Author Topic: I Admire The Atheist  (Read 4161 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2013, 08:26:01 AM »
if you can't empirically prove God doesn't exist, why should I be an atheist?

You've got it backwards.  The atheist bears no burden of proof because he is making no claim to prove.  When it comes to claims about theism, the theist is the only one who has a burden of proof, and if he cannot make his claim, reason resides with the atheist.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline jetson

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #88 on: November 03, 2013, 10:11:59 AM »
if you can't empirically prove God doesn't exist, why should I be an atheist?

You've got it backwards.  The atheist bears no burden of proof because he is making no claim to prove.  When it comes to claims about theism, the theist is the only one who has a burden of proof, and if he cannot make his claim, reason resides with the atheist.

^This.

And I will add...

Most atheists will not close the door on the possibility of a god existing at 100%.  They will leave open the possibility that there may be a god, or gods.  But the atheist is NOT making the claim that gods do not exist, they are responding to the original claim that there is a god, or gods in existence.

I've written this scenario before, but I will do it again.

Long ago, someone made a positive claim regarding the existence of a god.  That is how it started, not the other way around.  Imagine someone claiming the non-existence of something, before that something had even been defined or imagined?  Silly, yes.  So there was never a time before the idea of gods where someone stated there were no gods.  Once the first god claim came into human communication and ideas, the first atheist was born.  The first skeptic, if you will.

There were likely many people who truly doubted the existence of Zeus, despite the very strong evidence in lightning bolts coming from the skies when he was angry.  We now know, of course, that there never was a god throwing lightning bolts in anger.  We know exactly what causes lightning.

The same is true with all gods ever invented so far.  Not one of them has ever been shown to actually exist.  Every single one of them are invisible, and can only be known through the process of that particular religion, or mythology that propped it up in the first place.  And what's even more damaging, especially for YHWH, is that those rituals and processes to "know God", have dramatically changed over the centuries.  Isn't that odd?  How many sects of Christianity are there, and how many ways are there to know god through the rituals of that particular sect?  And how many of them claim to be correct in their approach?  All of them claim to be correct.

I know this was a complete waste of time typing this up for someone as deeply deluded as you appear to be, but I had to do it for those who lurk, and those who are questioning their beliefs right now.  When they read these replies, they will begin to shed the delusions, and find that there is a perfectly fine way to live out our lives, with no need for god beliefs whatsoever.

Offline screwtape

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2013, 10:48:08 AM »
You shouldn't be making concrete statements like that.

Why not?  Certainty is just a feeling, an emotion.  It is like being sad or angry.  Just because you feel certain does not make your belief any more likely to be true.  In fact, psychological studies have shown that people who are more certain about things are more likely to be wrong.  It is called False Confidence. 

Surely you must have some kind of evidence that heaven does not exist? Otherwise, there's a problem with atheism.

What evidence do non-existential things leave?  Suppose you thought I had a dog.  How would I prove I did not?

the parable of my dog:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20148.msg444285.html#msg444285

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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2013, 11:18:34 AM »
You shouldn't be making concrete statements like that.

Why not?  Certainty is just a feeling, an emotion.  It is like being sad or angry.  Just because you feel certain does not make your belief any more likely to be true.  In fact, psychological studies have shown that people who are more certain about things are more likely to be wrong.  It is called False Confidence. 

Surely you must have some kind of evidence that heaven does not exist? Otherwise, there's a problem with atheism.

What evidence do non-existential things leave?  Suppose you thought I had a dog.  How would I prove I did not?

the parable of my dog:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20148.msg444285.html#msg444285

Once again, if you claim that God does not exist, that is a positive statement. One needs to prove this.

if you say "I'm not sure one way or the other" then you are agnostic. Atheism means "no God." It's an outright declaration. Otherwise, there is no point to have agnosticism since they would mean the same exact thing.

I have met many people in my life who have said, "Atheists are just as bad fundamentalist as Christians. It's just as dumb to declare there is no God as it is to state there is a God."
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 11:22:46 AM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jetson

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2013, 11:20:35 AM »

Once again, if you claim that God does not exist, that is a positive statement. One needs to prove this.

if you say "I'm not sure one way or the other" then you are agnostic. Atheism means "no God." It's an outright declaration. Otherwise, there is no point to have agnosticism since they would mean the same exact thing.

I have met many people in my life who have said, "Atheists are just as fundamentalist as Christians. It's just as dumb to declare there is no God as it is to state there is a God."

No, no, and no...you are flat out wrong.  Did you read my post above?  The truth claim is coming from theists, that is the original assertion, still unproven in any meaningful way today.  Atheists are refuting the original claim, not making up a new one.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2013, 11:26:34 AM »

Once again, if you claim that God does not exist, that is a positive statement. One needs to prove this.

if you say "I'm not sure one way or the other" then you are agnostic. Atheism means "no God." It's an outright declaration. Otherwise, there is no point to have agnosticism since they would mean the same exact thing.

I have met many people in my life who have said, "Atheists are just as fundamentalist as Christians. It's just as dumb to declare there is no God as it is to state there is a God."

No, no, and no...you are flat out wrong.  Did you read my post above?  The truth claim is coming from theists, that is the original assertion, still unproven in any meaningful way today.  Atheists are refuting the original claim, not making up a new one.

How did you refute it?

sounds like you guys just say "Nu-uh!"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2013, 11:26:48 AM »
Once again, if you claim that God does not exist, that is a positive statement. One needs to prove this.

Most atheists do not, in fact, make this claim.  If my own admittedly-anecdotal experience in this regard is any indication, I would say that probably no more than ten percent of all atheists, at most, claim that God does not exist.

In other words, you are committing the fallacy of the straw manWiki.  Please stop.

Quote
if you say "I'm not sure one way or the other" then you are agnostic. Atheism means "no God." It's an outright declaration. Otherwise, there is no point to have agnosticism since they would mean the same exact thing.

This is a common misconception.  Atheism and agnosticism are unrelated concepts.  Most atheists are, in fact, agnostics.

Quote
I have met many people in my life who have said, "Atheists are just as fundamentalist as Christians. It's just as dumb to declare there is no God as it is to state there is a God."

Then they don't understand what atheism is.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2013, 11:29:53 AM »
Once again, if you claim that God does not exist, that is a positive statement. One needs to prove this.

Most atheists do not, in fact, make this claim.  If my own admittedly-anecdotal experience in this regard is any indication, I would say that probably no more than ten percent of all atheists, at most, claim that God does not exist.

In other words, you are committing the fallacy of the straw manWiki.  Please stop.

Quote
if you say "I'm not sure one way or the other" then you are agnostic. Atheism means "no God." It's an outright declaration. Otherwise, there is no point to have agnosticism since they would mean the same exact thing.

This is a common misconception.  Atheism and agnosticism are unrelated concepts.  Most atheists are, in fact, agnostics.

Quote
I have met many people in my life who have said, "Atheists are just as fundamentalist as Christians. It's just as dumb to declare there is no God as it is to state there is a God."

Then they don't understand what atheism is.

Please explain the difference between agnostic and atheist then.
An agnostic doesn't claim that god does not exist.
An atheist does claim that.

otherwise, what's the point of having a distinction?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2013, 11:33:53 AM »
Please explain the difference between agnostic and atheist then.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.  By way of comparison: I believe that life exists elsewhere in the universe, but I also admit that I do not have enough information to know for certain one way or the other.

Quote
An agnostic doesn't claim that god does not exist.
An atheist does claim that.

As I said, this is a common misconception.  Most atheists do not make that claim.  Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities, not an insistence that deities do not exist.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2013, 11:36:35 AM »
Please explain the difference between agnostic and atheist then.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.  By way of comparison: I believe that life exists elsewhere in the universe, but I also admit that I do not have enough information to know for certain one way or the other.

Quote
An agnostic doesn't claim that god does not exist.
An atheist does claim that.

As I said, this is a common misconception.  Most atheists do not make that claim.  Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities, not an insistence that deities do not exist.

lol you believe in life elsewhere in the universe when there's no evidence for it anywhere else in the universe? And you do not believe in God on the same basis?

Quite hypocritical.

So if I say "I believe in God but don't know for certain if He's real," you would stop asking us theists for evidence?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2013, 11:39:38 AM »
lol you believe in life elsewhere in the universe when there's no evidence for it anywhere else in the universe?  And you do not believe in God on the same basis?

No.  Everything we know about pertinent scientific disciplines leads most people to the conclusion that life does exist elsewhere in the universe.  There are good reasons for thinking this to be true, even though we don't know for sure yet.  Conversely, however, there is no reason to believe that any deities exist.

Quote
So if I say "I believe in God but don't know for certain if He's real," you would stop asking us theists for evidence?

It would probably depend on what you said after that, but in fact, I just might.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online Aaron123

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #98 on: November 03, 2013, 12:15:12 PM »
skeptic54768, respond to this:


How do you "empirically" prove the non-existence of something?
   

Provide an example.  Whenever it's leprechauns or the tooth fairy, or something else.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jetson

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2013, 12:17:33 PM »

Once again, if you claim that God does not exist, that is a positive statement. One needs to prove this.

if you say "I'm not sure one way or the other" then you are agnostic. Atheism means "no God." It's an outright declaration. Otherwise, there is no point to have agnosticism since they would mean the same exact thing.

I have met many people in my life who have said, "Atheists are just as fundamentalist as Christians. It's just as dumb to declare there is no God as it is to state there is a God."

No, no, and no...you are flat out wrong.  Did you read my post above?  The truth claim is coming from theists, that is the original assertion, still unproven in any meaningful way today.  Atheists are refuting the original claim, not making up a new one.

How did you refute it?

sounds like you guys just say "Nu-uh!"

Sounds like you need a better understanding of the entire premise of truth claims, versus those who are in no way convinced.  Perhaps refute is the word giving you grief?  If so, then feel free to show us your god?  We've been waiting for anything remotely useful in terms of facts or evidence to support the existence of YHWH, and of course many other gods, so we can be patient with your assertion as well. 

Is there a god, and if so, show us this god.  Show us anything that would help us see what you think is real.  Evidence?  Facts?  Observable, testable stuff that would make the atheist stop questioning what is SO FREAKING OBVIOUS to believers?

Bottom line, if there were any god or gods, there would be no atheists.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #100 on: November 03, 2013, 12:19:17 PM »
Bottom line, if there were any god or gods, there would be no atheists.

if there was no God, there would be no theists.

Round and round on the merry go round we go.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jetson

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #101 on: November 03, 2013, 12:28:28 PM »
Bottom line, if there were any god or gods, there would be no atheists.

if there was no God, there would be no theists.

Round and round on the merry go round we go.

Typical dodge from the one who believes in that which has never been shown to be real.  OTOH, this is really good stuff for those truly searching for truth, as opposed to those who insist they already have it. 

Care to show any evidence for your god?  Bring the truth of your beliefs under the microscope of observable evidence, we are adults, we can handle it.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #102 on: November 03, 2013, 12:30:27 PM »
Skeptic, you haven't responded to this.  Do you now understand the distinction between atheism and agnosticism?  I'd appreciate a direct response… thank you.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2013, 12:33:35 PM »
Bottom line, if there were any god or gods, there would be no atheists.

if there was no God, there would be no theists.

Round and round on the merry go round we go.

Typical dodge from the one who believes in that which has never been shown to be real.  OTOH, this is really good stuff for those truly searching for truth, as opposed to those who insist they already have it. 

Care to show any evidence for your god?  Bring the truth of your beliefs under the microscope of observable evidence, we are adults, we can handle it.

I said I can't do that. God is invisible. God has proven Himself to me. I can't force God to give you the same proof He gave me.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2013, 12:34:37 PM »
Skeptic, you haven't responded to this.  Do you now understand the distinction between atheism and agnosticism?  I'd appreciate a direct response… thank you.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.

So it is a mere belief that god does not exist since you don't know for certain? You can't state objectively that God does not exist just because you have personally not received proof.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2013, 12:34:42 PM »
"Do not consort with nonbelievers" Corinthians -- well, you broke that law. Try again.

-Nam

Oh, Nam. Always trying to "Gotcha!" the Christians. try looking with your heart and understanding the text instead of looking for Gotchas.

That's not even a law. That's just a suggestion from Paul.
Like I said Nam, your Biblical knowledge is lacking.

Everything's a "suggestion"in the Bible. I guess the entire Bible is just one big suggestion.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Online Aaron123

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2013, 12:35:21 PM »
skeptic54768, respond to this:


How do you "empirically" prove the non-existence of something?
   

Provide an example.  Whenever it's leprechauns or the tooth fairy, or something else.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2013, 12:45:05 PM »
Skeptic, you haven't responded to this.  Do you now understand the distinction between atheism and agnosticism?  I'd appreciate a direct response… thank you.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.

So it is a mere belief that god does not exist since you don't know for certain? You can't state objectively that God does not exist just because you have personally not received proof.

You don't have to be so defensive. piano is simply asking if you understand the difference between two words.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline jetson

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2013, 12:47:12 PM »
Skeptic, you haven't responded to this.  Do you now understand the distinction between atheism and agnosticism?  I'd appreciate a direct response… thank you.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.

So it is a mere belief that god does not exist since you don't know for certain? You can't state objectively that God does not exist just because you have personally not received proof.

This is true, and there are few atheists who would objectively state that a god does not exist just because we have no proof.  But in practical terms, the theist is making a completely unsupportable claim on the existence with 100% certainty.  That is far more damaging in practical terms than it is to state that a god does not exist.

It is completely impractical and rather pointless to make a list of things that do not exist.  It is far easier to take claims such as the existence of a god, and ask that the people making the claim do something more than just make a claim.  The theists, however, refuse to do anything beyond making an unsupportable claim.  That's why there are atheists.  Not to mention the damage done by certain people among the myriad religions and gods over the centuries.

My personal reason for being outspoken, is to fight back against the attempts in the United States to legislate morality based on religious beliefs.  Absolutely unacceptable.  Have your religious beliefs and morals, but try to legislate them upon me, and you will hear from me.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2013, 12:47:24 PM »
Skeptic, you haven't responded to this.  Do you now understand the distinction between atheism and agnosticism?  I'd appreciate a direct response… thank you.

Atheism is a statement about belief.  Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.  It is possible to lack belief in a deity and also state that one does not know for certain whether deities exist or not.

So it is a mere belief that god does not exist since you don't know for certain? You can't state objectively that God does not exist just because you have personally not received proof.

Please just answer the question.  Do you now understand what the difference is between atheism and agnosticism?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2013, 12:52:14 PM »
He thinks he refutes us at every turn but he doesn't if we, in his mind, can't prove his god doesn't exist with 100% certainty then that means, to him, his god exists with 100% certainty.

Pathetic logic.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »
He thinks he refutes us at every turn but he doesn't if we, in his mind, can't prove his god doesn't exist with 100% certainty then that means, to him, his god exists with 100% certainty.

Pathetic logic.

-Nam

Nam, love isn't based on logic. yet, many atheists love.

No matter how illogical it may be to be with a certain woman, as long as you love her, you don't care about logic.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #112 on: November 03, 2013, 01:12:57 PM »
They talk about God sometimes more than believers! :o
Just look at this bustling forum!

They are so close to God, and yet so far away at the same time.

God is right there waiting for you.

If you guys truly didn't believe in God, why talk about Him every day? I believe that deep down, you can feel God's presence. But at the same time, you guys also are skeptical of the presence as being God's.

Hopefully, they will receive their much needed "boost" from the Lord just like I received.


This is why I admire the atheist. They are constantly searching.

You are quite mistaken on many fronts, but I can see why b/c I used to say the same thing when I was a Christian apologist. Many of us talk about 'the idea' in our culture of 'God' b/c so many damn gullible people believe it and vote based upon it but that does not mean (at all) that we think a 'God' thing is real. If I talk about a unicorn does that automatically mean I think it's real? Your logic is terrible. Go learn some.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #113 on: November 03, 2013, 01:20:56 PM »

Commendable for your well thought out post. But, you have to remember atheists are confusing to believers as well.

You got some atheists who say "Nihilism all the way! it's all meaningless! Kill all you want!" then you got others who say things like, "Love one another!"

Atheists are not consistent either, yet they are still atheist. This doesn't lead you to doubt atheism like it does Christianity. Why is that? Confirmation bias?

Atheism is not a belief. It a lack of belief. It is not a positive claim. That is where you keep going wrong here. Do you have a belief in unicorns? If not, then you are an "A-unicornist". In the same way, many of us are "A-theist" (aka - we do not HAVE a belief in a god/deity etc). Again, no positive claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #114 on: November 03, 2013, 01:34:19 PM »
He thinks he refutes us at every turn but he doesn't if we, in his mind, can't prove his god doesn't exist with 100% certainty then that means, to him, his god exists with 100% certainty.

Pathetic logic.

-Nam

Nam, love isn't based on logic. yet, many atheists love.

No matter how illogical it may be to be with a certain woman, as long as you love her, you don't care about logic.

You're confusing emotions with logic. They are not mutually exclusive.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline median

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Re: I Admire The Atheist
« Reply #115 on: November 03, 2013, 01:45:12 PM »
Bottom line, if there were any god or gods, there would be no atheists.

if there was no God, there would be no theists.

Round and round on the merry go round we go.

You're absolutely wrong on this. You act as if people don't ever believe false/made up things, but they do! Astrology is completely false (and made up) and yet lots of people believe it. There are tons more examples of people believing make believe things, and I think you know it. Your argument is just mistaken. But the reverse IS true (as Jetson noted). If your alleged "all-powerful" God existed, and he desired that everyone would acknowledge him, then everyone would (just like the alleged Satan does and just like everyone acknowledge the existence of WATER). Unbelief simply cannot exist in a world where your supposed God is real.

The only "round and round" here is your dodging and weaving with your irrational assumption based arguments.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan