Author Topic: Germany and gender  (Read 1084 times)

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Offline Mrjason

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Germany and gender
« on: November 01, 2013, 07:44:49 AM »
Germany is going to allow babies born with indeterminate gender to be registered as just that. Indeterminate.

from the article;
Quote
The move is aimed at removing pressure on parents to make quick decisions on sex assignment surgery for newborns.

I say great, why shouldn't you allow a person to make a choice when they are able to rather than
Quote from: from the article
remain the patchwork created by doctors

What I find most interesting about this article are the comments left after it. Check out the fundies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24767225

Online Nam

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2013, 02:45:25 PM »
Do you have a link comments? Not showing on my phone.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Traveler

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2013, 03:10:08 PM »
This is a wonderful step forward.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Nick

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2013, 03:27:06 PM »
Another logical move by another country.  Imagine even discussing it in the states.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Jag

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2013, 03:42:11 PM »
Comment from the article that made me laugh: It might not be earth shattering, but it is still news. Having said that, it is earth shattering for the religious posters judging by the number of kittens they have given birth too while decrying a 3rd option on a form.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Online wright

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 03:43:58 PM »
Very interesting. Human sexuality has nuances beyond male-female, gay-straight; this has been known for some time. Now at least some cultures are starting to catch up; a pleasant step forward to a more thoughtful dialogue on the topic. One that can ultimately benefit everyone.

Another logical move by another country.  Imagine even discussing it in the states.

No kidding. Just look at the sh*tstorm over possibly stopping routine male circumcision here. Other regulars here have said it and I agree: the US is in danger of becoming a big North Korea; xenophobic, failing infrastructure, unwilling to take care of its own and plan rationally for the future.
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Offline kindred

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2013, 01:22:25 AM »
Gender has always been on a sliding scale rather than binary. It has just always been much easier to classify with the binary one. Its nice to know that we are advancing enough that we can actually afford to not give out binary roles to people and just accept them as whatever they are as inconvenient as that might be.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2013, 04:18:45 PM »
Good on them. If only we in the US would stop being so arrogant that we have gotten everything right, so we could learn something from other countries. But I am not holding my breath since we still don't realize we need health care for everyone, or to teach our kids science, critical thinking and foreign languages. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2013, 06:00:19 AM »
Another logical move by another country.  Imagine even discussing it in the states.

First, we have to get through the 1950s.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 03:28:24 PM »
Another logical move by another country.  Imagine even discussing it in the states.

First, we have to get through the 1950s.

Again. Because it was so much fun the first time around....&)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2013, 09:51:49 AM »
Do you have a link comments? Not showing on my phone.

-Nam

no there isn't.

I'll post some of the better ones.

Quote
24.Mega Awesume Pooster
1st November 2013 - 8:46
God created WOMEN from the rib of MAN. God did NOT create another gender. THIS IS BLASPHEMY.

Quote
169.sir guffington
1st November 2013 - 9:53
This will just confuse the children even more. Look to the Lord God our Savior and let Him decide.

Man should not be making these sorts of decisions, the rapture will come soon to punish those acting in the name of the Lord God Our Father

and again

Quote
393.sir guffington
1st November 2013 - 11:57
I am quite frankly DISGUSTED by the anti-religious comments here on the BBC.

GOD created EVERYONE, as @24 rightly said, WOMAN is from MANS rib, I do NOT remember reading in the bible about a THIRD gender

Quote
146.Alistair Bull
1st November 2013 - 9:39
This says everything you need to know about Europe and its God despising politicians. We need to get out of the EU IMMEDIATELY

Quote
496.Rafal M
1st November 2013 - 12:59
Opportunism, Opportunism, Opportunism - forms in the UK have empty space in the box gender (sex), the next stage of Darwinian education (fake science).

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 12:31:45 AM »
Quote
169.sir guffington
1st November 2013 - 9:53
This will just confuse the children even more. Look to the Lord God our Savior and let Him decide.

Man should not be making these sorts of decisions, the rapture will come soon to punish those acting in the name of the Lord God Our Father

Ironic. Just who do they think makes the decision whether the newborn will be male or female if thier All-Powerful God can't make it clear enough upon birth? Instead of attacking this, they should be asking God why he's so incompetent at doing something he should have lots of experience doing[1].

Look to who, and let who decide? He already had his chance and fraked it up!
 1. As if an All-Knowing All-Powerful God needed experience to do something right the first time, every time.  :o Oh, I mean a Real one.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 12:34:42 AM by Ivellios »

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 12:50:24 AM »
This could cost a fortune in public toilet additions. And could add the biggest syallble word to a Restaurant Manager's vocabulary.

" John, could you pop out the back and give the indeterminates a mop out please? "
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Shaffy

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 09:57:41 AM »
Good step forward

 -Shaffy
We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it.

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Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2013, 10:44:39 AM »
This could cost a fortune in public toilet additions. And could add the biggest syallble word to a Restaurant Manager's vocabulary.

" John, could you pop out the back and give the indeterminates a mop out please? "


The vast, vast majority of "indeterminates" will have decided to identify with one of the two more "traditional" genders by they time they are old enough to need a separate bathroom. The idea is to let Them choose when they are old enough to understand rather than having someone else choose when they are a week old.

Of all the things to go to the bible for answers to, gender roles is the biggest pile of shit. Woman as property, and non hetero-normative activity  punishable by death... that sounds reasonable &)
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 11:32:30 AM »
Actually, Red, it seems as though more and more people are identifying as gender fluid. Many words for it, but not wanting to choose a gender at all, and feeling uncomfortable with either gender. There is someone in my life who self identifies as gender queer, and they want no gendered pronouns or to have to choose. Many large places I go to have private bathrooms. Whether for families (father helping his daughter, or mother helping son), or for diaper changing, or for handicapped access, or for someone who wants total privacy for any reasons, including gender non-conforming.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2013, 01:02:55 PM »
Actually, Red, it seems as though more and more people are identifying as gender fluid. Many words for it, but not wanting to choose a gender at all, and feeling uncomfortable with either gender. There is someone in my life who self identifies as gender queer, and they want no gendered pronouns or to have to choose. Many large places I go to have private bathrooms. Whether for families (father helping his daughter, or mother helping son), or for diaper changing, or for handicapped access, or for someone who wants total privacy for any reasons, including gender non-conforming.

True, but I would expect to see the end of of gender specific public restrooms before we see the inclusion of bathrooms specifically for for additional genders.

It follows that if gender is a fluid continuity, then arbitrarily dividing them by bathroom into three sets is as illogical as dividing them into two.

Of course I could be dead wrong about that. We're still a long way from the majority even recognizing that intersex is a thing, let alone accommodating it (in america at least. Go Germany!) The path forward could lead to a lot of weird places.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 01:33:09 PM by RED_ApeTHEIST »
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2013, 01:27:56 PM »
This could cost a fortune in public toilet additions. And could add the biggest syallble word to a Restaurant Manager's vocabulary.

" John, could you pop out the back and give the indeterminates a mop out please? "

My BF and I once had a discussion over which bathroom transgenders should use.  I figure if one has a penis and wishes to use the urinal they should obviously use the men's room.  If they are using the stall they may go into which ever one they are dressed for.  Who cares if the person in the next stall has different parts?  Some places have unisex bathrooms now.  Anyone remember Ally McBeal?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2013, 05:41:02 PM »
Every person on the planet grew up in a home with bathrooms and showers that accommodated all ages, genders and sexualities. And somehow, we all survived.  Just as a reminder to people freaking out about gay or transgender folks in bathrooms.

I remember the same crap (heh) being brought up during the debate over the Equal Rights Amendment to the US constitution back in the day. It did not pass, and one of the scare tactics was that all bathrooms in the country would have to be unisex!  The idea was that every public bathroom would be equipped with a male child molester lying in wait for little girls. Horrors.[1]

Now many places like airports have "family bathrooms" that anyone can use. In colleges they put up flip signs when the dorms went coed. That's unisex, and the world has not ended.

Similarly, the people (meaning men) against gay folks in the military often brought up their mortal fear of a gay guy looking at them in a communal shower. Dude, if you weren't looking at the gay guy, how would you know whether or not he was looking at you? Eyes front, problem solved.

Why it always comes down to bathrooms and showers is beyond me-- how much time do you spend in there, anyway?
 1. Thanks, Obama. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2013, 05:54:32 PM »
I know that the laws passed in Germany really don't have a major implication on anything, and my post about toilets was in jest. Fairly obviously, I thought.

But, since the topic of public unisex toilets has been discussed, I will say this:

As a parent, if my 12 year old girl needed to use a public toilet there is no way in hell I would let her use it before I checked it to see if any men were also inside. Just no frikking way in hell. If that makes me somehow bigoted, or misyoginst, or whatever, then so be it. I am a father first, and my protective instincts dont give a shit about social niceties or political correctness.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 05:56:07 PM by magicmiles »
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2013, 09:33:36 PM »

Similarly, the people (meaning men) against gay folks in the military often brought up their mortal fear of a gay guy looking at them in a communal shower. Dude, if you weren't looking at the gay guy, how would you know whether or not he was looking at you? Eyes front, problem solved.

When I was in the Military I didn't know anyone who was against gays serving.  The only good thing about the restriction against gays was it was a "get out of your commitment free card."  Just say you're gay & you're out.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2013, 12:31:51 PM »
I know that the laws passed in Germany really don't have a major implication on anything, and my post about toilets was in jest. Fairly obviously, I thought.

But, since the topic of public unisex toilets has been discussed, I will say this:

As a parent, if my 12 year old girl needed to use a public toilet there is no way in hell I would let her use it before I checked it to see if any men were also inside. Just no frikking way in hell. If that makes me somehow bigoted, or misyoginst, or whatever, then so be it. I am a father first, and my protective instincts dont give a shit about social niceties or political correctness.

That is exactly right. I am with you there, and I pity the fool who touches my child in any toilet, anywhere in the world. Yes, I would be looking at jail time and the fool would not be looking at anything.

Pretty much every parent has the same reaction to the idea that all public restrooms would be just free-for-alls with strangers--men, women, kids, whoever-- all mingling in there together.  :P

And that is why the opponents of the ERA told people the law would require all bathrooms in the country to be unisex. People freaked completely out. IIRC the law required that there be equal public accommodations for both men and women, which is the way things already are. Nothing about "equal rights under the law" says that you have to pee in front of women if you are a guy, or change your pad in front of a man if you are a gal.

The only thing that was really of a concern to me about the law was that women would be eligible for the military draft. Which would have meant either 1) women would be drafted into the military, or most likely, 2) there would never be another draft. Because women vote. 8)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2013, 01:02:30 PM »
I know that the laws passed in Germany really don't have a major implication on anything, and my post about toilets was in jest. Fairly obviously, I thought.

But, since the topic of public unisex toilets has been discussed, I will say this:

As a parent, if my 12 year old girl needed to use a public toilet there is no way in hell I would let her use it before I checked it to see if any men were also inside. Just no frikking way in hell. If that makes me somehow bigoted, or misyoginst, or whatever, then so be it. I am a father first, and my protective instincts dont give a shit about social niceties or political correctness.

When I was a little girl, and I was out with my dad, he, of course, could not accompany me into a public rest room.  He hover outside of the door that was clearly marked with a stick figure wearing a skirt, and he would send little old ladies in after me, calling my name and embarrassing me.   

If the bathrooms were unisex, he could have stood by the sink, outside the stall door, rather than in the lobby of some movie theater or some mall hallway, hoping i was safe inside the ladies rest room. 

Offline Traveler

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 02:28:15 PM »
You're all assuming today's norm of stalls. There are many places that have full, locking, individual doors. It could be something to transition to over time. private doors opening onto a hallway with sinks, rather than separate men/women sink areas and stall doors with open bottoms and cracks on the sides.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 03:31:52 PM »
Now that we realize that, amazingly enough,  girl children are often with male adults and boy children are often with female adults. It definitely seems like one of those easily solvable logistical problems that should not freak everyone out--maybe they will just invent a pill so we don't have to go at all.... &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2013, 04:08:52 PM »
Are kids that are so young that they cant go into the bathroom by themselves gendered enough that it's a problem? Why not just take your kids into the bathroom you can enter? Kids at that age are pretty androgynous and uninterested in gender anyways.

When I was very young my mum just took me into the ladies bathroom with her. By the time I was old enough to think that was weird I was old enough that I didn't need a bathroom monitor any more.

Also, it's not like folks stand around public bathrooms waving their junk around at children. Ladies will all be in stalls and gentleman are either in stalls or facing urinals. Accidental junk viewings are fairly rare... at least in my experience.

So is this conversation entirely about bathrooms now? How sad is it that 4 out of 5 conversations about gender acceptance turn to bathroom etiquette? 4 out of 5 out of conversations among cisgendered folk at least.
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Re: Germany and gender
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2013, 04:33:52 PM »
Quite frankly, Red, I think the greatest issue is fear. Women are afraid of men, especially in lonely places after dark. Statistics on rape are terrifyingly real. And fear about child molesters. The problem is that there truly ARE predators out there waiting, and one feels particularly vulnerable when one's pants are around one's knees.

At my niece's college, the dorm bathrooms are co-ed. The students didn't seem to mind. I felt a little vulnerable, but I think I could get used to it in that context. A rest area in the dead of night, not so much.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.