Author Topic: What's the worst excuse Christians gave when they can't explain what you asked?  (Read 3688 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2733
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
No. Goodness is simply God's nature. He does not arbitrarily decide.

So how do we  objectively determine that?

And no, quoting the bible doesn't count, since the accounts in there would need to be verified as well.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2379
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
No. Goodness is simply God's nature. He does not arbitrarily decide.

So how do we  objectively determine that?

And no, quoting the bible doesn't count, since the accounts in there would need to be verified as well.

The same way we objectively verify that a circle is round.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline RubyLeo

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
  • Darwins +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member

No. Goodness is simply God's nature. He does not arbitrarily decide.

You mean THIS kind of "goodness?"

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

King James Version (KJV)
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.


If that's the nature of God - he is not "good" by ANY definition.  He's sick, twisted, wicked, and pure EVIL.
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2379
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched

No. Goodness is simply God's nature. He does not arbitrarily decide.

You mean THIS kind of "goodness?"

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

King James Version (KJV)
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.


If that's the nature of God - he is not "good" by ANY definition.  He's sick, twisted, wicked, and pure EVIL.

What is your basis for judging God that way?
Your own personal feelings?

I'm sorry but that is not objective.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2733
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
What is your basis for judging God that way?
Your own personal feelings?

I'm sorry but that is not objective.

What is your basis for judging God to be good?
Your own personal feelings?

I'm sorry but that is not objective.


Saying "god is like a circle" is not an answer.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline RubyLeo

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
  • Darwins +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member

No. Goodness is simply God's nature. He does not arbitrarily decide.

You mean THIS kind of "goodness?"

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

King James Version (KJV)
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.


If that's the nature of God - he is not "good" by ANY definition.  He's sick, twisted, wicked, and pure EVIL.

What is your basis for judging God that way?
Your own personal feelings?

I'm sorry but that is not objective.

My basis is your bible. Jesus' (aka God) teachings and such.  So you are right, it's not objective.
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
What is the relevance of Jung being good or bad? Do you hate atheists so much that just saying they are all bad makes you feel better about your god?

There are good/bad people no matter what they believe in or not believe in.

Kim Jung-Il is a Communist before he's an atheist. They are not mutually exclusive.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2379
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
What is the relevance of Jung being good or bad? Do you hate atheists so much that just saying they are all bad makes you feel better about your god?

There are good/bad people no matter what they believe in or not believe in.

Kim Jung-Il is a Communist before he's an atheist. They are not mutually exclusive.

-Nam

Please define good and bad without resorting to your personal feelings.

Remember, Kim Jong thinks he's a good man. You probably disagree. Now explain to an outsider how to determine who is good.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1152
  • Darwins +80/-11
  • Gods become obsolete all the time.
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
No. Goodness is simply God's nature. He does not arbitrarily decide.

So how do we  objectively determine that?

And no, quoting the bible doesn't count, since the accounts in there would need to be verified as well.

The same way we objectively verify that a circle is round.

You already said that you do not agree with this god. Your demon does not understand if circles are round or not.

Just because I believe in God and I explain the things God does, this does not mean I would do everything the way God does it if God gave me power to be God.


Shep finally agrees that his demon is not the same as the Yahweh of the bible.



You said your demon likes to give people cancer, only if they can handle it of course.

You know your demon is not god. You have admitted how different your demon is from god.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 01:15:00 PM by Foxy Freedom »
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
What is the relevance of Jung being good or bad? Do you hate atheists so much that just saying they are all bad makes you feel better about your god?

There are good/bad people no matter what they believe in or not believe in.

Kim Jung-Il is a Communist before he's an atheist. They are not mutually exclusive.

-Nam

Please define good and bad without resorting to your personal feelings.

Remember, Kim Jong thinks he's a good man. You probably disagree. Now explain to an outsider how to determine who is good.

This is your problem: you don't listen to what anyone says. Who cares what he thinks of himself.

No one can explain anything to you because you read what you want, think what you want and must be the driest sponge in existence.

You're an idiot. Does that make you a good person? Do you think you are a good person? How do you define that for yourself?

You see how my questions are irrelevant? That's your questions: irrelevant.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1846
  • Darwins +320/-6
  • Ex-rosary squad
Please define good and bad without resorting to your personal feelings.

Remember, god thinks he's a good sentient entity, and has told you such. Now explain to an outsider how to determine who is good.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Graybeard

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
  • Darwins +460/-15
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
I wouldn't have joined in except that North Korea bears a remarkable resemblance to a Christian state:

North Korea sees itself surrounded by enemies -> So did the Children of Israel.
North Korea suffers untreated famine and disease -> God sent famine and disease
North Korea wants to wipe out the south and the US -> God wanted to wipe out the Moabites, the Amalelites, the Jesubites, etc.
The Leader of North Korea has died but "lives on" -> Jesus died but "lives on"
The Leader of North Korea sent his son to continue his work -> so did God.
North Korea has no free elections -> Neither does God.
In North Korea you advance by utter and complete obedience -> In Christianity you advance by utter and complete obedience
In North Korea, people who rebel are executed or sent to prison camps -> There are no "prison camps in Christianity: God just kills you and burns your soul.
In North Korea you are required to believe that the leader (and his offspring) are infallible -> In Christianity you are required to believe that God (and his offspring) are infallible.
In North Korea, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly -> In the Bible, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly.
In North Korea, if you accept the Leader then life will be good -> In the Bible, if you accept The Trinity, then life will be good.
North Korea thinks that only they have the answer to life -> Christianity thinks that only it has the answer to life.

Can anyone think of any other parallels?

Jong is atheist. He doesn't care about his people or anyone else.
I see you didn't say that Jong is wrong anywhere in that post though. So I assume you think he's a good man?

He seems to be just as good as God, doesn't he? My opinion of God and Kim are the same.

I suppose you support Kim - after all, apart from not believing in God, he is a better Christian than you, isn't he? He is living the biblical dream. A state where all are slaves to the one true leader/God.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 04:33:25 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline jynnan tonnix

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1725
  • Darwins +81/-1
  • Gender: Female


Please define good and bad without resorting to your personal feelings.

Remember, Kim Jong thinks he's a good man. You probably disagree. Now explain to an outsider how to determine who is good.

It is entirely possible that he totally recognizes the fact that there are far more moral ways to live a life, but simply doesn't care because he feels entitled. Yes, his behavior is unfortunately played out on a grand scale, but I would hazard a guess that a garden variety asshole also recognizes his failings yet carries on with his normal behavior because it makes him feel good, important, powerful, whatever.

Which could apply just as well to god.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Skep,

This is your problem: you don't read what people write. This is what I wrote:

Quote
If the people of North Korea believe Kim Jung is a god, how can it be atheist?

Read what people actually write and not take things out of context to suit your viewpoint.

-Nam

That is irrelevant to the main point of subjective morality.
OK fine, the people think he's a god. This has nothing to do with subjective morality.
WF does THIS have to do with the topic under discussion? Look at that, you came along and changed the subject again because you can't address what's actually under discussion. Your tactics are childish and transparent.

Are you talking to both of us because I did respond to him, so did someone else?

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1602
  • Darwins +174/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
No Nam, mostly I was expressing my frustration with skeptic's refusal to answer questions, and his habit of dragging everything off topic when he can't address a point. Apologies if my ire wasn't clearly directed.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Skeptic in a nutshell.

"God is good, atheists are immoral, north Korea is atheistville."

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Lectus

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
  • Darwins +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The messiah of mental freedom
Just had this argument with a Christian:

Christian: Pray to God and he'll help you.
ME: I don't believe in God.
Christian: I don't know what you believe. Pray to your creator.
ME: I don't think I was created.
Christian: Then how do you explain the origin of life?
ME: I don't know. I can't know. I don't have to know. I just life without worrying about it.

What's with theists need to know the absolute truth?
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline Star Stuff

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5732
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Carbon-based life form.
Just had this argument with a Christian:

Christian: Pray to God and he'll help you.
ME: I don't believe in God.
Christian: I don't know what you believe. Pray to your creator.
ME: I don't think I was created.
Christian: Then how do you explain the origin of life?
ME: I don't know. I can't know. I don't have to know. I just life without worrying about it.

What's with theists need to know the absolute truth?

What I would have said:

Christian:  Then how do you explain the origin of life?
ME:  Biochemistry.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6203
  • Darwins +782/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Why do Christians love to being up North Korea as their example of a country where people are atheists (or at least not Christians)? All that shows is that North Korea is an authoritarian dictatorship controlled by a dangerous maniac who is starving the population and stockpiling all kinds of horrible weapons.

It should not matter what the maniac's personal beliefs are-- his actions are bad, bad, bad. An atheist cool groovy dude is cool and groovy. An atheist evil maniac is an evil maniac first and foremost. North Korea would still be a hellhole if the evil maniac was a Christian.

Or would that make it alright? I guess by some people's standards, it would be just fine. You know, the Christian dictator does not have to abide by his own laws, and so forth.

How about Denmark, Iceland, Japan, Sweden? Democratic, peaceful, prosperous countries where people are not Christians (not Judeo-Abrahamic-monotheistic at all) and somehow are not starving, not being put into concentration camps and not killing each other willy-nilly. They have good educational systems, good health care and low crime rates. What does that tell us? It tells us that  if North Korea was run by atheist cool groovy people, it would be Denmark.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2379
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Why do Christians love to being up North Korea as their example of a country where people are atheists (or at least not Christians)? All that shows is that North Korea is an authoritarian dictatorship controlled by a dangerous maniac who is starving the population and stockpiling all kinds of horrible weapons.

By what standard is he a dangerous maniac? Who says that starving people is bad? It seems you think human life is valuable or special, but this would be a Christian viewpoint. You are borrowing your views on life from theism.

In an atheistic universe, no species has intrinsic value. Look at how we kill cockroaches without a second thought. Why are humans so special in an atheistic world? Who says they are special and cockroaches are not?

There is no objective standard.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2379
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Skeptic in a nutshell.

"God is good, atheists are immoral, north Korea is atheistville."



No the point is that you want to be nice and helpful, then do it.

but you have no basis to judge Kim Jong. He just has a different opinion of what's good than you do. Jong would probably say that you are evil for all we know.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 460
  • Darwins +18/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • >.>
but you have no basis to judge Kim Jong. He just has a different opinion of what's good than you do. Jong would probably say that you are evil for all we know.
That's precisely the point, atheism is a position on ONE thing: The existence of deities.
Once again you've unwittingly proven our point.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2379
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
That's precisely the point, atheism is a position on ONE thing: The existence of deities.
Once again you've unwittingly proven our point.

I know that is what atheism is. Morality is not found in atheism. It's just how you personally feel at the moment.

the only thing an atheist can say to Kim Jong is, "To each his own."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 460
  • Darwins +18/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • >.>
That's precisely the point, atheism is a position on ONE thing: The existence of deities.
Once again you've unwittingly proven our point.

I know that is what atheism is. Morality is not found in atheism. It's just how you personally feel at the moment.
No one ever claimed that atheism had a morality system, you're conflating a position with a world view.
Most atheists supplement atheism with Secular Humanism, which IS a world view and HAS a morality system.

Quote
the only thing an atheist can say to Kim Jong is, "To each his own."
No, you're wrong, we can say much more than that, since most atheists are also Secular Humanists we have the ability to criticize his behavior as being completely amoral and, pardon the phrase, evil.

EDIT:
We also don't denounce a fellow atheist simply because they don't believe what we do, or behave the way we behave, we criticize them and let them know we're not pleased, but we don't redefine atheism simply because we don't agree.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 12:03:54 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2379
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
No, you're wrong, we can say much more than that, since most atheists are also Secular Humanists we have the ability to criticize his behavior as being completely amoral and, pardon the phrase, evil.

But once again, you are assuming Secular Humanism is objectively a good thing. This has not been established.

What if someone thinks secular humanism is stupid?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12210
  • Darwins +267/-31
  • Gender: Male
By what standard is he a dangerous maniac?

Well, see, when a maniac is in control of a small nation, and while oppressing his people actively seeks the ability to launch nuclear weapons at his neighbours, that makes the maniac a danger to those around him.

This isn't even a moral statement.  It's a statement of physical fact:  Those near North Korea are physically endangered by a maniac.

So why did you even ask?

Who says that starving people is bad? It seems you think human life is valuable or special, but this would be a Christian viewpoint. You are borrowing your views on life from theism.

No, Christianity is borrowing them from the rest of humantiy.  It then goes on to denigrate human life as evil, worthless, and wretched.  Starving people is no big deal when you believe humans to be fundamentally evil and deserving of far worse torture in Hell.

In an atheistic universe, no species has intrinsic value. Look at how we kill cockroaches without a second thought. Why are humans so special in an atheistic world? Who says they are special and cockroaches are not?

There is no objective standard.

There isn't one in a theistic universe, either.  Just might-makes-right.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Antidote

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 460
  • Darwins +18/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • >.>
No, you're wrong, we can say much more than that, since most atheists are also Secular Humanists we have the ability to criticize his behavior as being completely amoral and, pardon the phrase, evil.

But once again, you are assuming Secular Humanism is objectively a good thing. This has not been established.

What if someone thinks secular humanism is stupid?
You're assuming that there is an objective morality, which I don't believe exists.
If someone thinks it's stupid that's their prerogative, but it's been shown to work countless times, while the morality of the biblegod is rather corrupt.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12210
  • Darwins +267/-31
  • Gender: Male
Skeptic, how did you get the authority to judge your "God" to be "Good"?  Pretty big of you...
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Antidote

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 460
  • Darwins +18/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • >.>
"I'll pray for you"

Good grief I hate that >.>
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.