Author Topic: Forgiveness...  (Read 935 times)

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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2013, 05:39:39 PM »
Keep in mind if God didn't exist, there would be no laws against anything. But, there are laws against things......
Man kind has created a very well balanced set of laws that are being constantly improved as the years go by.
All laws are man made, biblical laws are stuck in the time they were invented- the dark ages (still think we should stone gays?)
Biblical laws are written in a book that is, wait for it, MAN MADE..
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline neopagan

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2013, 05:41:50 PM »
I used to know a guy who used to curse at me every day and say he hated me. He would say awful things. I would always respond back, "i love you, brother."

Skep, you caused your own brother to sin?... He was trying to follow jeezus, for chrissakes!

Luke 14:26 (NIV) If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2013, 05:45:04 PM »
   I guess I am a bit alone, here.  I think forgiveness is one of the most important acts we can do for ourselves and the other person.  Forgiveness really is the power of carrying your enemy's pack the second mile - IMO, a wise way to look at relationships no matter what you believe.
 
Quote
Forgiveness is letting go of the need for revenge and releasing negative thoughts of bitterness and resentment.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-forgiveness/000965

   My uninformed guess is it is harder on our lives not forgiving than it is to forgive.  If we can stand outside ourselves and view the circumstances, many times we will shake our heads at how serious we take a little thing.

   If it's a big thing, like forgiving a murderer, it would take a while and we should be free to set up a tent in the graveyard, or outside the prison wall, and cry the rest of our lives.  No one should ever judge us. It is like war - no matter how long it takes, eventually we get tired of it, and things move on - easy to say, I know.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 05:52:15 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2013, 05:50:25 PM »
Keep in mind if God didn't exist, there would be no laws against anything. But, there are laws against things......
Man kind has created a very well balanced set of laws that are being constantly improved as the years go by.
All laws are man made, biblical laws are stuck in the time they were invented- the dark ages (still think we should stone gays?)
Biblical laws are written in a book that is, wait for it, MAN MADE..

What would the laws be based on? Our own subjective feelings? That's a sticky mess.

Sure, I might not want to get tortured but kids don't want to go to school and we force them. if God didn't exist, and people wanted to torture me, I would have no rational basis to say no. I certainly couldn't argue that I am one of God's children that deserves respect. I would have to say, "According to evolution I am the weak one who deserves to die and you are the strong one because you are torturing me. If I was the strong one, I wouldn't be about to be tortured."

Pretty damn scary without God.  :o
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Nam

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2013, 05:56:08 PM »
   I guess I am a bit alone, here.  I think forgiveness is one of the most important acts we can do for ourselves and the other person.  Forgiveness really is the power of carrying your enemy's pack the second mile - IMO, a wise way to look at relationships no matter what you believe.
 
Quote
Forgiveness is letting go of the need for revenge and releasing negative thoughts of bitterness and resentment.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-forgiveness/000965

   My uninformed guess is it is harder on our lives not forgiving than it is to forgive.  If we can stand outside ourselves and view the circumstances, many times we will shake our heads at how serious we take a little thing.

   If it's a big thing, like forgiving a murderer, it would take a while and you are free to set up a tent in the graveyard, or outside the prison wall, and cry the rest of your life.  No one should ever judge you. It is like war - no matter how long it takes, eventually we get tired of it, and things move on - easy to say, I know.


The problem I have with this is the person you're giving most likely will do what they were asking forgiveness from you for, again. To you. It's wasted. I have no problem with forgiving people who mean what they say but those people, in my opinion, are few and far between.

Which is one of the main reasons I don't ask people for forgiveness because what I do and say 99% of the time, I mean. If a person does or says something why ask for forgiveness, or apologize for it? They didn't mean it? Why did they do or say it to begin with?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2013, 05:58:45 PM »
What would the laws be based on? Our own subjective feelings? That's a sticky mess.
What do you mean by "what would". Laws are here now, and are based on years of understanding, reasoning, debating and a great deal of common sense.
 
Quote
Sure, I might not want to get tortured but kids don't want to go to school and we force them. if God didn't exist, and people wanted to torture me, I would have no rational basis to say no. I certainly couldn't argue that I am one of God's children that deserves respect. I would have to say, "According to evolution I am the weak one who deserves to die and you are the strong one because you are torturing me. If I was the strong one, I wouldn't be about to be tortured."
I am too tired to try and make sense of this statement.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2013, 05:59:07 PM »
Keep in mind if God didn't exist, there would be no laws against anything. But, there are laws against things......
Man kind has created a very well balanced set of laws that are being constantly improved as the years go by.
All laws are man made, biblical laws are stuck in the time they were invented- the dark ages (still think we should stone gays?)
Biblical laws are written in a book that is, wait for it, MAN MADE..

What would the laws be based on? Our own subjective feelings? That's a sticky mess.

Sure, I might not want to get tortured but kids don't want to go to school and we force them. if God didn't exist, and people wanted to torture me, I would have no rational basis to say no. I certainly couldn't argue that I am one of God's children that deserves respect. I would have to say, "According to evolution I am the weak one who deserves to die and you are the strong one because you are torturing me. If I was the strong one, I wouldn't be about to be tortured."

Pretty damn scary without God.  :o

Wrong, people have evolved to live in communities. Even Neanderthals looked after the weak members of their communities.

Do you see how the demon in your head is forcing you to make claims about subjects you know nothing about?
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2013, 06:37:00 PM »
What would the laws be based on? Our own subjective feelings? That's a sticky mess.
That's what laws have always been based on, although lots of people in the past have declared that some god or another was the basis for their laws.  So, yes, it is a sticky mess, but it's always been a sticky mess, and it will always be one.  So you keep it as simple as you can, and don't make excuses or try to justify things with references to gods.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Sure, I might not want to get tortured but kids don't want to go to school and we force them.
Oh, come on.  The two are hardly even close to the same thing.  How can you compare being tortured with sending kids to school?

Quote from: skeptic54768
if God didn't exist, and people wanted to torture me, I would have no rational basis to say no. I certainly couldn't argue that I am one of God's children that deserves respect. I would have to say, "According to evolution I am the weak one who deserves to die and you are the strong one because you are torturing me. If I was the strong one, I wouldn't be about to be tortured."
Sure there's a rational basis.  "If you torture me, you're giving your okay to someone else who's stronger than you torturing you.  So instead, let's both agree to not torture each other, and work to get other people to accept it, since I'm sure they wouldn't want to get tortured by someone stronger than them."

Quote from: skeptic54768
Pretty damn scary without God.  :o
Except that what do you do if God is the one ordering you to commit torture on others, or orders you to get tortured?  So it's pretty damn scary even with your god.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2013, 06:46:19 PM »
Skep,

You know you have never studied mathematics. Where did all that incorrect junk about zeros come from?

You have seen demons lead others astray by giving false information and your demon is doing the same to you.

See my reply 1497 on your sacrifice thread for more information.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2013, 06:46:39 PM »
Random Questions on Forgiveness...

Do you really want/need to keep the offender in your life?

Is what they did something you would allow in others?

Is what they did likely to be repeated?

Will you feel the same about this person if you let this issue go?

Was what they did because they did not know it would bother you or because they did not care?

It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline shnozzola

Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2013, 06:47:38 PM »
The problem I have with this is the person you're giving most likely will do what they were asking forgiveness from you for, again. To you. It's wasted.

I see what you mean, Nam.  I think of forgiveness as only something the person wronged is able do.  Maybe if we do not put ourselves in position to have it happen again.

Quote
Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. Forgiveness is one person’s inner response to another’s perceived injustice. Reconciliation is two people coming together in mutual respect. Reconciliation requires both parties working together. Forgiveness is something that is entirely up to you. Although reconciliation may follow forgiveness, it is possible to forgive without re-establishing or continuing the relationship. The person you forgive may be deceased or no longer part of your life. You may also choose not to reconcile, perhaps because you have no reason to believe that a relationship with the other person is healthy for you.


http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/forgiveness/understanding-forgiveness
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Online Nam

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2013, 08:01:14 PM »
Forgiveness is deserving. Not everyone deserves it.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2013, 08:03:45 PM »
Sure there's a rational basis.  "If you torture me, you're giving your okay to someone else who's stronger than you torturing you.  So instead, let's both agree to not torture each other, and work to get other people to accept it, since I'm sure they wouldn't want to get tortured by someone stronger than them."

And if the person responds by saying "OK" and chuckling, then what?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2013, 08:47:14 PM »
Skep,why other than "Jesus" have God's laws on moral servitude to him been abandoned? Stoning gays,killing unruly teen,killing those who work the Sabbath,,marrying your rapist. If they make sense before Jesus,why wait to bring Jesus out? Jesus only forgives Sin,he does not abolish OT law.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2013, 09:40:58 PM »
Skep,why other than "Jesus" have God's laws on moral servitude to him been abandoned? Stoning gays,killing unruly teen,killing those who work the Sabbath,,marrying your rapist. If they make sense before Jesus,why wait to bring Jesus out? Jesus only forgives Sin,he does not abolish OT law.

OT law was for the Jews, considering there were no Christians around yet.

You would probably want to ask a Rabbi why he's not out stoning gays.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Nam

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2013, 12:12:43 AM »
Skep,why other than "Jesus" have God's laws on moral servitude to him been abandoned? Stoning gays,killing unruly teen,killing those who work the Sabbath,,marrying your rapist. If they make sense before Jesus,why wait to bring Jesus out? Jesus only forgives Sin,he does not abolish OT law.

OT law was for the Jews, considering there were no Christians around yet.

You would probably want to ask a Rabbi why he's not out stoning gays.

If you ever bring up the OT in defense of your religion, anything in it, I'll remember this post.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jag

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2013, 09:21:23 AM »
Sure there's a rational basis.  "If you torture me, you're giving your okay to someone else who's stronger than you torturing you.  So instead, let's both agree to not torture each other, and work to get other people to accept it, since I'm sure they wouldn't want to get tortured by someone stronger than them."

And if the person responds by saying "OK" and chuckling, then what?
Then you've just gotten their agreement to not only not torture you, you've gotten them to agree to help you spread the word about not torturing to other people as well. Sounds like a success to me. Would you rather be tortured? Looking for an excuse to sing"Onward Christian Soldiers", bravely?
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline RubyLeo

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2013, 09:23:46 AM »
Because this thread grew so fast last night when I wasn't looking - I don't think I can manage trying to respond to every person. I hope this isn't a faux pas here?  My head might explode trying and that wouldn't be pretty.

I do want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their thoughtful answers.  Yes, everyone.  You have all given me so much food for thought, I won't be hungry for days.

A couple of you mentioned that I should examine why something would bother me so long after the incident - that is a good question. I think it's because I, trying to do the xtian thing, attempted to turn the other cheek and let it go.  Emphasis on "tried."  That can build up into resentment.

FWIW, I'm feeling some freedom in letting it go by not forcing myself to forgive.  My heart resonates most with the answers/insight from those whose answers discussed this perspective. No, the incident(s) didn't involve murder, but it involved some pretty fucked up betrayal and I just don't think it is worth my time to wring my hands over it any more.  I cannot tell you how many xtian books I read dealing with forgiveness (hint: too many to count).  I'm frankly sick of it. 

I was seeking some fresh outlook on the topic - and boy did you all deliver - it's a fascinating topic and I was rewarded with some really thoughtful responses.

I have to say that, I've been involved in online discussion groups before, but this place is a goldmine of deep thinkers, and off-the-charts intellect. It's a bit intimidating - but fun to watch and try to keep up.  :laugh:

Thanks again for the input, all of you.

ETA: minor typo fix
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 09:25:45 AM by RubyLeo »
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
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Offline Jag

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2013, 09:43:07 AM »
Back on topic: forgiveness is personal and I don't think anyone can set hard and fast rules about how and when, or even if, one should offer it.

Some things aren't forgivable. Some things are perhaps less about a need to give or receive forgiveness than they are about a need to separate from the person. And some things you just have to learn to live with in order to maintain a relationship. But you always have choices.

Forgiveness doesn't always come easy to me. Sometimes I have to reframe the situation to see it from a different perspective in order to find a way to get past whatever it was that caused the problem. I'm more inclined to do that in close relationships when it's possible - I have no interaction with my father because he can't meet me halfway and I've reached the limit of my willingness to compromise. It's too bad it ended up that way, but the way things were was extremely unhealthy for me. Forgiveness sort of applies but makes no practical difference. He was the best father he was capable of being, but he wasn't much of a father - for me this isn't about forgiving him, it's about accepting that he is not going to wake up tomorrow and be a new person. He either can't or won't change, and my well-being is my priority.

Maybe it's just an issue of semantics, but I find that letting myself off the hook about forgiveness and instead aiming for acceptance works better for me. In the end I'm not sure they're really all that different.
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Offline RubyLeo

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2013, 10:12:44 AM »
Back on topic: forgiveness is personal and I don't think anyone can set hard and fast rules about how and when, or even if, one should offer it.

Yes. This makes total sense.

Quote
Forgiveness doesn't always come easy to me. Sometimes I have to reframe the situation to see it from a different perspective in order to find a way to get past whatever it was that caused the problem. I'm more inclined to do that in close relationships when it's possible - I have no interaction with my father because he can't meet me halfway and I've reached the limit of my willingness to compromise. It's too bad it ended up that way, but the way things were was extremely unhealthy for me. Forgiveness sort of applies but makes no practical difference. He was the best father he was capable of being, but he wasn't much of a father - for me this isn't about forgiving him, it's about accepting that he is not going to wake up tomorrow and be a new person. He either can't or won't change, and my well-being is my priority.

This is very healthy thinking. I'm sorry to hear about your dad, but your outlook is quite mature on this.

Quote
Maybe it's just an issue of semantics, but I find that letting myself off the hook about forgiveness and instead aiming for acceptance works better for me. In the end I'm not sure they're really all that different.

Agreed. I can totally get behind "accept and move on."  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.  :)
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
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Offline Jag

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2013, 10:18:44 AM »
This is very healthy thinking. I'm sorry to hear about your dad, but your outlook is quite mature on this.
It should be by now, I've been working on getting here on this issue for the better part of 20 years! Like I said, it doesn't always come easy to me  ;)
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline RubyLeo

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2013, 10:28:00 AM »
This is very healthy thinking. I'm sorry to hear about your dad, but your outlook is quite mature on this.
It should be by now, I've been working on getting here on this issue for the better part of 20 years! Like I said, it doesn't always come easy to me  ;)

LOL - well, you're human, so there is that.  ;)

Most people I know couldn't get there, so kudos to you for getting there in the first place!
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2013, 12:06:37 PM »
Because this thread grew so fast last night when I wasn't looking - I don't think I can manage trying to respond to every person. I hope this isn't a faux pas here?  My head might explode trying and that wouldn't be pretty.
I don't think there is any problem not responding to all posts, replies can come so fast at times it just wouldn't be possible even if you were online at the time.
Quote
I have to say that, I've been involved in online discussion groups before, but this place is a goldmine of deep thinkers, and off-the-charts intellect. It's a bit intimidating - but fun to watch and try to keep up.  :laugh:
I quite agree but I do genuinely  feel that everyone's opinions are all valued here.We all have different lives and experiences that can add to a discussion and help each other.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 12:13:29 PM by Jonny-UK »
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2013, 12:40:26 PM »
The hardest person to forgive is yourself.  I did not put myself first and because of that have ruined my life and my son's life too.  Now it may be too late to fix because I have ruined my health.  How can I forgive that?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline RubyLeo

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Re: Forgiveness...
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2013, 03:52:57 PM »
The hardest person to forgive is yourself.  I did not put myself first and because of that have ruined my life and my son's life too.  Now it may be too late to fix because I have ruined my health.  How can I forgive that?

LoriPinkAngel - this is heartbreaking for me to read - blaming yourself for something completely out of your hands. Please rethink this.

I do not know your situation, but have a similar scenario with my own health. I have wrestled with some serious guilt about this, as a mom and a wife.

However - and this is the important part - if I refuse to forgive myself, it makes a challenging situation worse, and does no favors for my family.

I consider self-forgiveness to be completely different than forgiving others. I personally believe that forgiving others is optional, but forgiving yourself - however you may define that - is imperative and non-negotiable, if you wish to have a better life.

I urge you to be KIND to yourself. It's the absolute best thing you can do for yourself and for your son! If you need to talk please feel free to PM me.


"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
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