first assume that god does indeed exist, discover that observations of reality do not coincide with that assumption, and (hopefully) discard the assumption as false.

When the concept of the luminiferous aether was proposed, of course they needed to devise experiments presupposing that it actually existed.  Then, those experiments were run, the expected results did not coincide with the existence of the luminiferous aether, and the proposition was dropped.

If your target has any inkling of your position in regards to god-belief (which I assume would be the case, unless you walk up to random strangers on a train and just ask them this question), then when you ask the question "why doesn't god heal amputees", it is with the implicit expectation that what is really being asked is "If god exists, then why doesn't god heal amputees".  Anyone you're arguing with that doesn't see that clearly and makes the assumption that you're presupposing god's existence is either intellectually dishonest, incompetent at discussion, an idiot, or a presuppositionalist[1].

Even if they, for some strange reason, think you do believe that god exists, it doesn't change the answers to the question.  And it's the answers to the question that eventually lead to the conclusion that the assumption that 'god exists' is incorrect.  That's the point of the question after all.

Quote
"Why did your god create humans knowing they would piss him off"  Again my intent is not to say your god is valid, it is just a way of speaking.  The body of my writing on this site is skeptical of god at best.  If I mention your god a couple of times lending credibility it does not mean I believe in your god.

When talking to a bunch of people who have a history of praying to golden cow statues I very likely would say- "hey I don't want you praying to other gods"  depending on how I wanted to present the information I might include statements to follow
In this case you are making a direct statement and not asking a question.  You are explicitly stating the existence of other gods.  There is no implicit 'if' in the statement.  "I don't want you praying to other gods" most certainly implies a definitive statement that there are other gods to be prayed to.  A better way to present your information is what you followed up with:

Quote
"Hey I don't want you praying to other gods, because there are no other gods"

Quote
It is up to the speaker what he says and how he presents it.
And if the speaker wanted to be clear, then he would absolutely follow up with the "because there are no other gods."

Quote
If he said

"I don't want you to pray to false gods" that leaves open the chance that they might think there are other real gods.
Agreed.  It would be better to say "I don't want you to pray to other gods.  All other entities that you believe to be gods are false gods.  There are no other gods but me."

Quote
I don't seen the body of work of the old testament leaning toward multiple gods.  Otherwise the writer would not have said expressly that there are no other gods and then a paragraph later mean that there were.  This of course leads to the most likely conclusion that we are talking about artifacts of speech and tayloring speeches to the audience..
The only issue is that the phrase is usually stated as "There are no other gods before me," which is somewhat less clear than merely stating "There are no other gods except me."  Though that may not be the line you're referring to, so my criticism here may be moot.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2013, 02:13:29 PM »
If the Red Sea were parted before your eyes and you believed it was god who saved you and did it, would you immediatly create graven images to other gods in defiance of god?

If you saw the world wiped out by an impossible rain storm that was fortold by your father, and you were spared because you were good people and realatively with out sin would you immediatly try to rape your father in his sleep in defiance of god?

If you were the Devil and you watched god create angels, heaven, the universe and man, would you challenge him to a dual to the death, knowing full well that you could not match any of gods feats??

If you were God and the devil challenged you would you feel compelled to oblige him by torturing and killing Job's family?  Or would you tell the little snot (lucifer) to shut the "F" up?





I know it is difficult to control certain supposed sins,  it is hard not to lust in some form but you could at least feel guilty,  but I think it is another story to rape your dad against his will, carve statues, murder.  Physical actions are not that hard to avoid.  Thoughts are virtually uncontrolable, but actions like these assholes did were totally functions of reason and self control

And if witnessing these events were followed by acts of defiance in the Bible, why do theists still use the argument that God has to be hidden for free will to exist?

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2013, 03:26:03 PM »
And if witnessing these events were followed by acts of defiance in the Bible, why do theists still use the argument that God has to be hidden for free will to exist?
  Great point.

Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2013, 03:37:49 PM »
The only issue is that the phrase is usually stated as "There are no other gods before me," which is somewhat less clear than merely stating "There are no other gods except me."  Though that may not be the line you're referring to, so my criticism here may be moot.

Interesting, I do remember that quote.  But i still give the bible poetic license to phrase things different.  There just are so many quotes that clearly state there is one god.   I just don't think there is a solid case to be made for the writers indicating there are other gods.

Quote
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
"Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
"For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
"Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
"You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
"O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
"You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
"For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
"You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
"'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
"Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
"I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
"And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one [hen] flesh"? " Matthew 19:5
"But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8
"Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10
""The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; " Mark 12:29
"you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?" John 5:44
"I and the Father are one [hen]." John 10:30
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God" John 17:3
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one [hen]" John 17:22
"since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30
"to the only [monos] wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27
"there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4
"yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6
"Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20
"There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God" 1 Timothy 1:17
"which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16
"For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
"You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19
"For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4
"the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 25

Offline screwtape

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2013, 03:56:06 PM »
Actually they say not to worship other gods. IIRC the writers don't say there aren't other gods.

I don't find this to be compelling at all.  Not one shred of reason behind this statement. 

Well, despite you not being convinced, this is pretty standard bible 101 even amongst professionals.  It bears out in archaeology too.  The hebrews - both israelites and judeans - were polytheists who worshipped specific gods who were members of a whole pantheon of gods.  Their two gods, as well as Baal, were later combined into one god.

There are a ton of scholarly books on the subject.  if you want something in layman's terms that is well referenced, I suggest The Evolution of God, by Robert Wright.  here's a link to a free pdf:
http://ebookbrowsee.net/ev/evolution-of-god-robert-wright-pdf#.UrNaKieFeE8

there.  now you have no reason to not educate yourself on this idea.



Interesting, I do remember that quote.  But i still give the bible poetic license to phrase things different.  There just are so many quotes that clearly state there is one god.   I just don't think there is a solid case to be made for the writers indicating there are other gods.

It is as solid as can be.  Those quotes about no other gods existing came after the Babylonian exile, written long after other parts of the Pentateuch.  It was a face saving move.  The Babylonians completely crushed the hebrews and burned down the temple of their god - literally, yhwh's house.  It should have been obvious that Marduk was superior to yhwh. But the hebrews could not face up to it.  So they said Marduk was just yhwh's puppet, punishing them for infidelity.  It was the escalation of that theme that lead to Marduk (and Baal and all other gods) not even existing.


YHWH refers to a group of gods (called the "Elohim" or something, if I'm not mistaken) after A&E eat the apple.

Close.  yhwh and el or elohim are distinct gods.  elohim is plural for el, literally meaning "the lords".  yhwh was the god worshipped in judah.   el was worshipped in the north, israel.  When israel was destroyed, the two cultures combined and so did their gods. 

elohim was also the name of the pantheon of gods worshipped in the greater Canaan region.  This was probably what was referred to in genesis.  Most of the gods in that pantheon are mentioned in the bible - el, yhwh, asherah (yhwh's wife), baal, yam and a bunch of others.  They were one big happy family until Josiah consolidated power and gods.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2013, 04:36:32 PM »
Can God, as revealed in the bible, be wrong?
A monotheistic deity is assumed to be the fount of all morals. He is supposed to guide, not be guided or influenced. His law is suggested as absolute. He is inerrant.

And yet we have a deity that approves slavery, stoning as a method of execution, and claims that there are witches.

It seems to me that either we should go back to slavery, stoning as a method of execution, and convicting people of witchcraft, or God was wrong.

I therefore think that God can be wrong, as He is influenced too easily by the morals of man, His imperfect creation...
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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2013, 07:43:17 PM »
Being in god's presence is supposed to be so overwhelming that in heaven we would not miss our earthly lives or friends or sex or food or anything. We would be ecstatically happy to sing god's praises for the rest of eternity, like just being near god is having heroin, LSD and cocaine in our brains all at the same time forever and ever. :o

Yet, the angels rebelled. Being in god's presence was apparently not all that.[1]

People in the bible saw god/Jesus, witnessed his miracles and talked to him in person, and the vast majority went on with their lives as before. Even doing the exact stuff god had told them not to do, like worshipping idols and eating forbidden fruit. Most of the people on the planet never even knew the real god was around and were busy being in awe of and/or disobeying their own false gods. 

Why do people keep telling us that if god appeared before us, we would immediately fall on our knees in awe and do everything he said? I mean, hell, the last group of people who met him crucified him! What gives? :?
 1. People say, well, they were arrogant and jealous and wanted to be like god, etc. Where would there be any room for those resentful feelings what with all the ecstasy (heh) coursing through their minds? It's like a group of drunks, stoners and crackheads organizing a revolution, staging a coup and overthrowing the North Korean government. Not going to happen.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

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Re: If you wittnessed gods biblical miracles
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2014, 09:22:18 AM »
Being in god's presence is supposed to be so overwhelming that in heaven we would not miss our earthly lives or friends or sex or food or anything. We would be ecstatically happy to sing god's praises for the rest of eternity, like just being near god is having heroin, LSD and cocaine in our brains all at the same time forever and ever. :o

Yet, the angels rebelled. Being in god's presence was apparently not all that.[1]

People in the bible saw god/Jesus, witnessed his miracles and talked to him in person, and the vast majority went on with their lives as before. Even doing the exact stuff god had told them not to do, like worshipping idols and eating forbidden fruit. Most of the people on the planet never even knew the real god was around and were busy being in awe of and/or disobeying their own false gods. 

Why do people keep telling us that if god appeared before us, we would immediately fall on our knees in awe and do everything he said? I mean, hell, the last group of people who met him crucified him! What gives? :?
 1. People say, well, they were arrogant and jealous and wanted to be like god, etc. Where would there be any room for those resentful feelings what with all the ecstasy (heh) coursing through their minds? It's like a group of drunks, stoners and crackheads organizing a revolution, staging a coup and overthrowing the North Korean government. Not going to happen.


wow I never thought of that.  So heaven is not universally satisfying.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 09:31:16 AM by epidemic »