Author Topic: Creationists: Describe The Theory of Evolution, properly (And Why You Disagree)  (Read 11821 times)

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Offline Antidote

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I mean, why the fuck would a mousetrap even bother to catch mice? It can't eat them.

Doesn't have to.  For the irreducible complexity argument to work, the device/organ must exist with all of it's parts or none.
Since it's obvious that the mousetrap can exist in many, many forms, and with an astonishingly small number of parts the argument fails.

It's astounding that anybody still bothers to use that stupid strawman any more.  Well, the ignorant I suppose.

You fail to understand the point. It's either a mousetrap, or it's not. If you want to use a mousetrap and only have a wooden board, you'll be catchin' a whole lot of nothin'.

You fail to understand that the mousetrap can still function with many (re: all but one) of it's parts removed.
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Offline MadBunny

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That's why they shouldn't go around proclaiming the fact of evolution, considering our knowledge is rather limited compared to 100 years from now.

Evolution has plenty of facts to back it up as a theory.
Just because you remain ignorant as to how it works does not change that.

Thus far no alternative has emerged to contradict it.  None.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as your claims have no evidence they are dismissed summarily.
Come back when you have real evidence with scientific rigor attached to it.
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Offline MadBunny

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You fail to understand the point. It's either a mousetrap, or it's not. If you want to use a mousetrap and only have a wooden board, you'll be catchin' a whole lot of nothin'.

If you're going to troll do it with somebody else.
Your lack of literacy is not my problem.  Go to the link I posted, read the one page article.  If you can't do that, don't bother responding.

The article clearly demonstrates how it's not only possible but rather easy to reduce the number of parts in a mousetrap and still have it potentially catch mice.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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There's a lot of space on this Earth to start digging for that poodle. Maybe they shouldn't assume that T-Rex and poodle lived far apart from each other.

You seriously must be yanking our chains...

Then what will you assume could exist?

A trilobite dancing with a modern primate?

Perhaps a Megalodon playing tee-ball with a Meganeura?


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Offline skeptic54768

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You seriously must be yanking our chains...

Then what will you assume could exist?

A trilobite dancing with a modern primate?

Perhaps a Megalodon playing tee-ball with a Meganeura?

It's because the geologic column doesn't exist anywhere except the textbooks. For example, if I went in my backyard and dug up a T-Rex, would the "Jurassic era" then be in my backyard?

Fossils are found willy nilly all over the place. No way to tell columns and eras from that. My backyard point testifies to that fact.
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Offline Antidote

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You seriously must be yanking our chains...

Then what will you assume could exist?

A trilobite dancing with a modern primate?

Perhaps a Megalodon playing tee-ball with a Meganeura?

It's because the geologic column doesn't exist anywhere except the textbooks. For example, if I went in my backyard and dug up a T-Rex, would the "Jurassic era" then be in my backyard?

Fossils are found willy nilly all over the place. No way to tell columns and eras from that. My backyard point testifies to that fact.

Except for the fact that it exists everywhere including the Grand Canyon, a favorite among YECs, which I find incredibly entertaining and ironic.

You also have to use more than a garden trowel, and dig more than 10 feet in order to get anything demonstrable. Argument from Incredulity fallacy at it's finest.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 02:22:06 AM by Antidote »
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Offline skeptic54768

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You seriously must be yanking our chains...

Then what will you assume could exist?

A trilobite dancing with a modern primate?

Perhaps a Megalodon playing tee-ball with a Meganeura?

It's because the geologic column doesn't exist anywhere except the textbooks. For example, if I went in my backyard and dug up a T-Rex, would the "Jurassic era" then be in my backyard?

Fossils are found willy nilly all over the place. No way to tell columns and eras from that. My backyard point testifies to that fact.

Except for the fact that it exists everywhere including the Grand Canyon, a favorite among YECs, which I find incredibly entertaining and ironic.

You also have to use more than a garden trowel, and dig more than 10 feet in order to get anything demonstrable. Argument from Incredulity fallacy at it's finest.

The geologic column exists in the Grand Canyon?
That's where they found every fossil?
If it's not where they found every fossil, then where is the column?
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Offline Antidote

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The geologic column exists in the Grand Canyon?
Yes

That's where they found every fossil?
Strawman

If it's not where they found every fossil, then where is the column?
Everywhere.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Fossils are found willy nilly all over the place. No way to tell columns and eras from that. My backyard point testifies to that fact.



It's because the geologic column doesn't exist anywhere except the textbooks. For example, if I went in my backyard and dug up a T-Rex, would the "Jurassic era" then be in my backyard?

Its sad to see that in a modern society, there are still people who claim there is no such thing as a geological column.
Then what are you going to claim?
That there is no such thing as global warming?
That the earth is flat?

That's where they found every fossil?
If it's not where they found every fossil, then where is the column?

You know what the geological column is, right? O.o
Its not related to fossils...geo means "rock" .
Fossils are obviously not all in the same area, yet alone the grand canyon.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Everywhere.

So it can exist in my backyard?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Everywhere.

So it can exist in my backyard?

If you dig deep enough, yes.

It's not a matter of can it's a fact that it exists. Just because you can't see the geological column in your back yard doesn't mean it's not there, I can go to your back yard with an excavator, dig down to a predefined depth (with a permit of course) and DEMONSTRATE the geological column in your own back yard.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 02:35:19 AM by Antidote »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Everywhere.

So it can exist in my backyard?

If you dig deep enough, yes.

It's not a matter of can it's a fact that it exists. Just because you can't see the geological column in your back yard doesn't mean it's not there, I can go to your back yard with an excavator, dig down to a predefined depth (with a permit of course) and DEMONSTRATE the geological column in your own back yard.

So it is possible that there could be a startling discovery in my backyard that could turn evolution on its head?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Everywhere.

So it can exist in my backyard?

If you dig deep enough, yes.

It's not a matter of can it's a fact that it exists. Just because you can't see the geological column in your back yard doesn't mean it's not there, I can go to your back yard with an excavator, dig down to a predefined depth (with a permit of course) and DEMONSTRATE the geological column in your own back yard.

So it is possible that there could be a startling discovery in my backyard that could turn evolution on its head?
Possible? Yes, Likely? No.

But by all means go ahead.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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So it is possible that there could be a startling discovery in my backyard that could turn evolution on its head?

If you find a trilobite giving a Tyrannosaurus Rex a french kiss, please tell us.
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Offline William

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Such as the truth that Orta Benga was considered a monkey instead of a human back in 1904?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga

Interesting that Orta Benga was brought to the USA by a Presbyterian Missionary called Samuel Phillips Verner who purchased Orta Benga from cannibals and then exploited him as a novelty exhibit for money.

The best part of the story is that the lad was identified as a primate and nowdays science knows (with high precision) all humans are primates - just like Orta Benga. Science has certainly improved - which is why we love science  :) 

The worst part of the story is that racists still exist to this day - particularly amongst the religious right who dig for justification of it in their Bible - and find what they seek.  So unlike science there are aspects of religion that haven't improved  :(  :

Quote
Religious Racism: Texas Church Argues There's a Biblical Precedent for Strict Racial Segregation

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/religious-racism-texas-church-argues-theres-biblical-precedent-strict-racial
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 02:52:49 AM by William »
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Offline Astreja

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So it is possible that there could be a startling discovery in my backyard that could turn evolution on its head?

Possible -- But vanishingly unlikely.  You see, Skeptic, many generations of researchers have already explored vast areas and depths of this earth that would make your back yard look like a single pixel on a high-definition TV (if not smaller).  The geological evidence continues to favour evolution by a huge margin.

I continue to wonder why your faith is so utterly dependent upon denying the work of literally millions of biologists, anthropologists and geologists...

...and why you have chosen instead to defend the veracity of a questionable anthology of religious writings, composed by a foreign culture 2000-3000 years ago, in languages you probably wouldn't understand if the authors of the books walked right up to you and started speaking.

You don't do yourself or your god any honour by caricaturing things that make your worldview less comfortable.  At very least, you owe it to yourself to represent opposing viewpoints accurately, so that we can debate them on a more equal footing. 



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Offline Azdgari

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The geological column is how oil-mining companies find oil.

Oil-mining companies don't care about ideology.  They only care about what will get them their oil, and thus their money.

Interestingly, they tend to hire people who know how to interpret geology, rather than YECs.

They have no ideological reason to prefer the former over the latter.  They only care about money.

Old-Earth geologists find it for them, using stuff like consistent geological strata.  For example, old sandstone channels that were once riverbeds can be traced deep under the Earth using seismic imaging.  These can and often do host oil, depending on the nature of the rock above and beside the old channel.  This can be tens of kilometers under the surface of the Earth, and old-Earth geology is how we can figure out where that oil is.

Why don't some of those companies hire "creation scientists" to help them?
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Offline Antidote

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The geological column is how oil-mining companies find oil.

Oil-mining companies don't care about ideology.  They only care about what will get them their oil, and thus their money.

Interestingly, they tend to hire people who know how to interpret geology, rather than YECs.

They have no ideological reason to prefer the former over the latter.  They only care about money.

Old-Earth geologists find it for them, using stuff like consistent geological strata.  For example, old sandstone channels that were once riverbeds can be traced deep under the Earth using seismic imaging.  These can and often do host oil, depending on the nature of the rock above and beside the old channel.  This can be tens of kilometers under the surface of the Earth, and old-Earth geology is how we can figure out where that oil is.

Why don't some of those companies hire "creation scientists" to help them?

The hilarious part is, some of these Oil Company CEOs are self proclaimed Creationists, so they don't even trust their own people.
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Online Nam

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Science isn't perfect, and never claims to be, it's a self correcting process based on peer review. It's extremely unfortunate that he was classified as a monkey rather than a human, but our knowledge back then was extremely limited, remember that the DNA structure wasn't discovered until well after that.

That's why they shouldn't go around proclaiming the fact of evolution, considering our knowledge is rather limited compared to 100 years from now.

Just think in 100 years, they may laugh at people who thought evolution was true.

That's what people like you said a hundred years ago.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Angus and Alexis

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Just think in 100 years!

The earth could be flat for all we know, NASA could be lying!
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Online Nam

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Just think in 100 years!

The earth could be flat for all we know, NASA could be lying!

And the Sun actually does go up and down[1].

-Nam
 1. Bill O'Reilly faux pas. Nick'll get it.
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Seriously though, why do people make these arguments?

"For all we know, there is evidence that disproves evolution here!"

You might as well say

"For all we know, there is evidence that humans are actually bargfabbles on the planet footh!"
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Offline Azdgari

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Guys, Skep really doesn't believe in a natural world in the first place.  It's all just the imaginings of the "Mind of God".

That's why he can keep making these sorts of arguments.  As he understands it, science really could discover 100 years from now that the Earth is flat, becase "God" might just change his mind in the interim, and that would make the Earth turn flat.
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Online Nam

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When will gravity just be a theory.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Online jaimehlers

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It is quite silly to think that an eye could evolve on its own. Without even one piece developing, the eye wouldn't work. It would be useless while evolving in previous generations and they would die out and we would find their fossils. Yet, we don't find their fossils.
The silliness is in the assumption that the eye cannot evolve, that it would not have worked if even one 'piece' were missing, that prior versions of the eye would therefore have been useless, and that the eye would have left fossils to begin with.

Given that we have observed organisms in nature that have a stunning range of working eyes, from simple patches of photosensitive tissue all the way to eyes that are far more capable than the human eye, it is ludicrous to simply declare that no prior version of the eye can possibly have worked.

Such as the truth that Orta Benga was considered a monkey instead of a human back in 1904?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga

Such a shame that kids in schools back then were being taught the "absolute truth" that Orta Benga was a monkey. They probably got a big fat red X on their paper if they classified Orta Benga as a human. I feel sorry for him being paraded around like an animal.

Wonder why they don't teach this to kids in the textbooks today. Kinda makes you wonder what science is trying to hide from us and why they are afraid of their past. The lengths they go to in order to try and prove their wild theory is quite interesting.
Actually, I doubt Ota Benga was used in schoolbooks to begin with.  Not only that, but I think the only ones trying to push him as an example of an earlier stage of human evolution were trying to fulfill some agenda - notably, that their racist beliefs were based on science rather than prejudiced opinions.  Just like you're trying to fulfill an agenda of your own by posting here - to show that your theistic beliefs are based on facts, rather than your own variety of prejudiced opinions.

They sure do like to shout "We got the truth!" when they themselves don't even know if they have the truth.
You mean like you're doing here on this site?  The difference being that you assume you have the truth without having anything in the way of real, verifiable facts to back it up with.

That's why they shouldn't go around proclaiming the fact of evolution, considering our knowledge is rather limited compared to 100 years from now.

Just think in 100 years, they may laugh at people who thought evolution was true.
Except nobody who actually understands evolution attempts to portray it as an ironclad set of facts that can't possibly be proven wrong.  When people refer to evolutionary fact, they mean that it would take a bonafide miracle to come up with something that could overcome the theory of evolution at this point in time.

You can dream about how evolution might get shown to be false in the next hundred years if you want.  But there is virtually no chance of that ever happening.  Instead, what will happen is that someone will find something that fills in a hole in evolutionary theory, probably with something that nobody foresaw (just as Einstein filled the holes in Newtonian physics with quantum physics).  So it will be 'wrong' (or rather, incomplete), but not false.

There's a lot of space on this Earth to start digging for that poodle. Maybe they shouldn't assume that T-Rex and poodle lived far apart from each other.
Sure there is.  But why assume that you're going to find that ancient fossilized poodle based on the writings of a book that's only a few thousand years old?  Especially when you yourself have admitted that 'demons' have screwed with every other religion on the planet.  Claiming that yours is somehow exempt is nothing but special pleading.

It's because the geologic column doesn't exist anywhere except the textbooks. For example, if I went in my backyard and dug up a T-Rex, would the "Jurassic era" then be in my backyard?

Fossils are found willy nilly all over the place. No way to tell columns and eras from that. My backyard point testifies to that fact.
All this proves is that you're as utterly ignorant of geology and paleontology as you are of other branches of science.

Indeed, it's not only possible to tell geological columns and eras from fossils, it's been done thousands of times.  Just because your ignorance on the subject doesn't allow you to understand how it works does not then make it not work.

The geologic column exists in the Grand Canyon?
That's where they found every fossil?
If it's not where they found every fossil, then where is the column?
As I thought, you don't even know what the geological column is.  You're just going based off of the nonsense from ICR and other creationist websites which use that as a red herring to distract people from the fact that they don't have any actual evidence to support their young earth beliefs.

The real irony is that the geological column was worked out by geologists about two centuries ago.  It's even older than evolutionary theory, in other words.  By the way, it's not a literal column.  It's actually the layering of newer material onto older.  So the geological column is basically the entire crust of the Earth.

If you had the time and money to dig deep down into your backyard, you would start finding fossils.  But we're talking dozens of feet just to find relatively recent fossils (from tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago).  Think hundreds of feet to get into the dinosaur era, millions of years ago.  You aren't going to get there with a pick and spade.

So it is possible that there could be a startling discovery in my backyard that could turn evolution on its head?
Sure.  Anything is possible.  But the likelihood is practically nonexistent.

Offline Azdgari

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If you had the time and money to dig deep down into your backyard, you would start finding fossils.  But we're talking dozens of feet just to find relatively recent fossils (from tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago).  Think hundreds of feet to get into the dinosaur era, millions of years ago.  You aren't going to get there with a pick and spade.

Depending on where he lives, this may not be true.  For example, in my back yard there is an outcrop of solid, deformed granite.  Any fossils that existed in the rock here, which - given the age - would have been no more than bacterial mats, would have been destroyed by the granite's intrusion and subsequent deformation.  If he lives in such an area, then no amount of digging in his back yard will ever yield a single fossil.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Depending on where he lives, this may not be true.  For example, in my back yard there is an outcrop of solid, deformed granite.  Any fossils that existed in the rock here, which - given the age - would have been no more than bacterial mats, would have been destroyed by the granite's intrusion and subsequent deformation.  If he lives in such an area, then no amount of digging in his back yard will ever yield a single fossil.

He could dig past the core perhaps? */joking*
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Offline Antidote

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Depending on where he lives, this may not be true.  For example, in my back yard there is an outcrop of solid, deformed granite.  Any fossils that existed in the rock here, which - given the age - would have been no more than bacterial mats, would have been destroyed by the granite's intrusion and subsequent deformation.  If he lives in such an area, then no amount of digging in his back yard will ever yield a single fossil.

He could dig past the core perhaps? */joking*
*shifty eyes* or are you.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Darn you!

You found out my plan to destroy the earth by digging to the core then detonating a 50 megaton bomb!
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