Author Topic: The answer to your question. [#2779]  (Read 620 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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The answer to your question. [#2779]
« on: November 16, 2013, 01:06:38 PM »
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down. We would know that we could not cause harm to one another because powers would intervene and thereby we would never choose to- sounds good, yeah? But that would be tyranny. If God both SHOWED blatent acts of miraculous healing we would fall down on our knees and worship Him...we would have no choice to make between good and bad. We'd have been bullied by goodness into accepting Him. He doesn't want that. It is good to endure evil to see how good the fight is in us; to use a movie example, think 'Two Face' in The Dark Knight. A 'good man' driven to almost killing a child through the woe he had to endure. In reality, once tested, he made the dark choice. He chose the degregation of good.
It would also spoil nature. God made Nature, we have no reason to think this was a 'throwaway' idea of His or that our temporal happiness weighs more than His plans for it. He made rules for it and they would not be rules (merely chaos) if He, haphazardly, occassionaly decided that "in this instance" they won't apply.
If you accidentally dropped off a cliff and He saved you he would either HAVE to save all murder victioms dropped off cliffs as well, or be 'guilty' of their murder in part himself by deciding not to come in on that occassion. He just doesn't rip up the rulebook.
 
Uncaring? This is He who died (nailed to a cross) so that He might understand and thereby empathise with our suffering. But NO suffering is as great as the joy we will have with Him in the end. It simply does not weigh against it in the slightest.
 
By the way, He also does not defy logic. A man losing a limb might lead to some good (he might fall in love with his nurse, he could have lost his arm saving a baby, the removed arm might help research solve a particular cure...who knows! He does. The stump might have a festering of bacteria upon it- a current woe- but those particular genes might evolve one day into the dominant, moral creatures of the future!). In Britain, remember that democracy was (all be it, slowly) created via the beheading of a monarch. God didn't grow that head back, thank God. The current western cultures exist as they are after Rome burnt, Ancient Greece fell and we suffered a million mistakes. Harsh, yes, but worth it.
 
If all this were otherwise, we'd be in Heaven. The POINT of Christianity is that we are not in heaven but hopeful of getting there.
 
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[name removed]
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Offline shnozzola

Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2013, 01:26:00 PM »
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If God both SHOWED blatent acts of miraculous healing we would fall down on our knees and worship Him...we would have no choice to make between good and bad. We'd have been bullied by goodness into accepting Him.
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He doesn't want that.

WHY?

Your answer proves logically that the Christian god you worship doesn't exist.  Why would a god set things up that way?  The hoops you create for the logic of your god to make sense, do not make sense.  Examine this objectively and you may find you agree.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 01:31:07 PM by shnozzola »
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2013, 01:27:33 PM »
Excellent rationalizations, generally speaking. They should allow you to to continue believing in your customized version of god for the foreseeable future.

Please forgive those of us less capable of warping reality. Our disability forces us to confront the world more directly, and ask trite questions of those who appreciate delusions and such. Our interest, alas, is in real answers.

Our questions are trite, by the way, because that is about all a typical believer can handle. We err on the side of caution.

I hope you weren't inconvenienced too much, and forced to come up with too many new belief customizations. It is a cruel joke we play, isn't it. Making believers actually think for a few seconds before they can wriggle their way back out of reality. Which they apparently do by recalibrating their belief system to rationalize away yet another inconvenient thought.

I'll admit it. We're mean. Making people think. The nerve!

By the way, spoiling nature never bothered your god. As per your book, there was this flood once…
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online One Above All

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2013, 01:30:22 PM »
So lizards, starfish and such - not to mention scientists - are able to break the laws of the Universe, but your god can't? What a pansy. You should worship Me instead.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2013, 01:39:21 PM »
Your 'answer' flies in the face of logic and sense.  Modern medicine can perform feats that would seem truly miraculous, even godlike, to people of Jesus's time, so your argument is like saying that doctors should refrain from healing people because it would 'bully' them into making certain choices.  Or that nobody should intervene to stop people from committing, say, murder, because it would 'bully' them into making certain choices.  Doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think of it that way, does it?

Online wright

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2013, 01:58:34 PM »
We'd have been bullied by goodness into accepting Him. He doesn't want that.

He doesn't? Are you fucking kidding  me? What's all that fine print about burning forever if I don't love him, then? That's not just bullying, that's fucking extortion.

Though if you're one of those Christians who rationalizes away hell and eternal punishment, then disregard the above. Apologies for the language, all, but there's a limit to the rationalizing and compartmentalizing I can take.

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It would also spoil nature. God made Nature, we have no reason to think this was a 'throwaway' idea of His or that our temporal happiness weighs more than His plans for it. He made rules for it and they would not be rules (merely chaos) if He, haphazardly, occassionaly decided that "in this instance" they won't apply.

Your particular version of god isn't all-powerful, then.

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If you accidentally dropped off a cliff and He saved you he would either HAVE to save all murder victioms dropped off cliffs as well, or be 'guilty' of their murder in part himself by deciding not to come in on that occassion. He just doesn't rip up the rulebook.

Bullshit. By that logic, he ripped it up repeatedly if we are to believe the book he allegedly inspired.
 
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But NO suffering is as great as the joy we will have with Him in the end. It simply does not weigh against it in the slightest.

Then where is the EVIDENCE of this joy, that an all-knowing god would know would convince every human being? I didn't choose to become an atheist. As I realized there was no objective evidence for the Self Projection As God I'd been worshipping and praying to for 15 years, my belief faded.
 
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The current western cultures exist as they are after Rome burnt, Ancient Greece fell and we suffered a million mistakes. Harsh, yes, but worth it.

Native Americans (those very few of their descendants that are left) might possibly disagree. As might a few other millions of those who suffered in the wars, slavery and tyrannies that got us to this point.
 
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If all this were otherwise, we'd be in Heaven. The POINT of Christianity is that we are not in heaven but hopeful of getting there.
 
The best,
[name removed]

Again, an all-powerful, all-loving god (such as Christians typically claim to believe in), would be capable of creating the human race in "heaven" from the get-go. To quote Woody Allen: "If God exists, I think the worst you can say is that he's an underachiever."

Actually, Mr. Allen, if god exists one could say a lot worse about him.
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Online Aaron123

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2013, 03:15:42 PM »
All this is a long-winded way of saying "do not expect god to do anything, ever".

Once again, I see no difference between this, and a non-existence god.

I also expect, once again, for nobody to explain to me what the difference is.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Nick

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2013, 03:55:59 PM »
I think I understand.  If God healed an amputee then we would all see His goodness and want to worship him, treat others with respect, and try to be the best people on Earth.  God can't have all that kindness all around. He wants conflict, confusion, and evil to run amok.  He has Hell property to fill up.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline hickdive

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 03:58:24 PM »
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down.

So, talking snakes, people living inside whales, worldwide floods, resurrection of the dead etc. DON'T break the laws of the universe?
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2013, 03:58:52 PM »
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down. We would know that we could not cause harm to one another because powers would intervene and thereby we would never choose to- sounds good, yeah? But that would be tyranny. If God both SHOWED blatent acts of miraculous healing we would fall down on our knees and worship Him...we would have no choice to make between good and bad.

You'll be explaining this to all the Christians who pray for people to get better then... and to those Christians who believe that prayers for healing have been answered?

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We'd have been bullied by goodness into accepting Him. He doesn't want that.

Ah, so you're just some other God botherer who elevates their position to God's mouthpiece.

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It is good to endure evil to see how good the fight is in us; to use a movie example, think 'Two Face' in The Dark Knight. A 'good man' driven to almost killing a child through the woe he had to endure. In reality, once tested, he made the dark choice. He chose the degregation of good.

Yes, let's stick with The Dark Knight theme... If we follow the line of reasoning from your post, then your God is a fucking Joker.

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It would also spoil nature. God made Nature, we have no reason to think this was a 'throwaway' idea of His or that our temporal happiness weighs more than His plans for it. He made rules for it and they would not be rules (merely chaos) if He, haphazardly, occasionally decided that "in this instance" they won't apply.

Then his rules are screwy. Why not make Nature differently?

Again, you'll be explaining this to Christians who believe he does occasionally decide to intervene. I'm also finding it difficult to believe that you don't believe God doesn't occasionally intervene while also being a Christian. What do you think Jesus is for Christ's sake?

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If you accidentally dropped off a cliff and He saved you he would either HAVE to save all murder victioms dropped off cliffs as well, or be 'guilty' of their murder in part himself by deciding not to come in on that occasion. He just doesn't rip up the rulebook.

Again, explain this to Christians.
 
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Uncaring? This is He who died (nailed to a cross) so that He might understand and thereby empathise with our suffering. But NO suffering is as great as the joy we will have with Him in the end. It simply does not weigh against it in the slightest.

I knew I was right to not believe that you don't think God intervenes on occasion. Do you not realise how you've undone the whole point of your spiel with this? You inconsistent, hypocritical, compartmentaliser.
 
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By the way, He also does not defy logic. A man losing a limb might lead to some good (he might fall in love with his nurse, he could have lost his arm saving a baby, the removed arm might help research solve a particular cure...who knows! He does. The stump might have a festering of bacteria upon it- a current woe- but those particular genes might evolve one day into the dominant, moral creatures of the future!). In Britain, remember that democracy was (all be it, slowly) created via the beheading of a monarch. God didn't grow that head back, thank God.

Are you feeling nauseous after so much spinning? Well if that doesn't make you sick, this will:

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The current western cultures exist as they are after Rome burnt, Ancient Greece fell and we suffered a million mistakes. Harsh, yes, but worth it.

Yes, that's right, you're thankful and find it worthwhile that civilisations were wiped out, specifically, in this case, of a civilisation that was ahead of its times and probably on its way to advancing humanity by today's standard. That was until some pious, sword wielding, power hungry Christians came along and halted human endeavour and progression by about 2000 years. Nice one.

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If all this were otherwise, we'd be in Heaven. The POINT of Christianity is that we are not in heaven but hopeful of getting there.

Yes, the POINT of Christianity is to put us all under some stupid test to reach a destination that could easily have been reached from the off, if God didn't have some inferiority complex.
 
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The best,
[name removed]

Meh, I've seen better.

EDIT: Spelling
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 04:25:27 PM by Ataraxia »
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Astreja

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2013, 01:54:43 AM »
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down.

I don't see any problem with doing that.  If I had the ability to break such laws and it would relieve someone's suffering, I'd do it.

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It is good to endure evil to see how good the fight is in us...

Nope; sorry.  Pain is pain, not some higher purpose.  Some people rise above suffering, while others are destroyed by it.  It has little to do with character and much to do with environment and the support of others.

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If you accidentally dropped off a cliff and He saved you he would either HAVE to save all murder victioms dropped off cliffs as well, or be 'guilty' of their murder in part himself by deciding not to come in on that occasion.

Your god is already guilty if it cares more about its "rulebook" than about living beings.

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But NO suffering is as great as the joy we will have with Him in the end. It simply does not weigh against it in the slightest.

That's what your religion has led you to believe, but I think you're absolutely wrong.  I believe that there is no life after death, and that you will never get to experience that joy no matter how deeply you believe.
 
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A man losing a limb might lead to some good (he might fall in love with his nurse, he could have lost his arm saving a baby, the removed arm might help research solve a particular cure...

"Might" in this case is far from right.   ;)  There seems to be a horrible amputee-to-good ratio.  Perhaps your god could help out a bit here by at least doing away with diabetic neuropathy, so that people struggling with diabetes don't also have to struggle with limb amputations.

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In Britain, remember that democracy was (albeit slowly) created via the beheading of a monarch.

You do know, don't you, that democracy is a word with Greek roots, and that it was invented in ancient Greece long before any British monarchs were executed?
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 04:46:12 PM »
  There seems to be a horrible amputee-to-good ratio.  Perhaps your god could help out a bit here by at least doing away with diabetic neuropathy, so that people struggling with diabetes don't also have to struggle with limb amputations.



Might be nice if he did something about phantom pain as well...that seems a pretty pointless bit of extra suffering.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2013, 07:04:15 AM »
In Britain, remember that democracy was (all be it, slowly) created via the beheading of a monarch.

Nah, it took about 600 years of bloodshed before a monarch could be executed (to be replaced by a de facto monarch).

If you've got half an hour to spare have a look here;
http://www.parliament.uk/education/teaching-resources-lesson-plans/history-of-parliament-timeline/

Now we still don't have proportional representation or an elected head of state, but as Mr Churchill said

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It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried
;)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2013, 02:45:39 AM »
God is able to break all laws and make the universe.

Cannot break laws in the universe.


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Offline screwtape

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2013, 10:16:05 AM »
Quote from: #2779
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down.

So what?  I don't see the problem here.

I think you have misunderstood the question.  My boiler plate explanation:
There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.


Quote from: #2779
We would know that we could not cause harm to one another because powers would intervene and thereby we would never choose to- sounds good, yeah?

Yeah.

Quote from: #2779
But that would be tyranny.

It's tyranny anyway.  "Obey me or suffer infinite tortured in hell."  That is known as a deal you cannot refuse, like in the Godfather.  It is extortion.  It is illegal as well as cruel and immoral.

Quote from: #2779
If God both SHOWED blatent acts of miraculous healing we would fall down on our knees and worship Him...we would have no choice to make between good and bad.

That is untrue if you believe the bible.  IN the OT he did blatant miracles all the time, and 5 minutes later the jews were worshipping idols.  So, your reason is completely unbiblical.

Quote from: #2779
We'd have been bullied by goodness into accepting Him.

And threat of hell isn't being bullied?  And frankly, bullying is he main MO.  Read the story of Job.  At the end of it , yhwh pretty much tells Job to STFU and take what he gives him, or else, because he is bigger and badder.

If god really did not want to bully us into accepting him, there would be no bad consequences for not choosing him.

Quote from: #2779
He doesn't want that.

He does, if the bible is to be believed.

Quote from: #2779
It is good to endure evil to see how good the fight is in us;

why?  If god is omniscient, then he need not test us.  He already knows how good the fight in us is.  The test would be unnecessarily subjecting people to stress and pain.

Quote from: #2779
to use a movie example,

?  That's all this is to you, isn't it?  It is like a movie, only real life.  A LARP. You get to play a character in a pretend drama.  That's fine.  But's please not base national policy on your game, okay?  And please don't expect other people to want to play.

Quote from: #2779
It would also spoil nature.

This line of reasoning is ridiculous. Your unspoken assumptions are invalid.  If he created the rules, he can change them at will.  And what is to say the rules he created are even good rules or fair rules?

Quote from: #2779
If you accidentally dropped off a cliff and He saved you he would either HAVE to save all murder victioms dropped off cliffs as well,

What would be wrong with that?  That would seem more just to me. 

Let's do a little thought experiment.  If you suddenly got super powers and could save people dropped off cliffs, would you do it?  I would.  No doubt.  So what makes it okay for you or I to do it, but not the guy in charge?

Quote from: #2779
Uncaring? This is He who died (nailed to a cross)

He didn't die.  Die is dead.  He came back.  Not dead.  More like an extended nap. 

Quote from: #2779
so that He might understand and thereby empathise with our suffering.

As I pointed out already, an omniscient being need not do anything to understand a situation. He already knows.  So either the whole "nailed to a cross" thing was just a bit of theater, or god is not omniscient.  Take your pick.


Quote from: #2779
But NO suffering is as great as the joy we will have with Him in the end. It simply does not weigh against it in the slightest.

And you know this, how...?
 
Quote from: #2779
A man losing a limb might lead to some good

Riiiight.  But I am sure, in the balance, most people would be happier with all their limbs.   

Quote from: #2779
If all this were otherwise, we'd be in Heaven. The POINT of Christianity is that we are not in heaven but hopeful of getting there.

Why not just create us in heaven in the first place?  Why the intermediate physical world, with the rules and the suffering?  Why make our default destination hell?  I think you are very confused.
 
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2013, 11:21:40 AM »
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down.

So, talking snakes, people living inside whales, worldwide floods, resurrection of the dead etc. DON'T break the laws of the universe?

aww you beat me to it.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Nam

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Re: The answer to your question. [#2779]
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2013, 02:42:48 PM »
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down.

Which are what, exactly?

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We would know that we could not cause harm to one another because powers would intervene and thereby we would never choose to- sounds good, yeah?

Choose to what, exactly?

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But that would be tyranny.

Tyranny for whom, exactly?

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If God both SHOWED blatent acts of miraculous healing we would fall down on our knees and worship Him...we would have no choice to make between good and bad. We'd have been bullied by goodness into accepting Him.

And how does that not already happen now, exactly?

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He doesn't want that. It is good to endure evil to see how good the fight is in us; to use a movie example, think 'Two Face' in The Dark Knight. A 'good man' driven to almost killing a child through the woe he had to endure. In reality, once tested, he made the dark choice. He chose the degregation of good.

Your point, exactly?

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It would also spoil nature. God made Nature, we have no reason to think this was a 'throwaway' idea of His or that our temporal happiness weighs more than His plans for it. He made rules for it and they would not be rules (merely chaos) if He, haphazardly, occassionaly decided that "in this instance" they won't apply.

This sounds like nonsense compared to the already existing world of today, no?

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If you accidentally dropped off a cliff and He saved you he would either HAVE to save all murder victioms dropped off cliffs as well, or be 'guilty' of their murder in part himself by deciding not to come in on that occassion. He just doesn't rip up the rulebook.

Though, according to the Bible, its "rulebook" doesn't seem to apply to it, now does it?
 
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Uncaring? This is He who died (nailed to a cross) so that He might understand and thereby empathise with our suffering. But NO suffering is as great as the joy we will have with Him in the end. It simply does not weigh against it in the slightest.

How does one suffer from preparation of one's fate? How does one suffer from like "humans" when they themselves do not actually live as a human without its own preparation beforehand of knowledge and supposed "magic"? How does one suffer for others when they know the outcome beforehand because they set up everything to happen as they planned? How does one suffer by blaming the very people in which they "die" for in the first place?

I don't get it.
 
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By the way, He also does not defy logic. A man losing a limb might lead to some good (he might fall in love with his nurse, he could have lost his arm saving a baby, the removed arm might help research solve a particular cure...who knows! He does. The stump might have a festering of bacteria upon it- a current woe- but those particular genes might evolve one day into the dominant, moral creatures of the future!). In Britain, remember that democracy was (all be it, slowly) created via the beheading of a monarch. God didn't grow that head back, thank God. The current western cultures exist as they are after Rome burnt, Ancient Greece fell and we suffered a million mistakes. Harsh, yes, but worth it.

So, it took the deaths of countless to make it all "worth it", in the end?
 
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If all this were otherwise, we'd be in Heaven. The POINT of Christianity is that we are not in heaven but hopeful of getting there.

You be hopeful, I'll rest in actuality.

-Nam
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 02:44:48 PM by Nam »
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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