Author Topic: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?  (Read 1563 times)

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2013, 04:50:07 AM »
Not even the fact that God created you and gave you life would make you worship Him.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2013, 12:06:13 PM »
Not even the fact that God created you and gave you life would make you worship Him.



We were going on the assumption that God is as real as the sun. If we take God's existence as a given, then wouldn't the fact that he created us and created all life be reason enough to worship Him and love Him?

After all, why spit in the face of someone who created all life? It seems hypocritical to enjoy all the wonderful things that God gave us while cursing Him.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2013, 03:03:02 PM »
How would you go about convincing someone that there is something as real as the sun but far more powerful and vastly more important, without any evidence? With the sun, you can point to it, describe it in detail, explain its composition, demonstrate how it helps plants grow, show how it make the weather patterns of the earth and so on.  Everyone from any culture can learn this, because there is clear, demonstrable physical evidence.

None of that exists for any of the gods that people have posited. All have the same contradictions, ambiguous tales, magical stories and need to believe invisible beings exist without any facts. You don't have to make up all this stuff about the sun. You only have to point to it and say, there it is. With gods you have to point to something else and infer that it represents the god, somehow.

And btw, even with all the evidence for the sun, and the clear fact that we would all die without it, and the fact that we are grateful for its existence every single day of our lives, we still don't worship it. You don't have to like the sun or give it praise or invite it into your heart or anything. It will still exist, still produce food, warm the planet, etc. Although is would make more sense to worship the sun than any god. Because the sun exists, and really does make life on earth possible.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2013, 07:00:30 PM »
We were going on the assumption that God is as real as the sun. If we take God's existence as a given, then wouldn't the fact that he created us and created all life be reason enough to worship Him and love Him?


We were going on the assumption that Leprechauns are as real as the sun. If we take Leprechauns existences as a given, then wouldn't the fact that he created luck and created all gold be reason enough to go to the end of the rainbow?

See what i did there?
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2013, 02:39:54 AM »
We were going on the assumption that God is as real as the sun. If we take God's existence as a given, then wouldn't the fact that he created us and created all life be reason enough to worship Him and love Him?

After all, why spit in the face of someone who created all life? It seems hypocritical to enjoy all the wonderful things that God gave us while cursing Him.

Er, no. The maximum that I can offer is a mutual respect. I certainly won't be doing no worshipping and anyone who expects it can go jump, hopefully off the pedestal they have put themselves on. Based on form, he doesn't deserve to be loved either. Perhaps I could care enough to advise him to seek psychological help, but as the saying goes - you can lead a horse to water....
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2013, 03:08:33 AM »
We were going on the assumption that God is as real as the sun. If we take God's existence as a given, then wouldn't the fact that he created us and created all life be reason enough to worship Him and love Him?

After all, why spit in the face of someone who created all life? It seems hypocritical to enjoy all the wonderful things that God gave us while cursing Him.

If he is real and our god, he isn't very good at it. If he is real, I have no respect for him.

He creates a world where he allows us to treat each other like sh*t and doesn't care at all and we're supposed to get all thanky on the dude? I don't think so. He made us vastly inferior to him (which is fine) and then lets us go out on our own simply because a couple of newbies couldn't follow his rules/resisit the enticement. So he punishes all, including his own kid, because it is more important to him that the blame gets passed on for generations than it is to correct the situation in the first place.

He choses some people, kills others. His lessons don't stick, his standards don't work, his instructions are open to interpretation, his threats are traumatizing and his emphasis on faith is effectively a ban on people such as myself who have no capability to follow blindly. He says he loves us but he depends on the likes of Pat Robertson and other cold hearted money grubbers to pass on his words. He seems to value being worshipped over all other activities and he has no sensitivity to the wants and needs of the humans that he designed to have, get this, wants and needs.

He values us only for our obedience. He lets us kill each other over questions of morality instead of making right and wrong clear enough to stop the fighting.

Yea, yea ,yea, free will and all that crap. Which is a dumb f**k way to run a planet. When there is only one way to do it right, it isn't free will. If I have to do it his way or fry.  Under those conditions, it is imposed will. Yes or no is a choice when one is asked if they want a cookie. It is not a choice when one is asked if they want their eternity to be idyllic or overly toasty.

If he made us and can't allow for our various shortcomings, fruit-caused or otherwise, if he made us and then decided to sit back and watch what happens, then he doesn't love a thing about us. He isn't going to love me, an atheist, and he isn't going to love believers such as yourself, because you're less fun than I am. So for you to get all lovey-dovey with the dude, and adore him like a Beiber fan in hopes of getting an autograph some day, is a total misuse of human emotion. When your strongest attachment in life is to a being that either doesn't exist or doesn't give a crap is way too sad.

You can call it love. But it isn't. If he is real, it is indifference, pure and simple. At best, it is indifference. If he is real, it may even be distain. Perhaps even hatred. But it isn't really love. The love I have for others and that they have for me feels completely different. You need to learn the difference.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2013, 04:45:05 AM »
So since we can't learn everything - and since you've already told us that "all good guys go to heaven regardless", there is therefore NO reason whatsoever for me to learn one single thing about "god". 

Again, thanks for clearing that up.

There is the true colors coming out. Not even the fact that God created you and gave you life would make you worship Him. And you wonder why He doesn't appear to you.

Good try, but my remarks were in reference to Dominic's god - a god who sends everyone to heaven regardless of their belief in him, or whether they worship him.  According to him, my belief, my worship, is all entirely optional - I will go to heaven regardless.

So yes - I stand right behind that answer.  If Dominic's god IS the One True God, then there IS no reason for me to learn anything about him on this world, where there are so many other things to learn that WILL cause things to change.  Dominic's god has set up a system where learning about him is indeed irrelevant, so that's his fault, not mine.

And it was Atum that created me and gave me life.  There's no reason for me to learn about any god other than Atum.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2013, 07:40:23 AM »
We were going on the assumption that God is as real as the sun.
Well done Skeptic, at last a step in the right direction.
Just keep questioning any god claims and start looking for actual evidence.
You are on your way  ;)
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2013, 08:48:32 AM »
There is the true colors coming out. Not even the fact that God created you and gave you life would make you worship Him. And you wonder why He doesn't appear to you.

I've covered why this was irrelevant to the exchange I was having above.  But I thought it might be useful to you to explain why what you posted will be correct in the first instance no matter what god is under discussion.  If you can, please try not to immediately dismiss it because you "know better" about your particular god - try to see it from the perspective of someone who has no preconceptions.

Your point is that "creating" must inevitably lead to "worship".  Even a moment's reflection should reveal the flaws in that argument as an obvious rule.  For example: assume a malevolent god creates a creature with the specific intent of causing it as much pain as possible.  In that case, would you agree that "worship for the act of creation" should be automatic?  I sincerely hope not.

So "creation", alone, is insufficient cause for worship.  What matters is WHY the creation happened - what the goal of the creator was, and what (if any) choices are given to the creation.  It is the answers to those questions that determine whether that god should be worshipped.

I would further add that "creation->worship" renders irrelevant any consideration of the merits or defects of that particular god.  Is it good?  Who cares - it created, so I will worship.  Does it want what is best for me?  Who cares - it created, so I will worship. 

By placing all the emphasis on worship being a required response for the act of creation, you render irrelevant any other characteristic of your god - and, had Satan created you, you would (by your own argument) be worshipping Satan right now.

I am sure that that is NOT the impression you wanted to give of your god.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2013, 10:22:59 AM »
Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?.

The one reason why seems quite obvious to me. One scenario you get a lifetime and in the other scenario you get immortality. In most people's minds immortality beats mortality, and honestly, the fear of our mortality is a primary motivating factor for religion in that religions tend to promote themselves as a way to overcome this seemingly insurmountable obsticle.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2013, 10:39:02 AM »
Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?

I doubt that the idea of Heaven is as strong a motivator as the idea of eternity for a couple reasons. First, there is no clear cut specified description of what Heaven is to be like and secondly, just as a lot of something we like is perceived as being better than a little of something we like, eternity is better than a mere lifetime.

---
For me, as sad as this may sound, I find the current state of human existence to be massively unfulfilling. Like one of the titles of the James Bond series says, "The World is Not Enough;," I, and perhaps others desire an existence that is exponentially more significant and fulfilling than what humanity stuck on a single rock, in a single solar system, in a single galaxy among billions currently provides. I guess the hope is that if given enough time (eternity) and health during that time, we will be able to forge a truly meaningful existence that expands the scope of our (let me say MY) experiences far beyond what this world offers.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2013, 01:33:07 PM »
We were going on the assumption that God is as real as the sun. If we take God's existence as a given, then wouldn't the fact that he created us and created all life be reason enough to worship Him and love Him?

Not if it acts like a do-nothing jerk.  One can acknowledge one's origins without fawning over an abusive or absentee parent.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is an eternity in heaven better than an atheists lifetime on earth?
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2013, 02:03:41 PM »

But let's head down a level anyway. For those family members that make it, why is spending an eternity with them, better than spending a mere lifetime with them here on earth?

Just realized I did not answer this question.  I would say that for me, it's because life here on earth just isn't nearly long enough.  So many die too young.  So many die horrible, painful deaths.  It just makes me long for an afterlife where there is not the threat of early death and shitty disease.

I agree. I fear death. I also fear poverty, but just pretending I have a magical trunk of unending money in the basement that will open up when I have no money is likely to lead me into making some stupid decisions.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.