Author Topic: Creationists: Describe The Theory of Evolution, properly (And Why You Disagree)  (Read 5974 times)

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Offline Nam

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Quote from: nogodsforme
When I was a JW kid back in the 1960's we were told that there was no such thing as evolution. Period. None of this halfway namby-pamby…

What I'd do?

;)

-Nam

I don't know, but you did it with Pam.... :?

I haven't seen Pam since the 7th grade, and we just did oral, that's it! I don't see the problem...or wait, is it my ex's twin sister Pam? We just talked. I swear on Nam we just talked...I think.

It's all so confusing...

  :-[

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Astreja

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Our skin heals itself when you get cut.
Unless you have venous insufficiency in your feet and lower legs, in which case you develop ulcers that can persist for years.  Human skin is frightfully easy to cut, too, unlike the hide of a cow.  A single piece of paper or low humidity can both cause nasty cuts.

Quote
We cough when something obstructs our airway so we don't die from it.
That "something" is usually food.  Not a very good design at all if the air supply and the food supply are sharing a common passageway.

Quote
Poop comes out instead of staying inside of us until we blow up.
Not always, and not particularly well.  There are a lot of examples of structural and functional problems in the lower gastrointestinal tract.  The long "small" intestine in the human body is prone to life-threatening obstructions, the colon and distal small intestine may be afflicted with Crohn's disease, and then there are hemorrhoids.

Now, if *I* were designing a digestive system I'd make it more efficient so there would be less waste, better extraction of energy from the food, and fewer parts.  From the time you take a bite of a sandwich and poop out the end products, that sandwich passes the mouth, palate, throat, esophagus, stomach, small and large intestines (passing through several valves along the way, all of which are prone to malfunction), and the liver, gallbladder and pancreas also have to get involved.  What a mess.

Quote
Our eyes water when dust gets into it to wash it out.
Our eyes also require a lot of technological assists in order to focus properly, especially as we age.  Neurological conditions, cataracts, glaucoma, macular degeneration and diabetes can blind us no matter how much dust we wash out.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:10:49 AM by Astreja »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Or it means there is a common designer.
Who acted in exactly the way we expect from natural evolution, and who left no signs whatsoever of their 'design'.  Indeed, who did things that make no sense in terms of design, but make perfect sense in terms of evolution.

Honestly, 'God' doesn't explain how life developed on Earth nearly as well as evolution does, and never will.  There is just too much evidence that contradicts assertions of design, and too little (in fact, virtually none) that supports those assertions.

The human body is extraordinarily designed.

Our skin heals itself when you get cut.
We cough when something obstructs our airway so we don't die from it.
Poop comes out instead of staying inside of us until we blow up.
Our eyes water when dust gets into it to wash it out.

Lots of things that couldn't have "just happened" on their own.
These things all indicate purposeful design.
quite possibly the dumbest argument put forward by a creationist EVER
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Fiji

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The human body is an absolute nightmare design wise. We're a one trick pony ... big brains, that's it, everything else is subordinate to that. Sure, we have ingenious ankles but why do we need ingenious joints specifically in our hind legs? Because we're vertical creatures trapped inside horizontal bodies.
Everything about us screams horizontality.
Some of the problems Astreja mentioned are due to our guts 'hanging' from the backbone ... an excellent design ... when you're on all fours. In humans, the intestines don't actually HANG, they're just lumped in there like a pile of dirty laundry.

Perfect example of how evolution can never go back to the drawing board. All it can do is tweak what's already there. From a design point of view, the human body only makes sense if the designer was massively drunk when putting it together or was a gigantic asshole who wanted to play a cruel joke on all of humanity.
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Offline Anfauglir

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The human body is extraordinarily designed.

Our skin heals itself when you get cut.
We cough when something obstructs our airway so we don't die from it.
Poop comes out instead of staying inside of us until we blow up.
Our eyes water when dust gets into it to wash it out.

These things all indicate purposeful design.

Others have quite successfully covered how evolution answers all your "points", so I'm going to take a different tack.

Our skin is impervious to cuts, so it never needs to heal.
Out breathing and digestive systems are completely separate, dramatically reducing the chance of our airways getting blocked.
Foodstuffs and digestion are designed so that everything is absorbed from food, so there is nothing left to excrete.
An additional nerveless fixed cornea over the eye (sorta like a natural set of goggles) prevents all grit and dust getting into our eyes in the first place.

Now THOSE would be clear evidence that the human body was designed.  You say "a designer created workarounds for all the problems that can happen with our bodies".  I say "if there was a designer, there would be no workarounds - the potential problems simply wouldn't exist in the first place".

Your four poor examples are an excellent set of reasons against a designer.  Thanks for posting them!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Iamrational

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Hey Skeptic why don't we have sonar or two eyelids?

I am always bumping into furniture in the dark and here in Arizona dust is constantly getting into my eyes.

Please ask your dude to get on that, thanks!


Offline nogodsforme

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And our big brains get us into trouble-- by telling us things that are not true. Sure that flicker out of the corner of my eye might be just a leaf, but it could be a fairy or a demon! Act accordingly.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline MadBunny

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Horses can die if hey roll around the wrong way when they're sick.  Bad design.

The appendix in humans... just kind of.. explodes.  A lot.

Things with better eye features than Humans: 
Tarsier (huge with incredibly detailed vision, may be able to see ultraviolet light),
Chameleon (360 degrees, independent),
Dragon flies (30,000 ommatidia!),
Leaf Tailed geckos (about 350 times better than humans in low light, has a membrane),
Colossal Squid (Huge, has it's own light source for seeing in the dark, deformable so it can be focused by the squid),

Mantis Shrimp.  They have 12 types of color receptors.  12, on top of that they can see in UV, infrared and have the most complex eyesight of any animal known.  They can rotate independently and are so complex the visual information is processed by the eyes rather than the brain itself.  The Mantis Shrimp eyes are broken into three parts each giving them trinocular vision in each eye.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/mantis_shrimp




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Offline MadBunny

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Second half of the huge image.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/mantis_shrimp
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 12:03:25 PM by MadBunny »
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline nogodsforme

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That stuff about the different kinds of eyes is awesome. The human eye is only average, at best.

It is only through ignorance about the rest of nature that we humans can think that we are all that and a bag of chips. What you have seems like the best thing ever, but only if you have nothing else to compare it to.[1] Every nice, smart, beautiful thing we humans have done on the planet is far outweighed by the fact that we are trying to destroy as much of it as we can, as fast as we possibly can. We can't survive without the planet, but the planet can survive without us. 

Give dolphins, dogs or elephants human advantages --mainly opposable thumbs plus the ability to read and write language-- they probably would not waste them:

1) removing all taste and nutritional value from food, and then adding them back artificially
2) tricking others to want things they don't need and can't afford, and then tricking them into going into debt
3) designing nuclear warheads with the capability to destroy all life in the world, just to threaten each other
4) putting water in disposable plastic bottles that will outlive the person drinking it.

And, oh yeah,  making up religion. &)

Intelligent design? The pinnacle of all creation? Hardly. :P
 1. It's like men who want to fool around until they marry, but want their wives to be virgins....remember the Muslim guy on this site who said that he did not want his wife to be able to compare him sexually to other men? 
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Do we eat mantis shrimp,are they delicious? Why would a God waste such detailed view of the world on something we find delicious?

 The answer is simple it evolved that way to help it's survival chances.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline MadBunny

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Do we eat mantis shrimp,are they delicious? Why would a God waste such detailed view of the world on something we find delicious?

 The answer is simple it evolved that way to help it's survival chances.

What about the cuttlefish that can reshape it's eye.  Think about that.  As humans grow older, our vision gets less and less efficient, we frequently have to wear corrective lenses, or in some cases just reshape the cornea manually.  The cuttlefish does this instinctively. 
Need to see something far away... no problem.  Need to see something close... no problem.
Thats even without all the camoflage coloration and body shaping stuff.

That would be a pretty useful thing for humans to have don'tcha think?

Just about our most adaptive feature is balls that hang down to cool sperm, which for some reason has to be a temperature completely other than the rest of the body.  If they're at the same temperature as the body; they die. Great design choices there there, god. /sarcasm



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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Do we eat mantis shrimp,are they delicious? Why would a God waste such detailed view of the world on something we find delicious?

 The answer is simple it evolved that way to help it's survival chances.

What about the cuttlefish that can reshape it's eye.  Think about that.  As humans grow older, our vision gets less and less efficient, we frequently have to wear corrective lenses, or in some cases just reshape the cornea manually.  The cuttlefish does this instinctively. 
Need to see something far away... no problem.  Need to see something close... no problem.
Thats even without all the camoflage coloration and body shaping stuff.

That would be a pretty useful thing for humans to have don'tcha think?

Just about our most adaptive feature is balls that hang down to cool sperm, which for some reason has to be a temperature completely other than the rest of the body.  If they're at the same temperature as the body; they die. Great design choices there there, god. /sarcasm
I am in agreement with you,more direct I should be? My point was more of why God would help this creature and almost all other animals,with better design than that made in "his image". Is the design of God himself that flawed that he has so many weak points that are stronger in so many like species?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline MadBunny

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I am in agreement with you,more direct I should be?
Yes I know.  You were perfectly clear.  I was just re-reinforcing your point.  Also, I wanted to throw the balls thing in there because.. well, talking about them amuses me, but it's also a pretty, if you'll pardon the term, in your face problem for ID folks.

Yep, it's one of the great big flaws in the idea of intelligent design.

Or at least intelligent design by an intelligent designer anyway.  Who knows we could all die and learn that we were supposed to be worshipping a giant mantis shrimp all this time. I'm not going to lose any sleep over that particular religion though.

Of course that isn't the real flaw in intelligent design.  The real flaw is that it isn't science and thus not only cannot be falsified, but cannot be experimented upon.  Unlike say.. evolution theory.
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Offline Fiji

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Quote from: nogodsforme
When I was a JW kid back in the 1960's we were told that there was no such thing as evolution. Period. None of this halfway namby-pamby…

What I'd do?

;)

-Nam


Hm, 'by' is Danish for 'town' ... ie. gammeleby is 'old town'
So ... Namby ... holy septic tank! Are you telling me there's an entire town of Nams?!!!!
If that's not a sign of the apocalypse, I don't know what is!!!
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline skeptic54768

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And our big brains get us into trouble-- by telling us things that are not true.

Such as molecules to man evolution?
"Billions of years old" theory?

i thought your brain was "you" according to materialism?

How can the "brain" tell "you" something?

You may not want to admit it, but you just admitted we have a soul.
otherwise, why the distinction between the brain and you?


« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 12:24:12 AM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Our skin heals itself when you get cut.
Unless you have venous insufficiency in your feet and lower legs, in which case you develop ulcers that can persist for years.  Human skin is frightfully easy to cut, too, unlike the hide of a cow.  A single piece of paper or low humidity can both cause nasty cuts.

Quote
We cough when something obstructs our airway so we don't die from it.
That "something" is usually food.  Not a very good design at all if the air supply and the food supply are sharing a common passageway.

Quote
Poop comes out instead of staying inside of us until we blow up.
Not always, and not particularly well.  There are a lot of examples of structural and functional problems in the lower gastrointestinal tract.  The long "small" intestine in the human body is prone to life-threatening obstructions, the colon and distal small intestine may be afflicted with Crohn's disease, and then there are hemorrhoids.

Now, if *I* were designing a digestive system I'd make it more efficient so there would be less waste, better extraction of energy from the food, and fewer parts.  From the time you take a bite of a sandwich and poop out the end products, that sandwich passes the mouth, palate, throat, esophagus, stomach, small and large intestines (passing through several valves along the way, all of which are prone to malfunction), and the liver, gallbladder and pancreas also have to get involved.  What a mess.

Quote
Our eyes water when dust gets into it to wash it out.
Our eyes also require a lot of technological assists in order to focus properly, especially as we age.  Neurological conditions, cataracts, glaucoma, macular degeneration and diabetes can blind us no matter how much dust we wash out.

Well, nobody said the human body has to be indestructible. That's a strawman.

Our bodies get worse and worse over generations because of sin corrupting our genes. The first humans God created wouldn't have had these problems that we have today.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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What is the physical mechanism by which sin corrupts our genes, shep?

Also, it was you who said our bodies were "extraordinarily designed".  What did you mean by that, if not that they were very well-designed?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline skeptic54768

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What is the physical mechanism by which sin corrupts our genes, shep?

Also, it was you who said our bodies were "extraordinarily designed".  What did you mean by that, if not that they were very well-designed?

They are extraordinarily designed in the sense that without a certain part of the body, it all breaks down.

Think of a mouse trap. If one part of the trap is missing, it won't work.

Nothing can evolve on its own like that. It must be created fully formed.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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What is the physical mechanism by which sin corrupts our genes, shep?

Also, it was you who said our bodies were "extraordinarily designed".  What did you mean by that, if not that they were very well-designed?

They are extraordinarily designed in the sense that without a certain part of the body, it all breaks down.

Think of a mouse trap. If one part of the trap is missing, it won't work.

Nothing can evolve on its own like that. It must be created fully formed.

Did you actually just try to use the failed mousetrap analogy? Honesty? Dude, stop going to creationist websites and just pulling shit off there and pasting it here. It's really tiresome. I mean you don't even bother to look up the opposing side on anything. You just seek out only the things that support your view and post them. Are you that biased that you can't even look at both sides before posting here?

Anyways, the mousetrap thing fails. First, b/c it's a false analogy. You can't compare non-living things to living things. Second, b/c the mousetrap CAN have parts taken off and still function as something else (such as a tie clip). You really need to take some courses in evolution or watch some YouTube videos before posting this stuff. It's lame. Watch this video please:




Oh, and meet the challenge of the OP!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 12:47:15 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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What is the physical mechanism by which sin corrupts our genes, shep?

Also, it was you who said our bodies were "extraordinarily designed".  What did you mean by that, if not that they were very well-designed?

They are extraordinarily designed in the sense that without a certain part of the body, it all breaks down.

Think of a mouse trap. If one part of the trap is missing, it won't work.

Nothing can evolve on its own like that. It must be created fully formed.

Did you actually just try to use the failed mousetrap analogy? Honesty? Dude, stop going to creationist websites and just pulling shit off there and pasting it here. It's really tiresome. I mean you don't even bother to look up the opposing side on anything. You just seek out only the things that support your view and post them. Are you that biased that you can't even look at both sides before posting here?

Anyways, the mousetrap thing fails. First, b/c it's a false analogy. You can't compare non-living things to living things. Second, b/c the mousetrap CAN have parts taken off and still function as something else (such as a tie clip). You really need to take some courses in evolution or watch some YouTube videos before posting this stuff. It's lame. Watch this video please:




Oh, and meet the challenge of the OP!

I am sorry median but it looks like we are at an impasse.

I have used the definition of evolution that came from the university of berkeley and the one straight off the wikipedia page. You said those definitions weren't good enough.

Heck, if I use the definition that talkorigins uses, you would say it's not good enough.

Maybe at this point, we should just agree to disagree. If you don't agree with evolution definitions from 3 different websites, there's nothing I can do about it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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And our big brains get us into trouble-- by telling us things that are not true.

Such as molecules to man evolution?
"Billions of years old" theory?

i thought your brain was "you" according to materialism?

How can the "brain" tell "you" something?

You may not want to admit it, but you just admitted we have a soul.
otherwise, why the distinction between the brain and you?

The brain is a complex biochemical organ and your Argument from Incredulity fallacies (over and over) will not accomplish your goal (b/c it's irrational argumentation to do so). You demonstrate flawed black/white thinking and reductionist attempts in nearly everything you post here. The simpleton mentally does not fly in science, sorry.

Btw, she admitted no such thing. Talking about the various aspects, functions, and contingencies of the brain is in no way saying we have a soul. You are, again, deliberately misrepresenting her position. That is called Bearing False Witness (a sin according to you). Does it feel good to lie for Jesus?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 12:58:07 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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I am sorry median but it looks like we are at an impasse.

I have used the definition of evolution that came from the university of berkeley and the one straight off the wikipedia page. You said those definitions weren't good enough.

Heck, if I use the definition that talkorigins uses, you would say it's not good enough.

Maybe at this point, we should just agree to disagree. If you don't agree with evolution definitions from 3 different websites, there's nothing I can do about it.

You should be sorry, b/c you haven't understood the OP. Can you read? Go back and read the OP and actually bring forth what it is asking! It doesn't ask for a copy/paste. It doesn't only ask for a definition and that's it. It asks a lot more of you than that. Did you fail to read that part? WOW. No, we're not at an 'impasse'. You are just being lazy and/or resistant to anything that doesn't fit with your worldview/method of willful ignorance.


EDIT: Here, I'll make it easy for you!

Quote
1) Properly articulate the Theory of Evolution (what it is, what it's main claims and evidences are, etc). This requires you to do your homework in order to meet this challenge. You must rightly, accurately, and correctly represent the Theory of Evolution as it is described by those in the professional field who maintain it. So you are going to have to do some research by studying those resources that understand and support the concepts.

PLACES TO START: -talkorigins.org

-http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
-http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2009/02/macroevolution-examples-and-evidence.html
-http://phylointelligence.com/observed.html#speciation

2) Once you have fully met condition #1, then describe why you disagree with the theory (TOE for short) and what your disagreement actually means to you.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 01:02:58 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Azdgari

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They are extraordinarily designed in the sense that without a certain part of the body, it all breaks down.

Think of a mouse trap. If one part of the trap is missing, it won't work.

Nothing can evolve on its own like that. It must be created fully formed.

So by "extraordinarily designed" you really meant "very simply and mundanely designed".  If you meant that, then why didn't you say that?  Aside from avoiding the sin of honesty, I mean.

Also:

What is the physical mechanism by which sin corrupts our genes, shep?

Genes are physical.  If something is meddling with them, then that something is subject to observation and experimentation.  So, out with it - spell out the phenomenon you're describing.

Also, why has the effect of "sin" so far evaded the medical community?
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Offline Astreja

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They are extraordinarily designed in the sense that without a certain part of the body, it all breaks down.

Think of a mouse trap. If one part of the trap is missing, it won't work.

Nothing can evolve on its own like that. It must be created fully formed.

Skeptic, we've demonstrated that things can evolve like that. The very fact that the human body contains so many functional but substandard parts is evidence that we acquired those parts (with all their flaws) from ancestral species.

Sometimes when a genetic change results in a new trait, it takes hundreds of generations for that trait to become useful to the organism that carries it.  It's neutral until and unless it either makes the carrier more successful for reproduction, or so unsuccessful that the line dies out.  All living organisms on the Earth today are examples of successful modifications in their genes.

A new feature becomes useful by aiding survival and reproduction, but how?  Well, perhaps an enzyme in the body becomes important if a catastrophe wipes out some of the food chain, and only animals with that enzyme can digest the food that remains.  Those are the ones that reproduce and carry on.

Perhaps the earliest version of the eye was a group of cells that were able to generate electrical energy when exposed to higher light levels.

Perhaps the liver's ancestor was a collection of cells that could store glucose or break down fat.

Oh, and there's a huge, huge difference between "indestructible" and "works well."  If a god did design the human body, it's a complete idiot.

As for "sin" corrupting genes, I second Azdgari's request:  Kindly describe the physical processes whereby a hypothetical non-physical entity can affect the chemical structure of DNA.
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Offline median

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Offline Anfauglir

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Well, nobody said the human body has to be indestructible. That's a strawman.

Our bodies get worse and worse over generations because of sin corrupting our genes. The first humans God created wouldn't have had these problems that we have today.

Whoah - hold on there Shep!  Layout the timeline for me there!

You originally said that your four examples (healing, coughing, pooping, crying) were things put in place by god to keep us live and healthy.

You are NOW saying that it is because of sin that we are having those kinds of problems.

So what is your point?  That when Yahweh kicked us out of Eden because he was so unhappy with our behaviour he immediately redesigned us "on the fly"?  That he said "hey Adam - I know you never had problems with healing before, but let me just re-engineer your skin, you'll need it in future"?   Sorry Shep - that makes no sense.  Removal from Eden was punishment, according to the Bible you know so well. 

Or are you saying that Yahweh pre-engineered the cough reflex and the ability to cry out dust before the Fall?  That he knew in advance that we would need to be able to poop in the future, and so he pre-designed us to be able to do it?  Well, great stuff - but to suggest that you admit that Yahweh knew that man would fall before the fall, so you then have to explain why he set things up that way in the first place.

And I note that you haven't bothered to address my point that your examples are all workarounds of a flawed initial design, rather than examples of a creator.  Too tricky for you to answer?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Nothing can evolve on its own like that. It must be created fully formed.

Optic cells can be used without color detection, corneas or eyeballs.

Checkmate.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Do we eat mantis shrimp,are they delicious? Why would a God waste such detailed view of the world on something we find delicious?

If i recall correctly, they are edible.

But not that great for eating, they make awesome pets though.

They can hit with the force of a bullet, a literal bullet that is.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.