Author Topic: What's the worst excuse Christians gave when they can't explain what you asked?  (Read 5109 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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I said I would do away with laws.

What would motivate you to do so?  A value?
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Offline Aaron123

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*facedesk*

Then what the hell is wrong with atheists morals then?

If you were an atheist you state you would not be bad, so what is the deal?

Simple.  The demons would start to control your every thoughts.  Moreso than usual.

It all boils back to the demons.   :o
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Offline skeptic54768

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I said I would do away with laws.

What would motivate you to do so?  A value?

the fact that there is no good/evil or right/wrong.

Rape would just be rape.
Murder would just be murder
Theft would just be theft.

No need to have laws against them. Laws are for things that are wrong and we can't establish why something is wrong without invoking God.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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the fact that there is no good/evil or right/wrong.

Rape would just be rape.
Murder would just be murder
Theft would just be theft.

But there are such laws.  So, something would apparently motivate you to change the way things are.  You'd find it morally right to remove those laws.

Now, I can't see why that would be your specific motivation, but in any case the fact remains that you're admitting you'd still act on values, you'd still be motivated, without a god.

No need to have laws against them. Laws are for things that are wrong and we can't establish why something is wrong without invoking God.

Invoking "God" is only a threat, a way of invoking "might makes right".  It has nothing whatsoever to do with morality.

I made this point to you earlier, and explained why.  Several times.  You've ignored it, presumably because you can't find a reason to disagree and don't want to admit it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 02:32:02 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline skeptic54768

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This all too common comment from Christians stems from their absurd and irrational belief that "Without God life has no meaning". That mindset says, "If Jesus didn't rise, then it's all pointless and I can just steal, kill, and rape with no consequence!"[/i] But this is just an emotional backlash from pondering what they think non-belief would be like (and it's based in fear of the unknown). On the contrary though, things do not play out this way in the real world. Overwhelmingly, when Christians lose their faith (in trade for sound reason) they often become more beneficial to society, AND they become happier and more productive (choosing instead to deal with the here and now of well being instead of some pie in the sky).

In short, this Christian plea is a complete LIE.

It shows me that atheists are borrowing their morals from Christianity. It's almost as if when certain people become atheists, they act more Christ-like. Very ironic.

But then again, the Lord certainly doth work in mysterious ways.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Zankuu

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skeptic, do you understand why atheists aren't necessarily nihilists?
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Offline Ataraxia

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It shows me that atheists are borrowing their morals from Christianity. It's almost as if when certain people become atheists, they act more Christ-like. Very ironic.

But then again, the Lord certainly doth work in mysterious ways.

Act more Christ-like? Listen, I'm not in the habit of sacrificing myself to myself to atone for any mistakes you make, with the expectation that you are quite happy to have me alleviate your burden. Those mistakes are your responsibility, and it's for you to make amends.
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Offline Nam

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I said I would do away with laws.

What would motivate you to do so?  A value?

the fact that there is no good/evil or right/wrong.

Rape would just be rape.
Murder would just be murder
Theft would just be theft.

No need to have laws against them. Laws are for things that are wrong and we can't establish why something is wrong without invoking God.

Such an idiotic statement.

Here are YOUR laws:

http://cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

This, since you state you are a New Testament only Christian, are all your laws. How many do you obey? I'm betting not many which means you don't put much stock in any law, Biblegod /Jesus or otherwise. If you did you wouldn't be here, would you?

-Nam
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Skeptic...

Please, in detail, detail why god is needed for good/bad to exist.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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I said I would do away with laws.

What would motivate you to do so?  A value?

the fact that there is no good/evil or right/wrong.

Rape would just be rape.
Murder would just be murder
Theft would just be theft.

No need to have laws against them. Laws are for things that are wrong and we can't establish why something is wrong without invoking God.

Wrong Shep. People have evolved to live together in communities. People have natural feelings for each other. Even Neanderthals took care of the weaker members of their communities.

One of the main things which overcomes the natural feelings people have for each other is a demon.

"When the person who is lawless comes, it will happen through Satan's effort, with all kinds of fake power, signs and wonders" 2 thes2:9 common English bible.

Look at who is saying they don't want laws. Not me the atheist. You are the one who says you do not want laws, you and your demon. You think it is not cruel to kill children. You behave badly towards other people all the time. You treat everyone as though they have the motives of your demon.

It's almost as if when certain people become atheists, they act more Christ-like. Very ironic.

At least you have learned on this site that being atheist is not as bad as being led astray by a demon to do evil.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 06:43:03 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline pianodwarf

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No need to have laws against them. Laws are for things that are wrong and we can't establish why something is wrong without invoking God.

(Setting aside for the moment the fact that that's just plain false…)

If you refrain from any particular act simply because you are being commanded to do so by an individual with the power to penalize you if you disobey him, then you are not acting as a moral agent.
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Offline screwtape

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Why are humans so special in an atheistic world?

biased self interest.



Laws are for things that are wrong...

they're not.  they are rules that allow a society to function in an egalitarian way, so that the populace does kill each other.  It is based on the society's general consensus of what "fair" is.  If it were based on objective right and wrong, every society would have identical laws.  They do not.  Compare and contrast Somalia, the US and Denmark.

Right and Wrong, Good and Evil.  These are terms we use for children and people not smart enough to understand more abstract concepts.  They are short hand.  There is no way to know what is "objectively" wrong.  There is nowhere to look it up.  There is no experiement that can be conducted to find it.  It is not written in black and white nor carved in granite.  I know you want it to be.  I know that would make things easier.  But that just is not reality.

You can bitch all you want about how atheists cannot have objective morality.  Neither can you.  You just say it, without even understanding it.  You cannot show me objective morals.  You cannot point to it and tell me how you know it is so or how I can know it is so.


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Offline jaimehlers

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I know that is what atheism is. Morality is not found in atheism. It's just how you personally feel at the moment.

the only thing an atheist can say to Kim Jong is, "To each his own."
You seem to have gotten 'atheist' conflated with 'anarchist'.  I think you'll find that if you use the correct word, those sentences will make much more sense to other people.

Offline median

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This all too common comment from Christians stems from their absurd and irrational belief that "Without God life has no meaning". That mindset says, "If Jesus didn't rise, then it's all pointless and I can just steal, kill, and rape with no consequence!" But this is just an emotional backlash from pondering what they think non-belief would be like (and it's based in fear of the unknown). On the contrary though, things do not play out this way in the real world. Overwhelmingly, when Christians lose their faith (in trade for sound reason) they often become more beneficial to society, AND they become happier and more productive (choosing instead to deal with the here and now of well being instead of some pie in the sky).

In short, this Christian plea is a complete LIE.

It shows me that atheists are borrowing their morals from Christianity. It's almost as if when certain people become atheists, they act more Christ-like. Very ironic.

But then again, the Lord certainly doth work in mysterious ways.

LOL. Look at your confirmation bias which is so clear here. Any evidence or sound reason against your view and you repackage it and twist it (rationalize it) to fit your previously made assumptions. It's more dishonesty.

No, it doesn't "show" you that. YOU ASSUME IT! The "borrowing" is all yours dude and you just don't realize it. Both Christianity and Judaism took their moral codes from other cultures that came before them. Human moral actions and concepts came long before religion. They are not derived from it and for you to attempt to assert (ad hoc) this accusation mantra (which you likely stole from some apologetics website) is just another one of your empty assertions. Merely repackaging and restating your assumption isn't going to get you anywhere. All you are demonstrating is a vapid tautology. "I believe this b/c I believe it. I know it b/c I know it."

No, you don't know it. YOU ASSUME.
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Offline Star Stuff

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One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion.  (Arthur C. Clarke)
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Offline median

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That's precisely the point, atheism is a position on ONE thing: The existence of deities.
Once again you've unwittingly proven our point.

I know that is what atheism is. Morality is not found in atheism. It's just how you personally feel at the moment.

the only thing an atheist can say to Kim Jong is, "To each his own."

Morality is not found in marbles, mathematics, or non-belief in monsters either. So your response is meaningless and carries no weight. What you are trying to do (once again) is merely restate your assumption with a built in hidden premise (that atheists can't have morality). But that belief comes from another one of your assumptions you made (that your definition of morality is the correct one). Yet that is a belief that you have not justified or supported.

The question of morality is off-topic to this OP. I've created a thread for the discussion of religious vs secular morality. Please go here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25767.msg581448.html#msg581448
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Online nogodsforme

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He never responded to the fact that people in atheist Japan behave at least as morally as people anywhere else, and without any Christianity. No Abrahamic religion whatsoever. With no fear of god, or god's laws to control people, there would have to be the highest rates of rape, murder and robbery in the world, right?

Yet, we find overall, a very polite, organized and well-run society.  Not perfect, but far lower crime rates and better living standards than most countries with Christian influences. How come people in Japan don't just do whatever they want, to anyone they want? Why aren't tourists and business people terrified to go there? You could substitute many other countries where most of the people choose not to practice any organized religion. Iceland, Sweden, Denmark. All pretty nice places.

Still no comment.  :P
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Offline Star Stuff

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He never responded to the fact that people in atheist Japan behave at least as morally as people anywhere else, and without any Christianity. No Abrahamic religion whatsoever. With no fear of god, or god's laws to control people, there would have to be the highest rates of rape, murder and robbery in the world, right?

Yet, we find overall, a very polite, organized and well-run society.  Not perfect, but far lower crime rates and better living standards than most countries with Christian influences. How come people in Japan don't just do whatever they want, to anyone they want? Why aren't tourists and business people terrified to go there? You could substitute many other countries where most of the people choose not to practice any organized religion. Iceland, Sweden, Denmark. All pretty nice places.

Still no comment.  :P

It's called intellectual dishonesty.
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Offline median

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He never responded to the fact that people in atheist Japan behave at least as morally as people anywhere else, and without any Christianity. No Abrahamic religion whatsoever. With no fear of god, or god's laws to control people, there would have to be the highest rates of rape, murder and robbery in the world, right?

Yet, we find overall, a very polite, organized and well-run society.  Not perfect, but far lower crime rates and better living standards than most countries with Christian influences. How come people in Japan don't just do whatever they want, to anyone they want? Why aren't tourists and business people terrified to go there? You could substitute many other countries where most of the people choose not to practice any organized religion. Iceland, Sweden, Denmark. All pretty nice places.

Still no comment.  :P

The typical Christian apologist response is always something like, "They know God but don't worship God as God. They act morality b/c it was put in them by God. Romans ch. 1 says so!" Of course, they ignore that it is in fact true that in every culture people DO do whatever they want. And what people want to do (in general) is get along and strive for a better life in their surroundings. Those who don't tend to wind up dead or incarcerated. Either way, people are still doing what they want. Religion really has no stake in the game b/c it's fiction.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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He never responded to the fact that people in atheist Japan behave at least as morally as people anywhere else, and without any Christianity. No Abrahamic religion whatsoever. With no fear of god, or god's laws to control people, there would have to be the highest rates of rape, murder and robbery in the world, right?

Yet, we find overall, a very polite, organized and well-run society.  Not perfect, but far lower crime rates and better living standards than most countries with Christian influences. How come people in Japan don't just do whatever they want, to anyone they want? Why aren't tourists and business people terrified to go there? You could substitute many other countries where most of the people choose not to practice any organized religion. Iceland, Sweden, Denmark. All pretty nice places.

Still no comment.  :P

Nogods, I'd love to see you (or any of a number of people here) have a one-on-one debate with Skeptic where he would have to actually give a decently thought out response to one question at a time before moving on. With so much getting thrown at him from every angle, there's just too much scope for dodging the difficult questions.

Don't know whether anyone would be up for it, or whether Skeptic would agree, but it might make for a more structured, easier to follow conversation.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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He never responded to the fact that people in atheist Japan behave at least as morally as people anywhere else, and without any Christianity. No Abrahamic religion whatsoever. With no fear of god, or god's laws to control people, there would have to be the highest rates of rape, murder and robbery in the world, right?

Yet, we find overall, a very polite, organized and well-run society.  Not perfect, but far lower crime rates and better living standards than most countries with Christian influences. How come people in Japan don't just do whatever they want, to anyone they want? Why aren't tourists and business people terrified to go there? You could substitute many other countries where most of the people choose not to practice any organized religion. Iceland, Sweden, Denmark. All pretty nice places.

Still no comment.  :P

Nogods, I'd love to see you (or any of a number of people here) have a one-on-one debate with Skeptic where he would have to actually give a decently thought out response to one question at a time before moving on. With so much getting thrown at him from every angle, there's just too much scope for dodging the difficult questions.

Don't know whether anyone would be up for it, or whether Skeptic would agree, but it might make for a more structured, easier to follow conversation.

I tried a debate with him on one of the threads. When he was cornered he just became irrational and made unconnected statements. A logical argument cannot be made with someone who does not use logic.
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Offline Star Stuff

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A logical argument cannot be made with someone who does not use logic.

And you can't reason someone out of something that they weren't reasoned into in the first place.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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I tried a debate with him on one of the threads. When he was cornered he just became irrational and made unconnected statements. A logical argument cannot be made with someone who does not use logic.

OK...I guess I missed that somewhere in the shuffle. Too bad it didn't work out.

Reading all the threads that he has hijacked lately is getting really frustrating, though. I can't look away because I keep hoping someone will say something which he will have to concede a point on, but instead he either veers off on another tangent or keeps reiterating, as you say, unconnected statements which do nothing to further the conversation.

I know his mind cannot be changed, but there's always the hope that he will actually address some points in a coherent manner if he has some limits imposed, even if it's only in one specific thread.

Offline DrPancake

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God makes the rules/God doesn't have to explain himself to you.

"I can make people suffer all I want and I don't have to explain or justify dick because I'm God.

You better love and obey me though. OR ELSE."
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 02:39:40 PM by DrPancake »

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Jt

Have a look at my thread called proof of the demon of skeptic666 where I have gathered the evidence in one place.

He has avoided dealing with this properly. He started talking about SPAG which I discarded long ago.

Also he is struggling with his admission that he is lawless. He has tried to escape by saying he would not behave badly. This is a logical contradiction since he has already said he would not know what "badly" meant if he was an atheist. On the other hand, he is already behaving badly by any standards. It should be interesting to see his next avoidance.
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Offline median

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God makes the rules/God doesn't have to explain himself to you.

"I can make people suffer all I want and I don't have to explain or justify dick because I'm God.

You better love and obey me though. OR ELSE."

DrPancake, Welcome to WWGHA Forum. In short response, I would conditionally agree that IF a God exists, and IF he/she/it is more powerful than us, and IF he is the type of God that acts like a dictator, THEN he/she/it doesn't have to explain anything. The problem is, it hasn't been demonstrated that such a deity exists. Depending upon where you are coming from here you may agree.

Happy chatting!
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Offline Azdgari

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God makes the rules/God doesn't have to explain himself to you.

"I can make people suffer all I want and I don't have to explain or justify dick because I'm God.

You better love and obey me though. OR ELSE."

DrP, welcome to the forum.  Are you stating the above in earnest, or are you mocking a religious position?  It is not clear from your post.
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Offline DrPancake

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Thanks for the welcome!

I got that response by questioning "God's divine plan". Particularly why a loving and caring God would be content to have the majority of humanity in Hell because they didn't believe the right story/get baptized/jump through the right hoops.

But then I'm a lowly sinner human so I guess the explanations wouldn't satisfy anyway.

Quote
DrP, welcome to the forum.  Are you stating the above in earnest, or are you mocking a religious position?  It is not clear from your post.

The quoted part was a sarcastic rendition of how that particular reason makes God sound to me.

Sorry for not being clear.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:50:03 PM by DrPancake »

Offline Betelnut

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God makes the rules/God doesn't have to explain himself to you.

"I can make people suffer all I want and I don't have to explain or justify dick because I'm God.

You better love and obey me though. OR ELSE."

DrP, welcome to the forum.  Are you stating the above in earnest, or are you mocking a religious position?  It is not clear from your post.

I think DrP is actually answering the question in the title of the thread.  That is, a list of excuses.