Answer: Why won't God heal amputees? [#2772]

[Jag]

A person on their own cannot supernaturally heal another person. When I say it's our responsibility as Christians, I'm talking about how we need to enforce the victory that Jesus has already won 2000 years ago. God already did his bit, and he gave us the power to continue to do Jesus' works here on earth, by faith. God can never become superfluous because without his victory and the name of Jesus, no amount of praying can heal.

That's an ... unusual choice of words.

Bold mine, of course. I missed it the first time through.

[Ataraxia]

Ataraxia

This is the thing with this religion, it makes you think that you and the rest of humanity are shit, and that you are useless and amount to nothing

I don't think this could be further from the truth according to "real" Christianity. The bible says we have been made in the image of God(Genesis 1:27). He says he loves us so much that he sacrificed his Son to redeem us from our mistakes(John 3:16). He wants to adopt us as his sons(Galatians 4:5), and give his sons the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18)

I don't see how that should make anyone feel useless. Even if a person chooses not to accept God, it doesn't change how God made them and what he has done for them.

Maybe I'm missing the point somehow....

Yes, you are. You say it couldn't be further from the truth according to "real" Christianity (that being your individual version, of course ), and then follow it up with what I've highlighted in bold. We seem to be working with polar opposite definitions of "love". We make mistakes, yes, according to our own moral framework, and it's for us to make amends, not to relinquish all responsibility and heap it all on an entity willing to carry our burden in order for us to be forgiven. It's convoluted nonsense.

Anyway, getting to the actual Jesus appearance and the reason for it - this is exactly seeing humanity as worthless. Why come down to "save" us from our nature, a nature that he plagued us with in the first place? Why not send Jesus to heap a bit of praise on us, to give us some encouragement, to tell us that on the whole, we're actually doing a good job of our lives and living civilly and cohesively? No, this God of yours appears to be more interested in putting us down so he can continue on his ego trip of being "the only way out" by displaying some fancy parlour tricks.

You can quote the Bible and you can add your little references, but I really don't give a toss what it says. It's what people believe and how they act on those beliefs that I am bothered about. You believe what it says, yet I've never seen anyone give any justification as to why any of it should be taken anymore seriously than Winnie The Pooh (which, incidentally, IMO provides better tales for moral guidance than most Bible stories).
I do appreciate that you're not here to proselytise or evangelise and are happy enough for us not to believe. Great. Super. Thing is, this website and others like it exist to highlight that people care about the world in which we share, and that their internal model matches as closely as possible to the world in which is perceived. While I am happy enough for you to believe whatever you like, I also care that you are basing your life around something that can't be substantiated, and that you are wasting your time doing so. The world is a more magnificent place than the shrunken shithole the Bible portrays it to be. We work better as a whole if we all try to take reality on reality's terms, and any system that makes you not is a hindrance and counter productive to that aim. The shackles of nonsense incarcerate us from making sense of the world, and I would only like to see you remove them so we can all benefit.

[Nam]

This person lost me at "real Christians". Now I know they are just like every other Fundy that comes here.

-Nam

[Nam]

A person on their own cannot supernaturally heal another person. When I say it's our responsibility as Christians, I'm talking about how we need to enforce the victory that Jesus has already won 2000 years ago. God already did his bit, and he gave us the power to continue to do Jesus' works here on earth, by faith. God can never become superfluous because without his victory and the name of Jesus, no amount of praying can heal.

That's an ... unusual choice of words.

Bold mine, of course. I missed it the first time through.

Probably why they ignored my last comment to them: s/he is one of those Christians who feel the need to "anforce" their religion on others. You know? to save them.

-Nam

[naemhni]

But if there's no God etc, why not just leave everyone to their delusions

[One Above All]

But if there's no God etc, why not just leave everyone to their delusions

Conversely:

[jdawg70]

One thing that I would like to clarify to you, and a number of people who have raised the issue in a roundabout way. When I talk about praying for people, I'm not talking about praying to God, really I'm just telling their bodies to be healed in the name of Jesus. Sorry if I haven't been clear about that.

Sometimes I use language that I guess could be interpreted either way. I'm not sure if you realise this, but most Christians hate what I say as much as they hate what you say! People don't like being told they have a responsibility.

I suspect that they don't hate what you say because it implies they have a responsibility.

I suspect they hate what you say because it implies that one (e.g. you) can cast magic spells via incantation to heal the sick.

[jaimehlers]

One thing that I would like to clarify to you, and a number of people who have raised the issue in a roundabout way. When I talk about praying for people, I'm not talking about praying to God, really I'm just telling their bodies to be healed in the name of Jesus. Sorry if I haven't been clear about that.

Fair enough.  So how do you know what's causing the healing?  It could be as you say and simply invoking the name of Jesus is enough, though that's not likely due to other factors.  But it could be any number of other things.  Have you investigated to find out why it works, what might be causing it?

[jtk73]

The bible says we have been made in the image of God(Genesis 1:27).

...our mistakes(John 3:16).

Does not compute. If we are created in his image, how (or better yet, why) are we capable of making mistakes? 

He says he loves us so much that he sacrificed his Son to redeem us from our mistakes(John 3:16

What are these mistakes? Against who or what are/were they made? If they are against God himself, and he loves us "so much", why not just forgive them? Why is redemption required? 

He wants to adopt us as his sons(Galatians 4:5)

And we know how he treats sons....

...bad translations.

Seems like a pretty important message. Why would a god that has an important message that is vital to it's creation, allow bad translations to even exist?

The only way God could win back that dominion for us was to come as a man(because they were given dominion) and live perfectly and then make one perfect sacrifice to pay for all the sin of the world.

That is the only way? Why could God not 'blink' the devil out of existence, 'blink' sin out of existence and then retrofit all living humans to be unable to sin? As Ataraxia observed several posts up, it's very convoluted.

I know I'm posting from a biblical point of view. I'm not assuming you believe the bible, or me, but just showing you were I'm coming from, and what I believe the bible teaches.

Then why don't you reject God? The God that you have described is massively incompetent. Why would you give such a character any credence or respect?

[William]

The most recent major healing was a couple of months ago, when a man (unbeliever and friend of ours) ...

Okay good that means I qualify  
Can you please have a go at fixing my right patella. That's my knee-cap.  It's worn out at the back where it rubs on the ends of the knee bones.  Constantly inflamed and painful.  Doc said when I'm a bit older I'll get a knee-replacement, meanwhile there's nothing that can be done except keep using it and manage the pain.
If that can be healed I'll sign up immediately - no more questions asked.

[ThatZenoGuy]

The most recent major healing was a couple of months ago, when a man (unbeliever and friend of ours) ...

Okay good that means I qualify  
Can you please have a go at fixing my right patella. That's my knee-cap.  It's worn out at the back where it rubs on the ends of the knee bones.  Constantly inflamed and painful.  Doc said when I'm a bit older I'll get a knee-replacement, meanwhile there's nothing that can be done except keep using it and manage the pain.
If that can be healed I'll sign up immediately - no more questions asked.

I second this, i have a botched eye that could do with some magic healing.

[Antidote]

The most recent major healing was a couple of months ago, when a man (unbeliever and friend of ours) ...

Okay good that means I qualify  
Can you please have a go at fixing my right patella. That's my knee-cap.  It's worn out at the back where it rubs on the ends of the knee bones.  Constantly inflamed and painful.  Doc said when I'm a bit older I'll get a knee-replacement, meanwhile there's nothing that can be done except keep using it and manage the pain.
If that can be healed I'll sign up immediately - no more questions asked.

What about me? I'm flat footed, so I have chronic ankle, knee, hip, and back pain, I also have a birth defect in my lower spine; A small hole known a spina bifida occulta.

[Ivellios]

It is possible that most of us either has medical problems, or has someone we care about that does. If all of us were healed and heard, "I, Yahweh, am the one that healed you," it would help his case. However, Hindus, Muslims, and basically all believe that they get thier healing(s) from thier own gods. So, there needs to be some way to not mistake the one doing the healing.

[Anfauglir]

Just a bookmark, primarily to see whether Word will agree to heal any of those who have asked.

[jaimehlers]

Honestly?  The whole Jesus story sounds very much like the other stuff that's common all through ancient history.  For example, rulers, would-be rulers, and even people who just wanted to be important (such as merchants who were rich and wanted fame) would create fake pedigrees for themselves, to retcon their ancestry to match whatever they were trying to aim for.  "The descendant of Alexander the Great" was popular, I imagine, as was "the descendant of Julius Caesar".  And how many people claimed to be the child of some god or another, in order to add even more luster to their image?

It's very similar to the political whitewashing that goes on today, except that's more subtle and sophisticated.

Point being, a would-be religious leader trying to make a name for himself might very well claim to be the Son of God.

[Mrjason]

<snip>"The descendant of Alexander the Great" was popular, I imagine, as was "the descendant of Julius Caesar".  ...

These rulers, or their followers, also claimed divine linage to bolster their appeal.

On this coin minted shortly after alexanders death you can see him sporting the rather fetching horns of Amun/Ammon, alluding to his divine parentage.

Plutarch in his life of alexander[1] also gives an account of alexanders question to the oracle as to his fathers death,

Having passed through the wilderness, they came to the place where the high priest, at the first salutation, bade Alexander welcome from his father Ammon. And being asked by him whether any of his father's murderers had escaped punishment, he charged him to speak with more respect, since his was not a mortal father

[2]

So here we have evidence from a primary source which has been unchanged down the ages and also a secondary account that supports the primary source.

These are just two examples, alexander is also mentioned in the quran[3] (with his godly horns) and by notable historians such as Diodorus Siculus.

There is no doubt that alexander was a real historical figure given the breadth of the primary[4] and secondary sources[5]. Given the chronological and material diversity of the evidence I would also say that alex's claim for being the son of a god is actually better evidenced, and therefore more believable, than the single source claim of jesus.

1.	chapter 7
2.	http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/alexandr.html
3.	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great_in_the_Quran
4.	1000's of coins and statues scattered all over his empire
5.	Diodorus Siculus, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Arrian, Plutarch & Justin

[Graybeard]

Hi

I recently read you main page on why won't God heal amputees. I felt like I could give a valid answer to this question, so I have written a post at http://wordaboveyourname.com/healing/healing-wont-god-heal-amputees/

I would love to hear what you think of this

Kind regards

[name removed]

I read your site. You have made two mistakes:

1. picking a verse out of context to justify your delusion. It is good that you see that God does not heal amputees, but bad that  you use something taken at random and deceptively giving it to us and relying on our having no intelligence to see through your deception.

2. Blasphemy. You have misrepresented God's word. He says one thing and he says it quite clearly. You then call Him a liar. Why would anyone who calls themselves a Christian want to do that?

Let's see what you say:

The author makes the following statement: “God is all-powerful. Therefore, God can do anything, and regenerating a leg is trivial”

As a statement, that is sound. However, the question shouldn’t be about what God can do, rather what he will do according to his Word. As Psalm 138:2 states, God has “hast magnified thy word above all thy name”. Therefore he will act according to his Word, rather than his ability.

Then let us look at the content of the Psalm that you quoted:

Psalms:138:1: I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
Psalms:138:2: I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The Pslamist then continues with all the things that God does for him and how God does them perfectly and he concludes with:

Psalms:138:8: The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.


Obviously a missing leg would concern someone, yet God does absolutely nothing.

Can you explain yourself? (If not to us then at least to God, for Whose Word you seem to have no respect at all.)

[WordAboveYourName]

jdawg70

I find the idea of promoting the idea that, in order to better solve a problem, one should reduce there focus on the actual problem to be rather irresponsible

You know what, I never actually thought about it like that, simply because I know from experience (as well as the word) that God is bigger than my problems.
I know that may sound strange, dangerous or irresponsible to everyone on here, but it's been proven in my life time and time again.

Nam

Who decides what is literal, and what is not? It seems to me you[1] decide. Which invalidates the Bible and makes it fiction

Difficult to discuss in general terms. Jesus spoke in images and stories many times. I don't know anyone who believes he became a loaf of bread when he said "I am the bread of life"
To me it's pretty clear when I read it, but it seems pretty hard to answer your question. Something I'll have to think about, how best to explain to people. Thanks

ParkingPlaces

In my almost long life I've watched people pray for healings many dozens of times without noticeable results

I was asked to give examples of healings I've seen, not the failures. I too have experienced failure, including the death of people I'm praying for (although in every case so far, the doctors were surprised by the course of events, and the patients saw a certain amount of recovery). I'm sure I'm on the right track, but I've certainly not "made it" yet. As I've said, I haven't seen any amputees healed yet.

So you might think about extending your definition to cover situations where such reversals are not medically expected

Good point. Similarly to my response above to jdawg70, because I don't see anything as impossible for God, I sometimes forget the difference in medical terms.

No prayer was involved, just real serious chemo and radiation therapy and stuff

I hope no one on here has got the impression that I'm against the medical profession. With the state of the church at the moment it's a damn good job we have great scientists and doctors. Personally I wouldn't be alive without them, as I almost died when I was two, but I was saved by my neighbour who was a nurse.

Much further, by the way, then you will ever get it while participating here

This comment was what led me to decide to finish up here. Thanks for reminding me of what is important.

Do it enough, and all of us will become believers.

Thanks for your considered comment, I take what you've said seriously.

Ataraxia
Not sure there's much to respond to there. Some people will insist there must be a natural explanation for everything. Like my unbelieving friend I mentioned. He still doesn't believe in God, he just believes that there must be something natural that science doesn't explain yet. I agree to a certain extent, obviously we are always discovering new things, but when you see this often enough, the options that deny God get less and less attractive.

[WordAboveYourName]

One final comment.

Thanks to everyone who responded explaining why you do what you do on this website. It makes a lot more sense now, however, I hope you don't judge every believer by the actions of a few extremists.

Graybeard

I wasn't going to answer any more comments, but since you are the only person to make a scriptural argument, I would like to respond to you.

Based on your comment, I do wonder whether you read through this thread. My point is that God did what he needed to do, when he sacrificed Jesus. He won a legal victory over sin and sickness. That's not a God who "does absolutely nothing". He then empowered his church with his Holy Spirit, and told them to go do the things that Jesus had started.

Regarding the psalmist, Jesus said in Matthew 13:17 that the old testament prophets and righteous men longed to see the days that we live in. David was able to look forward to a time when God would defeat the authority of sin and sickness, and give us the power to overcome the ability of sin and sickness. We don't have to look forward to it any more, we can live in it

Antidote, Angus and Alexis, and William
Yes, I will certainly pray for you. Not to try to convert you, but because Jesus paid for it.
Would prefer to lay hands on you physically, but it can be done from a distance as well. I'm not likely to be back here any more, but I assume if you PM me it will send me an email? Anyway, if you want to let me know your real names, that would be great, but not essential.

Thanks to everyone for your comments, obviously some were much more constructive than others, but I'm sure you can say that about Christians as well!

[Ataraxia]

 
Ataraxia
Not sure there's much to respond to there. Some people will insist there must be a natural explanation for everything. Like my unbelieving friend I mentioned. He still doesn't believe in God, he just believes that there must be something natural that science doesn't explain yet. I agree to a certain extent, obviously we are always discovering new things, but when you see this often enough, the options that deny God get less and less attractive.

It's not an insistence, it's an inevitability. If there is a natural event it follows that there is a natural explanation. That, however, says nothing about whether there is or isn't something supernatural behind that natural explanation.

I'll use the resurrection as an example. So, for the sake of argument, Jesus was dead and came back to life some days later. With our current understanding and knowledge of nature and how it appears to work in a consistent and predictable manner, the resurrection is impossible. However, if it did happen then our understanding of nature changes as there is a natural explanation for it. By all means, it could well be a change in the natural laws to allow it to happen, but the change is all that can be observed and not how they were changed, if it was the supernatural that did it. If you are to insist that they were changed by God, that he caused a glitch in the matrix, then you need a different method - one that doesn't pander to naturalism, but supernaturalism. I did refer to that previously but you failed to come up with any goods. Quelle surprise.

[Anfauglir]

Antidote, Angus and Alexis, and William
Yes, I will certainly pray for you. Not to try to convert you, but because Jesus paid for it.
Would prefer to lay hands on you physically, but it can be done from a distance as well. I'm not likely to be back here any more, but I assume if you PM me it will send me an email?

So what you are saying is, you have turned up here with some fantastic claims, but you're not going to stick around to bear the results of the (IMO) inevitable failures?

I'm not surprised you think your success rate is so high if that's the way you do things.

[Nam]

WAYN,

In reply to me: you're telling the wrong person. Tell that to your fellow Christians who state and believe the Bible is 100% literal. I, and "we" know it is not. It's like a fictional novel today: stories, fictional people etc., telling stories in telling you (or suggesting) how to live; to do and not do with real places, and perhaps a few "real"[1] people to guide one along, to make it seem more realistic. Saying it's true doesn't make it true. A whole bunch of people believing it's true doesn't make it true. Real places or objects found in it doesn't make it true. What would make it true is evidence[2], and the stories of the Bible lacks considerably in that department.

-Nam

1.	unconfirmed for the most part
2.	non biased

[ThatZenoGuy]

Angus and Alexis
Yes, I will certainly pray for you.

You mean "you two"?
Okay...just kidding...you don't get it anyway...

Not to try to convert you, but because Jesus paid for it.

Paid for my eye?
Then why is it all messed up?
I WANT A REFUND!

Would prefer to lay hands on you physically, but it can be done from a distance as well.

How about no, being that prayer does not  work.

[Antidote]

Angus and Alexis
Yes, I will certainly pray for you.

You mean "you two"?
Okay...just kidding...you don't get it anyway...

Not to try to convert you, but because Jesus paid for it.

Paid for my eye?
Then why is it all messed up?
I WANT A REFUND!

Would prefer to lay hands on you physically, but it can be done from a distance as well.

How about no, being that prayer does not  work.

what he said.

Would prefer to lay hands on you physically, but it can be done from a distance as well.

That's creepy as hell o.o

[Hatter23]

It's quite possible to come up with incorrect conclusions using very sound logic. Truth and logic don't have to go together, although logic will certainly result in truth more times than not.

Logic is a process of identying errors in an argument in order to develop an argument without errors. That being said, When the premises that begin the logic process are flawed, the knowledge of the person making the argument in incomplete, it is quite possible to be perfectly logical and wrong.

In a lot of ways logic is a verbal equivalent of scientific method. It isn't about creating absolute truth, it is about identifying and eliminating errors to get closer to the truth.

[Hatter23]

If I am reading his article correctly, it seems that he is saying it's not on god to heal an amputee, the burden is on the believer.  In other words, if just one believer (he said it didn't need to be millions praying, just one), had enough belief/faith - it would happen.

Therefore, no one believes sufficiently or correctly in god for god to provide a restoration of the amputee.

Which leads us back to the question "Why wont God heal amputees?" Because, after all, in this senario God was one to set the bar so high AND hasn't made anyone sufficiently faithful for it to happen.

Apologetics; the process of creating a lot of words to avoid the obvious conclusion evidence leads you to.

[Graybeard]

One final comment.

Graybeard

Based on your comment, I do wonder whether you read through this thread.

Wonder no more, I did that and I read your referenced website.

My point is that God did what he needed to do, when he sacrificed Jesus.

Really, God didn’t do that, did He? Jesus was there in Heaven at Creation[1] – He is there in Heaven again. Where is the sacrifice? If I sacrifice a small she-goat at the Temple of Mercury, I don’t expect to find the goat back in its shed, do I?

So, where was this sacrifice?

He won a legal victory over sin and sickness.

There are two things wrong here:

1.   It’s not “legal”
2.     It was God who created sickness and evil[2], and it is He Who uses sickness and evil, isn’t it?

That's not a God who "does absolutely nothing".

Well, there are plenty here, and others who will give it some critical thought, who will disagree: He really did do nothing.

He then empowered his church with his Holy Spirit, and told them to go do the things that Jesus had started.

No, you have that the wrong way round. People latched on to the idea of being priests of this new religion[3] to make a good living and then an hierarchy formed that resulted in many Churches who cannot agree amongst themselves what it was that God actually said.

Regarding the psalmist, Jesus said in Matthew 13:17 that the old testament prophets and righteous men longed to see the days that we live in. … We don't have to look forward to it any more, we can live in it

This is quite illogical. Are you suggesting that 2013 is what the psalmist was referring to, rather than say, 1703 or 1412?

Anyway, do I understand that you believe that God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit disappeared off after the resurrection and have left us to our own resources but with magical healing powers and an ability to move mountains, etc? You wonder why we have doctors, don’t you?

1.	John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
2.	Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? Jer:18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
3.	There were always priests of some religion: people who thought they understood some god or other