Author Topic: I Admire The Atheist  (Read 4127 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #116 on: November 03, 2013, 02:11:15 PM »
I said I can't do that. God is invisible. God has proven Himself to me. I can't force God to give you the same proof He gave me.
I find this bizarre.

If god hadn't proven himself to you, would you accept the claim that he exists?

If yes, can you provide some explanation for your basis of acceptance of that claim?

If no, what the hell is the point of all of your ramblings?  Clearly god has no interest in proving himself to some people (like me for instance), and you're running counter to his will.  If he's all-powerful and all-knowing, and he doesn't want me to know he exists, then you can wax and wane all day long and he'll use his all-powerful-ness to make sure I don't listen, because he doesn't want me knowing about him.  If he's all-powerful and all-knowing and wants me to know he exists, then he can simply provide me with the same (or similar) proof that he provided you with.  In any case, your declarations of his existence to me (or anyone else god apparently has no interest in revealing himself to) is pointless, and you're potentially in conflict with god.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2013, 02:24:01 PM »
I can only take that to mean that you think they do exist.

Atheists have told me that just because they don't think God is real, this does not mean they agree that God does not exist.
I agree with you. Many atheists are unwilling to say that there are no gods of any sort, given the fact that the universe is so large and we know little about the fine detail of every part of it. However, Christians and other godbotherers would immediately assume that this mean that this means that atheists actually accept there might be some gods about the place.

In fact this is, for them, a vanishingly small possibility: the same possibility that there are leprechauns.

The point they make is that you are quite happy to believe in one god from the 5,000+ gods that are known to have been worshipped: gods, whose proof of existence is the same as the proof for the existence of leprechauns.

Now, the logic goes like this: you are convinced, upon the information, evidence and proof that you think you have about leprechauns and gods, that of all of the possible gods only one is the only true god and that is the Judeo-Christian one, the one based upon Baal-Haddad of the Canaanites and that particular god (one in five thousand) is described in a book called the Bible.

However, you do not believe in any other gods (although the Bible is clear that there are other gods) and you reject the idea of fairies, elves and goblins as well as leprechauns.

Yet the strange thing is, you cannot say why you disbelieve in leprechauns yet believe in some imaginary god.

I hope this helps you understand what has been said to you, although, based upon your previous posts, I suspect it is something that you will ignore as it does not fit in with your mind-set.

We are asking you to use your critical thinking skills and behave like an intelligent human being.

And in case you are wondering, No, there are no gods, there never have been and never will be. However, the argument that I would put forward to support this would be apparently beyond your ability to read or understand.

If I come off as being arrogant or unsympathetic, well, that's too bad - I have limited space, time and patience.

You really need to be taught to use your mind.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Aaron123

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2013, 02:37:40 PM »
By this point, it's very clear that skeptic54768 is avoiding the following question:

Quote
How do you "empirically" prove the non-existence of something? 


Despite that this was posted several times in big letters, he continued to ignore it over and over.  What we have here is a textbook case of the theist's favorite dance: the dodge and evade.  He asks a question that's designed to confound us, then when asked how his idea operates, he never answers the question.  Instead, he avoids it at all cost.  Finding ways to dodge and evade, then finally, outright ignoring it when all means of evasions are cut off.  When asking about the "empirical" evidence for the non-existence of god, he was just being full of it.  He never had any idea of what "empirical evidence for the non-existence of something" would look like.  I am 100% positive of this.  Thank you very much for confirming this.

skeptic54768, if you're reading this, this is your chance to prove me wrong.  All you have to do is finally respond to that nagging question: How do you "empirically" prove the non-existence of something?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline median

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2013, 02:59:14 PM »
Bottom line, if there were any god or gods, there would be no atheists.
if there was no God, there would be no theists.

Round and round on the merry go round we go.
Typical dodge from the one who believes in that which has never been shown to be real.  OTOH, this is really good stuff for those truly searching for truth, as opposed to those who insist they already have it. 
Care to show any evidence for your god?  Bring the truth of your beliefs under the microscope of observable evidence, we are adults, we can handle it.

I said I can't do that. God is invisible. God has proven Himself to me. I can't force God to give you the same proof He gave me.

Unicorns are invisible too. And anyone can CLAIM that anything has supposedly "been proven" to them. But just b/c you happened to become convinced of something (perhaps you convinced yourself) doesn't mean what you believe is actually real. You are practicing confirmation bias - pretending a 'God proved himself' to you, when you have no way of confirming that. It's mere arbitrary assertion and conjecture.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Antidote

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2013, 03:01:42 PM »
I believe that Nessy is the one true god, prove me wrong, skeptic.







See why that approach doesn't work on us?
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline screwtape

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2013, 09:54:21 PM »
Once again, if you claim that God does not exist, that is a positive statement. One needs to prove this.

It is as if you did not even read my post and just said whatever was on your mind.  The two had nothing to do with each other.  Why did you even bother to quote me? 



How did you refute it?

sounds like you guys just say "Nu-uh!"

What is your reaction when people claim leprechauns are real?  Need you be any more detailed than "nuh-uh"?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2013, 10:58:51 PM »
Can you point to a Nihilist atheist who says kill everyone,who cares?. That is a bold statement to make about anybody.

Nihilism says that everything is meaningless and there is no such thing as morality.

Therefore, killing someone is the same thing as watching tv with someone.
The answer you gave has nothing to do with the question
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2013, 11:01:10 PM »
Yeah-huh!

Lucky Charms, hello?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2013, 11:13:43 PM »
Bottom line, if there were any god or gods, there would be no atheists.

if there was no God, there would be no theists.

Round and round on the merry go round we go.
How do you explain other faith and religious systems,they exist in spite of the fact you believe something different. The people of those other faiths have the same facts as you do about your god,the same convictions as you,nothing you could say would change the views they have
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #125 on: November 03, 2013, 11:18:15 PM »
I said I can't do that. God is invisible. God has proven Himself to me. I can't force God to give you the same proof He gave me.
I find this bizarre.

If god hadn't proven himself to you, would you accept the claim that he exists?

If yes, can you provide some explanation for your basis of acceptance of that claim?

If no, what the hell is the point of all of your ramblings?  Clearly god has no interest in proving himself to some people (like me for instance), and you're running counter to his will.  If he's all-powerful and all-knowing, and he doesn't want me to know he exists, then you can wax and wane all day long and he'll use his all-powerful-ness to make sure I don't listen, because he doesn't want me knowing about him.  If he's all-powerful and all-knowing and wants me to know he exists, then he can simply provide me with the same (or similar) proof that he provided you with.  In any case, your declarations of his existence to me (or anyone else god apparently has no interest in revealing himself to) is pointless, and you're potentially in conflict with god.
Skep learned about a dog he prayed for being healed ,by miracle,now he believes. He has not provided proof the dog or the god exist,he is here to convert you from your heathen ways.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #126 on: November 04, 2013, 12:58:43 AM »
Demons! They're demons! Don't you understand they...ARE...D E M O N S !

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #127 on: November 04, 2013, 01:11:03 AM »
You really need to be taught to use your mind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it your position that critical thinking is something that needs to be indoctrinated into people's minds and not something they can realize on their own?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #128 on: November 04, 2013, 01:14:12 AM »
You really need to be taught to use your mind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it your position that critical thinking is something that needs to be indoctrinated into people's minds and not something they can realize on their own?

Apparently not for you. You desperately need such indoctrination.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #129 on: November 04, 2013, 01:22:05 AM »
Apparently not for you. You desperately need such indoctrination.

-Nam

I am overwhelmed by the irony.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline MM747

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #130 on: November 04, 2013, 01:37:25 AM »
Apparently not for you. You desperately need such indoctrination.

-Nam

I am overwhelmed by the irony.

It is as ironic as the need for a Christian requiring guidance to properly interpret the perfect word of biblegod.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.
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Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #131 on: November 04, 2013, 02:02:49 AM »
Apparently not for you. You desperately need such indoctrination.

-Nam

I am overwhelmed by the irony.

I was being slightly facetious.

You want to be an idiot--no business of mine.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #132 on: November 04, 2013, 02:16:06 AM »
I believe that Nessy is the one true god, prove me wrong, skeptic.







See why that approach doesn't work on us?

Easy, the flying spaghetti monster has far larger (meat) balls, therefore it is far more manly, and thus the real god.

The FSM bible says so.

*/satire*
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #133 on: November 04, 2013, 06:02:41 AM »
Atheism merely adopts the null hypothesis. No-one goes around believing in the existence of everything until it's shown to not exist - that would just be silly, as it leaves you open to countless contradictions.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #134 on: November 04, 2013, 06:14:43 AM »
/\
We got a winner!!!

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #135 on: November 04, 2013, 06:16:06 AM »
You really need to be taught to use your mind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it your position that critical thinking is something that needs to be indoctrinated into people's minds and not something they can realize on their own?

I wouldn't use the term "indoctrinated", but other than that, yes, critical thinking is something that needs to be learned.  It isn't something that people can learn on their own.  At least, not very many people.  When I look back on my own education just in deductive logic, for example, I can see a few things that I figured out by myself, but use about everything else came from either going to college or independent study of other source materials afterward.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #136 on: November 04, 2013, 06:17:35 AM »
Bump.  Skeptic, I will ask you one more time to answer my question before I smite you for dodging.

Skeptic, you haven't responded to this.  Do you now understand the distinction between atheism and agnosticism?  I'd appreciate a direct response… thank you.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.

So it is a mere belief that god does not exist since you don't know for certain? You can't state objectively that God does not exist just because you have personally not received proof.

Please just answer the question.  Do you now understand what the difference is between atheism and agnosticism?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Graybeard

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #137 on: November 04, 2013, 12:43:24 PM »
You really need to be taught to use your mind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it your position that critical thinking is something that needs to be indoctrinated into people's minds and not something they can realize on their own?

It is difficult to learn it on your own, although some people manage. Usually, the method is to have a schoolteacher teach you how to approach problems properly so as to arrive a sensible conclusion. This is critical thinking.

One of the first things is, "Solutions involving magic are not solutions."

Another is avoiding the "Black box": In this experiment, children aged about 6 are asked to draw a factory that produces sausages. The less bright ones have pigs going into a black box (the factory) and sausages coming out the other side. The really bright kids don't have a black box, they have gory details on the inside of the box that is the factory.

Reading a "Philosophy for Dummies" type-book helps - it shows what critical thinking has been done by others and why they are right, wrong, or it is debatable. This saves you from inventing ideas and methods that were invented 2000 years ago.

You need to question everything that is important to you: You know how kids keep asking "Why?" after each answer? That's a good start. "How" is a good question too.

There's not enough room here to really explain in full.

I think I am asking you to continue thinking at the place where you normally stop thinking.

I hope this helps






Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline median

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #138 on: November 04, 2013, 01:09:59 PM »

I wouldn't use the term "indoctrinated", but other than that, yes, critical thinking is something that needs to be learned.  It isn't something that people can learn on their own.  At least, not very many people.  When I look back on my own education just in deductive logic, for example, I can see a few things that I figured out by myself, but use about everything else came from either going to college or independent study of other source materials afterward.

Just like mathematics, automobile repair, and rocket propulsion, many things have to be learned. This is why we have something called SCHOOL. Great minds throughout history have discovered true things about our universe - things which are demonstrable, testable, repeatable, and learn-able. Can you learn how to build a rocket ship and fly to the moon on your own, without any help from outside of you? It's obviously NO. The point is, whether or not a specific phenomena must be learned (with help from others) has absolutely no bearing on that principles validity or soundness.

Septic, you're not gaining any ground by trying to undercut reason and logical discourse, as you will be cutting yourself just the same.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 01:17:08 PM by median »
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Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #139 on: November 04, 2013, 04:32:41 PM »
I disagree with all of you. You think I got to my level of "critical thinking" based on someone else teaching. People are generally afraid of me. Why? I have no idea.

 And some school systems not only not care about the students, they don't care about the teachers either. So, the teachers, feeling unloved, reflect that on them, who reflect that on their students. That's the school system I went. It was a "fly by" system. Didn't matter what class you took, you passed. In 8th grade I skipped almost 3'months of school. Guess what? That's right! I passed. I knew a student who only went the first and last day of school, and passed. The system I went through didn't have the money to properly provide students with updated books, or the items necessary to teach anything passed anything.

You know what summer school was like? If you walk around the track once, each day, and you listened and learned about the city you live in, you got an "A". They didn't teach you what you apparently failed.

So, if ever seems like I am bragging about not having a High School Diploma, it's because I am. Who would brag about a certificate of completion from a school system who had the inability to teach, or cared? I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I did attempt to get my GED, twice. Which was statewide rather than the local system I went through. But I failed the math the first time by 5 points, and then they made the math even harder, and no one needs to hear how much I didn't make it by at that point.

But an teachers never educated me, I educated myself. Like Mark Twain once said, "Don't let schooling get in the way of your education."

Everything anyone needs to know today are all in books, essays, and online. People actually don't need school to learn everything. If I wanted to learn how to build rockets then what I would need is the drive to do it. That's it.

Society, however, requires a piece of paper that says you're qualified to do something, and I am fine with that from a point-of-view of safety and common sense but one doesn't need school to learn. One doesn't need someone teaching them to be critical thinkers.

That's just bullshit.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jag

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #140 on: November 04, 2013, 04:52:08 PM »
Lots of people do need help from an outside source to start down the critical thinking path, and the earlier the better. It doesn't have to be a school however. It's just an easy and obvious place to reasonably expect it. Absent a school environment to help, there are countless books and electronic resources that can do the same thing.

The most crucial component is being willing to learn to do it. How you get there is up to you.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #141 on: November 04, 2013, 05:03:18 PM »
I disagree with all of you. You think I got to my level of "critical thinking" based on someone else teaching.

 And some school systems not only not care about the students, they don't care about the teachers either. So, the teachers, feeling unloved, reflect that on them, who reflect that on their students. That's the school system I went. It was a "fly by" system. Didn't matter what class you took, you passed. In 8th grade I skipped almost 3'months of school. Guess what? That's right! I passed. I knew a student who only went the first and last day of school, and passed. The system I went through didn't have the money to properly provide students with updated books, or the items necessary to teach anything passed anything.

You know what summer school was like? If you walk around the track once, each day, and you listened and learned about the city you live in, you got an "A". They didn't teach you what you apparently failed.

So, if ever seems like I am bragging about not having a High School Diploma, it's because I am. Who would brag about a certificate of completion from a school system who had the inability to teach, or cared? I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I did attempt to get my GED, twice. Which was statewide rather than the local system I went through. But I failed the math the first time by 5 points, and then they made the math even harder, and no one needs to hear how much I didn't make it by at that point.

But an teachers never educated me, I educated myself. Like Mark Twain once said, "Don't let schooling get in the way of your education."

Everything anyone needs to know today are all in books, essays, and online. People actually don't need school to learn everything. If I wanted to learn how to build rockets then what I would need is the drive to do it. That's it.

Society, however, requires a piece of paper that says you're qualified to do something, and I am fine with that from a point-of-view of safety and common sense but one doesn't need school to learn. One doesn't need someone teaching them to be critical thinkers.

That's just bullshit.

-Nam
Those books, essays, and on-line material you allude to...

...those were each written by someone.

You're right, someone didn't hand you that information.  You sought it out.  But don't think for one second that someone else wasn't involved in your learning process.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline median

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #142 on: November 04, 2013, 05:12:28 PM »
I disagree with all of you. You think I got to my level of "critical thinking" based on someone else teaching. People are generally afraid of me. Why? I have no idea.

 And some school systems not only not care about the students, they don't care about the teachers either. So, the teachers, feeling unloved, reflect that on them, who reflect that on their students. That's the school system I went. It was a "fly by" system. Didn't matter what class you took, you passed. In 8th grade I skipped almost 3'months of school. Guess what? That's right! I passed. I knew a student who only went the first and last day of school, and passed. The system I went through didn't have the money to properly provide students with updated books, or the items necessary to teach anything passed anything.

You know what summer school was like? If you walk around the track once, each day, and you listened and learned about the city you live in, you got an "A". They didn't teach you what you apparently failed.

So, if ever seems like I am bragging about not having a High School Diploma, it's because I am. Who would brag about a certificate of completion from a school system who had the inability to teach, or cared? I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I did attempt to get my GED, twice. Which was statewide rather than the local system I went through. But I failed the math the first time by 5 points, and then they made the math even harder, and no one needs to hear how much I didn't make it by at that point.

But an teachers never educated me, I educated myself. Like Mark Twain once said, "Don't let schooling get in the way of your education."

Everything anyone needs to know today are all in books, essays, and online. People actually don't need school to learn everything. If I wanted to learn how to build rockets then what I would need is the drive to do it. That's it.

Society, however, requires a piece of paper that says you're qualified to do something, and I am fine with that from a point-of-view of safety and common sense but one doesn't need school to learn. One doesn't need someone teaching them to be critical thinkers.

That's just bullshit.

-Nam


You still got information from outside of you, and that was my point. Septictank (it seems) wants to discredit any and all information which is derived from the discovery, hard work, knowledge, engineering, or ingenuity of other human-beings (presumably b/c he wants to argue that God gives him all the knowledge he needs - which of course he can't demonstrate and is a patently false statement). I've learned plenty of things without formal school (informal training, self teaching, etc - and I value both formal and informal stuff) but the bottom line is the information came from other human beings (whether by book, by article, by video, or what have you).

So, does it matter that a person learns the laws of logic or math from another human being? Does that make the information any less valuable, reliable, or useful? NOPE!

What he's alluding to is yet another irrational argument. The Genetic Fallacy. Perhaps we should track all of his fallacies and throw a party when he manages to get through trying all of them!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 05:15:22 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #143 on: November 04, 2013, 06:24:51 PM »
Well median I had a super long reply for you and I lost it because i 'm on a phone, that I just got, that crashes a lot. I said some poignant shit to you, and everyone else here like you (the highly educated) but I lost it, and frankly I'm not writing it again.

Basically it was: do you think your approach of teaching people with my educational level (high school or lower) who represent the vast majority of people in the world (religious or not) is working out for you?

Because frankly, you get a BIG FAIL from me.

Speaking to people like us is not speaking to people like you. Of course the first step is the want to learn (by us), the second step is having that drive to learn, and the third step is learning. If people wish to help by teaching them then they shouldn't go your route because those like me (the societal view of the uneducated) are too stupid to understand what you're saying.

A teacher must teach without condescension, a student must learn in spite of it.

-Nam
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 06:27:25 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline median

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #144 on: November 04, 2013, 10:16:47 PM »
Well median I had a super long reply for you and I lost it because i 'm on a phone, that I just got, that crashes a lot. I said some poignant shit to you, and everyone else here like you (the highly educated) but I lost it, and frankly I'm not writing it again.

Basically it was: do you think your approach of teaching people with my educational level (high school or lower) who represent the vast majority of people in the world (religious or not) is working out for you?

Because frankly, you get a BIG FAIL from me.

Speaking to people like us is not speaking to people like you. Of course the first step is the want to learn (by us), the second step is having that drive to learn, and the third step is learning. If people wish to help by teaching them then they shouldn't go your route because those like me (the societal view of the uneducated) are too stupid to understand what you're saying.

A teacher must teach without condescension, a student must learn in spite of it.

-Nam

Actually, I don't get the impression that you are 'stupid' at all Nam and I teach all kinds of people (from all kinds of backgrounds - b/c I enjoy it). I think you're quite bright but my response was directed toward Septic-pants. If a person doesn't have a desire to learn, so be it. But this doesn't sound like the point skep is trying to make. It sounds like he wants to discredit any information that comes from 'other human beings' b/c they are "man-made" and my response was directed toward that statement.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan