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Offline Jag

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Facts about abortion
« on: October 31, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »
OPINION: Rather than trying to ban abortions, the pro-birth side could choose to focus instead on the common goal shared by almost everyone who has an opinion on the topic – reducing the number of children born to parents who are ill-equipped for any reason to adequately care for them. That they don’t do so not only interferes with any progress that society can agree is an improvement, it actually deters us from making any real progress at all.

The central dilemma under question is over presumed and perceived rights, and which should take precedence. This is further subject to debate based on the philosophical question of when, exactly, life begins. In theory, it’s either conception or birth, but in practice this is a question that has no definitive answer.  In Roe v Wade, the Supreme Court stated: "We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to an answer."  Turning to the Bible for guidance produces answers that are in conflict with each other. The only solution in a functioning democracy is to allow the moral consequence to remain between the individuals in question and their personal God.
The Separation of Church and State exists for very valid reasons. Theocracy and democracy are fundamentally incompatible.  Canon law and civil law are not the same thing, and they are not interchangeable – the founding fathers went to great lengths to ensure that it remains that way.

FACTS:
Bible does not address the issue directly, in fact there are several passages that conflict with each other AND with the pro-life position:
•   Gen 2:7 & Ezekiel 37:5-6 both state that life begins at first breath; Exodus 21:22 explains the fine to be paid by any man who causes a woman to miscarry, but also states that if that act results in her death, he pays with his own life. The life of the woman is more valuable than that of the child she carries. The miscarriage is treated much like a property loss. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s there.
•   Leviticus 27:6 and Numbers 3:15-16 both claim that personhood is at one month
•   Numbers also includes instructions to induce an abortion in a woman who may be pregnant by a man other than her husband (Numbers 5)
•   The 10 Commandments do  not address it in any way
•   Exodus 34 fails to address it as well, although the list of “shall” and “shall not” is quite long, and explicit.
•   Other passages support the idea that God calls to individuals before conception (Genesis 18:9; 1 Samuel 1:17; Luke 1:31). Will we be hearing anyone make the case that human life begins before conception?
•   References are oblique and ambiguous at best, and conflicting at worst.

Now that we have the biblical context out of the way...

The Constitution appears to protect legal abortions in two places – one directly and one overtly:
•   14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. The only citizen identified in the 14th Amendment is the pregnant woman, who is already born, and thus subject to both protection and due process. The wording of this amendment is the basis of the “personhood for fetuses” movement.
•   Preamble: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness – family planning and the decision to take on the responsibilities of parenting obviously belong under this inalienable Constitutional right.

On the issue of rape that results in pregnancy:
•   Approximately 25,000 women get pregnant as a result of being raped each year – this is hardly an insignificant number
•   31 states allow men who father through rape to assert the same custody and visitation rights to their child or children. The perpetrator is permitted to continue tormenting the victim by legally supported means, regardless of conviction status
•   Only two studies have ever analyzed the outcomes of pregnancies from rape, but they both indicate that at least 30% of these women do chose to complete the pregnancy and raise the child – would that number be higher with better laws in place to shield both mother and child from the rapist?

Banning legal abortions creates more problems than it attempts to solve:
o   Banning legal abortions will not stop abortions, it will simply make them more dangerous, and will do nothing to increase the number of wanted children born to people prepared to raise them to become responsible, productive adults who can function in society
o   It does nothing to decrease the additional societal problems created by unwanted pregnancies, it actually serves to increase them by putting additional pressure on already strained resources
o   It opens the door to legislating morality and literal abuses of the woman in question
Search results current 10.31.13

Facts on abortion in the US:
• Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and about four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.
• Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 67% among blacks and 53% among Hispanics are unintended.
• In 2008, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000. However, between 2005 and 2008, the long-term decline in abortions stalled. From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions occurred.
• Each year, two percent of women aged 15–44 have an abortion. Half have had at least one previous abortion.
• At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45, and, at current rates, one in 10 women will have an abortion by age 20, one in four by age 30 and three in 10 by age 45.

Facts on who seeks abortions:
• 18% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15–17 obtain 6% of all abortions, teens aged 18–19 obtain 11%, and teens younger than age 15 obtain 0.4%.
• Women in their 20s account for more than half of all abortions; women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and women aged 25–29 obtain 24%.
• Non-Hispanic white women account for 36% of abortions, non-Hispanic black women for 30%, Hispanic women for 25% and women of other races for 9%.
• Thirty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions identify as Protestant and 28% as Catholic.
• Women who have never married and are not cohabiting account for 45% of all abortions
• 15% of all abortions in the US are performed on married women
• About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.
• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).
• Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level.
• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.
 
Facts on contraception use related to abortion statistics:
Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.
• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.
• Eight percent of women who have abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.
• About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women who are at risk for unintended pregnancy but are not using contraceptives. Most of these women have practiced contraception in the past.
•   An astonishing majority of women who practice some kind of birth control/family planning use either a medical or a barrier method. Only 1.5% follow what is commonly referred to as “natural family planning”, or practice abstinence during fertility.
•   98% of women who identify as religious practice birth control by non-natural family planning methods

The link between viability and abortion limits:
•   Viability
o   survival rate of premature infants:
?   2% of babies born at 22 weeks
?   19%  of babies born at 23 weeks
?   40% of babies born at 24 weeks
?   66% of babies born at 25 weeks
?   77% of babies born at 26 weeks
o   Abortion rate percentages by date:
?   61.8% before 9 weeks
?   17.1% weeks 9-10
?   9.1% weeks 11-12
•   This accounts for 88% of all abortions performed in the US, long before the fetus has any chance of survival outside the womb if miscarriage occurs instead
?   6.6% weeks13-15
?   3.8% weeks 16-20
?   Only 1.5% during week 21 or later
•   No state permits unrestricted abortion past 24 weeks unless rape of life of mother exemption applies

What problem are we trying to solve?  Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and about four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion. Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion. So let’s consider unintended pregnancies:
•   Most American families want two children. To achieve this, the average woman spends about five years pregnant, postpartum or trying to become pregnant, and three decades—more than three-quarters of her reproductive life—trying to avoid an unintended pregnancy.
•   Most individuals and couples want to plan the timing and spacing of their childbearing and to avoid unintended pregnancies, for a range of social and economic reasons. In addition, unintended pregnancy has a public health impact: Births resulting from unintended or closely spaced pregnancies are associated with adverse maternal and child health outcomes, such as delayed prenatal care, premature birth and negative physical and mental health effects for children.
•   For these reasons, reducing the unintended pregnancy rate is a national public health goal. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ Healthy People 2020 campaign aims to reduce unintended pregnancy by 10%, from 49% of pregnancies to 44% of pregnancies, over the next 10 years.
•   Currently, about half (49%) of the 6.7 million pregnancies in the United States each year (3.2 million) are unintended.
There is a great deal more factual information available here: http://www.guttmacher.org/sections/abortion.php. This source is used exclusively in the above post.
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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 11:58:50 AM »
Quote
Currently, about half (49%) of the 6.7 million pregnancies in the United States each year (3.2 million) are unintended.
There is a great deal more factual information available here: http://www.guttmacher.org/sections/abortion.php. This source is used exclusively in the above post.

The lower we get this number, the lower the abortion rate without even any fuss over whether it's right or wrong. The problem is that the very people who oppose abortion also oppose measures to help reduce unwanted pregnancies.

We need to educate girls and women better on how their own bodies work, what their options are, and what obstacles they may face. Such as how many, and which, medications can interfere with the workings of hormonal birth control.

It would also be a good idea to give males more options to control their own fertility. If both the man and the woman are using their own forms of contraception, the risk of pregnancy would be dramatically reduced in the event of one's failure.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 12:00:41 PM by Wasserbuffel »

Offline Jag

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2013, 12:14:23 PM »
Quote
Currently, about half (49%) of the 6.7 million pregnancies in the United States each year (3.2 million) are unintended.
There is a great deal more factual information available here: http://www.guttmacher.org/sections/abortion.php. This source is used exclusively in the above post.

The lower we get this number, the lower the abortion rate without even any fuss over whether it's right or wrong. The problem is that the very people who oppose abortion also oppose measures to help reduce unwanted pregnancies.
Absolutely. I've been bellowing for years that the problem is NOT unintended pregnancy, it's unwanted pregnancy. The distinction is a fine one but the facts support that conclusion.
•   Unintended does not equal unwilling
o   49% of all pregnancies in the US are unintended (20% earlier than intended, 29% after intended family size reached)
o   A sample size of 3,100,000 unintended  pregnancies resulted in 1.4 million live births, 1.3m abortions and 400,000 miscarriages
o   Non-use of birth control accounts for 52%
o   Inconsistent or irregular use is 43%
o   Method failure is only 5%
o   Improve education about birth control and unintended pregnancies will decrease
o   The natural outcome is fewer abortions
Source: Guttmacher Institute
Quote
We need to educate girls and women better on how their own bodies work, what their options are, and what obstacles they may face. Such as how many, and which, medications can interfere with the workings of hormonal birth control.
Education and accessibility are key factors. Abstinence Only policies are a colossal failure, yet they still receive Title V funding from the Federal government: http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.ViewPage&PageID=1158  and  http://hrc.nwlc.org/policy-indicators/rejection-abstinence-only-funds
Quote
It would also be a good idea to give males more options to control their own fertility. If both the man and the woman are using their own forms of contraception, the risk of pregnancy would be dramatically reduced in the event of one's failure.
I periodically find references to a male birth control pill but as far as I've been able to determine, it's either not approved for use in the US, or it's use is so rare that information is almost impossible to locate. This is a huge gaping hole in birth control options.


<<MODEDIT - Added the required "million" notations>>
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 03:30:48 AM by Anfauglir »
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Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2013, 02:58:39 PM »
Unfortunately a lot of the anti Abortion crap has nothing to do with the babies, it is all about control.  They want to tell women what they can do with their bodies, whether they should give birth, have sex, etc...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Nick

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2013, 03:09:08 PM »
They are also against sex ed and birth control so good luck getting them to "reason".
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2013, 10:20:39 PM »
Unfortunately a lot of the anti Abortion crap has nothing to do with the babies, it is all about control.  They want to tell women what they can do with their bodies, whether they should give birth, have sex, etc...

You have to tell yourself that to assuage your guilt and make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground on the issue because the people who oppose abortion are out to get you because you like having lots sex.  it couldn't possibly be about babies.  lol
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2013, 10:22:13 PM »
They are also against sex ed and birth control so good luck getting them to "reason".

maybe against sex ed being taught to 7 year olds.   lol

at least we buy our own birth control rather than going to Congress like Sandra Fluke to get them to force other people to pay for it.   lol

"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2013, 10:41:12 PM »
You have to tell yourself that ...

It's the only interpretation that makes any sense.  Case in point:  You don't want any tax money going to other peoples' birth control, even though that would surely reduce unwanted pregnancies among poor people.  Lives of unborn aren't a big concern; making sure the women who have sex receive their due punishment is more important.

You demonstrate that in your subsequent post.
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2013, 11:14:23 PM »
You have to tell yourself that ...

It's the only interpretation that makes any sense.  Case in point:  You don't want any tax money going to other peoples' birth control, even though that would surely reduce unwanted pregnancies among poor people.  Lives of unborn aren't a big concern; making sure the women who have sex receive their due punishment is more important.

You demonstrate that in your subsequent post.

lol, how much is birth control per month?  like 10 bucks?   Sandra Fluke said she spent 3000 dollars in 3 years on it.   lol  The women could just have the random man they met at McDonald's pay for it too.   

poor people can get free birth control at your favorite clinic Planned Parenthood  and other various government clinics no doubt.

i am assuming abortion critics have sex every now and then.   lol  some of them even have kids so kind of proof of that.   lol

What you do is try to turn in these women into victims of some kind of Puritan oppression seen in books/moves like The Scarlet Letter and Footloose. 
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Antidote

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 02:19:52 AM »
Your price is wrong, it's $15-$50,

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/birth-control-pill-4228.htm

But, I'll humor you and do some math
10*12=120*3=360

Seems cheap right?
But that's ONLY the pill, you're not taking into account IUDs, Nuva Ring, Depo, or even condoms.
On top of that, most doctors offices recommend annual checkups for women, on top of that, women also have to deal with the hormonal changes, there have been cases where a woman has had symptoms of pregnancy while on birth control even though they aren't pregnant.

And before you jump my case and accuse me of not knowing since i'm a male, DrT, I've had a girlfriend, my Mother, and my Sister who are not afraid to explain this to anyone who asks

Also as for your 7 year old quip, yes I absolutely believe a form of "sex-ed" should be taught, a very tame version, but something.
That's the age where children really start to get curious about their bodies, and those of the opposite gender, most don't children understand why until they're around 9-10 years old, and alot of girls start their menstrual cycle around 8 years of age.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 02:22:31 AM by Antidote »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 03:36:38 AM »
You have to tell yourself that to assuage your guilt and make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground on the issue because the people who oppose abortion are out to get you because you like having lots sex.  it couldn't possibly be about babies.  lol

What I find super-interesting is that DT doesn't even dare to challenge the copious amounts of statistics produced by Jag.  He prefers to launch personal attacks on people, I guess because calling people names is a whole lot easier than actually rebutting facts.

Specific question, DT, relating to one of the facts Jag has produced - that "31 states allow men who father through rape to assert the same custody and visitation rights to their child or children."

What is your opinion on that?  Can you understand (albeit not condone) why a woman might prefer abortion over birth in such a situation?  Why a woman might prefer abortion over adoption in such a situation, because if she gave up the baby, it could quite likely end up being raised by a rapist?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline William

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 04:19:18 AM »
Lives of unborn aren't a big concern; making sure the women who have sex receive their due punishment is more important.

Wow! That just hit me like a freight train at a level crossing - I'd never considered that angle before.  :o
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Offline Nick

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 07:59:42 AM »
They are also against sex ed and birth control so good luck getting them to "reason".

maybe against sex ed being taught to 7 year olds.   lol

at least we buy our own birth control rather than going to Congress like Sandra Fluke to get them to force other people to pay for it.   lol
Kind of like how you (and others) get Vigra?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2013, 08:02:21 AM »
Unfortunately a lot of the anti Abortion crap has nothing to do with the babies, it is all about control.  They want to tell women what they can do with their bodies, whether they should give birth, have sex, etc...

You have to tell yourself that to assuage your guilt and make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground on the issue because the people who oppose abortion are out to get you because you like having lots sex.  it couldn't possibly be about babies.  lol
If it were about the babies you would also want to be concerned about them after they were born...not taking funds away from WIC, food stamps, child care, head start, etc.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2013, 09:35:17 AM »
Quote
Wow! That just hit me like a freight train at a level crossing - I'd never considered that angle before.

You can see it in their willingness to allow what they see as murder in the case of rape and incest. If it's truly the lives of innocent babies they cared so much about there would be no difference if the woman was a willing participant in its conception or not.

We don't allow people to harm innocents after they've been a victim in any other crime, why should this be an exception?

A woman whose birth control has failed her can be just as unwilling to have a pregnancy as a rape victim, but since she was willing to have sex, they believe she should be punished.

If they really cared about the unborn, they would put their energy toward preventing unwanted pregnancies to begin with. Instead of just assuming that slutty women are hanging out at McDonald's just waiting for the next penis they can ride. People like Dr. Troll would actually educate themselves about the hardships faced by actual women in this world instead of just conjuring up these caricatures in their minds.

I'm a real woman who has been fortunate enough to not have faced most of the problems women who need abortions have. I'm college educated, middle-class, and surrounded by supportive people and healthy relationships.  I'm capable of empathy, and will fight for my unfortunate sisters' rights to have control over their bodies.

Likewise, I'll fight for my rights to my own body. I have absolutely no desire to have children. The thought of being pregnant horrifies and repulses me, it always has. Yet, I have not been able to get myself permanently sterilized, because of my age and doctors' unwillingness to perform the surgery lest I change my mind and sue them.

What options are there for a woman like me?  I've been married for the better part of a decade, should DH and I remain celibate for so long because a doctor won't make it so we have no risk of pregnancy?  To Dr. Troll I'm the same as his imaginary McDonald's sluts. If I become pregnant through my enjoyment of having sex with my husband, I should just suffer the consequences, despite my use of birth control.

My BC of choice is a hormonal IUD. There is zero chance of user error. I've locked the doors and posted a "no vacancy" sign on my uterus. If the lock fails, I shouldn't have to give my body and life over to an uninvited guest, and I won't.

Offline Jag

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2013, 09:41:48 AM »
They are also against sex ed and birth control so good luck getting them to "reason".
No, this post isn't intended to persuade anyone of anything. It's just a handy reference for facts on the topic.

Quote from: DrTesla
You have to tell yourself that to assuage your guilt and make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground on the issue because the people who oppose abortion are out to get you because you like having lots sex.  it couldn't possibly be about babies.  lol
Belittling and insulting LoriPinkAngel? This, from the guy who claims he doesn't do that? Pulling random crap from thin air to insinuate things about a stranger's sex life is about what I expected from you - but you also clearly didn't read the wall of text that is the OP, so you also did exactly what I predicted you would do. Glad to see I've got you all figured out, you predictable little troll, you!
maybe against sex ed being taught to 7 year olds.   lol
Who suggested any such thing? There you go again, misunderstanding simple English in favor of listening to the voices in your head.
Quote
at least we buy our own birth control rather than going to Congress like Sandra Fluke to get them to force other people to pay for it.   lol
WTF? Who is this mysterious "we" you keep talking about - how many people do you have renting space in your head? How many birth control purchases are you making at a time? You do realize that the voices in your head do not actually require additional birth control right? One condom will be enough for all of you.
lol, how much is birth control per month?  like 10 bucks?   Sandra Fluke said she spent 3000 dollars in 3 years on it.   lol  The women could just have the random man they met at McDonald's pay for it too.   

poor people can get free birth control at your favorite clinic Planned Parenthood  and other various government clinics no doubt.

i am assuming abortion critics have sex every now and then.   lol  some of them even have kids so kind of proof of that.   lol

What you do is try to turn in these women into victims of some kind of Puritan oppression seen in books/moves like The Scarlet Letter and Footloose. 

Yeah, none of that has anything to do with the topic under discussion, or to reality for that matter. We're discussing the facts of abortion here, per the OP.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 09:51:24 AM »
You have to tell yourself that to assuage your guilt and make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground on the issue because the people who oppose abortion are out to get you because you like having lots sex.  it couldn't possibly be about babies.  lol

What I find super-interesting is that DT doesn't even dare to challenge the copious amounts of statistics produced by Jag.  He prefers to launch personal attacks on people, I guess because calling people names is a whole lot easier than actually rebutting facts.

Specific question, DT, relating to one of the facts Jag has produced - that "31 states allow men who father through rape to assert the same custody and visitation rights to their child or children."

What is your opinion on that?  Can you understand (albeit not condone) why a woman might prefer abortion over birth in such a situation?  Why a woman might prefer abortion over adoption in such a situation, because if she gave up the baby, it could quite likely end up being raised by a rapist?
Let the record show that I predicted exactly the behavior he's exhibiting well in advance of putting up this post:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25093.msg579216.html#msg579216
I'm actually cleaning up (making it easy for anyone else to read) a metric shit ton of information from my spring project and intend to post a wall of text, complete with links, so DrT can ignore it.
And:
Lots of useful factual information worthy of discussion in it's own right. I think I'll make it a new topic and just point at it from here so it's easy to get to. Maybe we can minimize the clutter that's going to spill over from DrT, who won't read it but will be fully prepared to argue about it.   :o
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 10:09:29 AM »
You can see it in their willingness to allow what they see as murder in the case of rape and incest. If it's truly the lives of innocent babies they cared so much about there would be no difference if the woman was a willing participant in its conception or not.

We don't allow people to harm innocents after they've been a victim in any other crime, why should this be an exception?
I do have to point out that a lot of people (I suspect most, though I don't have the data to show this) who oppose abortion oppose it under any circumstances, including rape and incest.  The allowance of rape and incest exceptions have largely been due to pro-choice advocates fighting tooth and nail to make some headway against ignorant attitudes regarding sex and pregnancy.  So you might want to be a little more careful about making assertions such as this.

Quote from: Wasserbuffel
A woman whose birth control has failed her can be just as unwilling to have a pregnancy as a rape victim, but since she was willing to have sex, they believe she should be punished.
Actually, it's worse than this.  There's a depressingly high number of people who have really dumb ideas about how sex and pregnancy work.  I kid you not, there are actually people who think that a woman can spontaneously keep from getting pregnant in the case of rape or incest, and so claim that any woman who actually gets pregnant for any reason must have wanted the pregnancy and thus shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion.

Quote from: Wasserbuffel
If they really cared about the unborn, they would put their energy toward preventing unwanted pregnancies to begin with. Instead of just assuming that slutty women are hanging out at McDonald's just waiting for the next penis they can ride. People like Dr. Troll would actually educate themselves about the hardships faced by actual women in this world instead of just conjuring up these caricatures in their minds.
No kidding.  That's why I support the use of birth control.  Regardless of any concerns about the morality of abortion, it's simply easier - much easier - to prevent a pregnancy from happening in the first place than to perform a medical abortion after the fact.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 10:14:08 AM »
Actually, it's worse than this.  There's a depressingly high number of people who have really dumb ideas about how sex and pregnancy work.  I kid you not, there are actually people who think that a woman can spontaneously keep from getting pregnant in the case of rape or incest, and so claim that any woman who actually gets pregnant for any reason must have wanted the pregnancy and thus shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion.

Indeed:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/us/politics/rep-todd-akin-legitimate-rape-statement-and-reaction.html?_r=0
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Jag

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2013, 10:36:16 AM »
I do have to point out that a lot of people (I suspect most, though I don't have the data to show this) who oppose abortion oppose it under any circumstances, including rape and incest.  The allowance of rape and incest exceptions have largely been due to pro-choice advocates fighting tooth and nail to make some headway against ignorant attitudes regarding sex and pregnancy.  So you might want to be a little more careful about making assertions such as this.
Anecdotal support for your position - I was more than a little unsettled by the number of posts and comments I found while researching this, that took the position of advocating death for both the woman and the doctor who performed the abortion. These are people who believe that every life is sacred, and they're willing to commit murder to prove it. Obviously.
Quote
There's a depressingly high number of people who have really dumb ideas about how sex and pregnancy work.  I kid you not, there are actually people who think that a woman can spontaneously keep from getting pregnant in the case of rape or incest, and so claim that any woman who actually gets pregnant for any reason must have wanted the pregnancy and thus shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion.
And the child she bears needs to be punished as well for being born to such a slut. Obviously.
Quote
Regardless of any concerns about the morality of abortion, it's simply easier - much easier - to prevent a pregnancy from happening in the first place than to perform a medical abortion after the fact.
I would be less vocal about my opposition to abortion restrictions if the same asshats that are tryng to do so would put equal energy into supporting education to avoid becoming pregnant in the first place, and widely available, easily accessible, reliable birth control.

The pill requires regular follow up visits to a doctor - there's no real need to do it this way though. Blood pressure (which is the primary purpose for follow-up visits) could be done at the pharmacy for pete sake - I can't speak for the entire country but you can't walk into a drug store up here without tripping over a blood pressure check machine.

There are literally dozens of effective ways to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies. Education is first - too bad the God botherers can't think their way out of a wet paper bag or we might make some real headway.

The religious right is entirely responsible for this clusterfucked lack of headway - their cognitive dissonance on display yet again.
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Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 10:43:46 AM »
Unfortunately a lot of the anti Abortion crap has nothing to do with the babies, it is all about control.  They want to tell women what they can do with their bodies, whether they should give birth, have sex, etc...

You have to tell yourself that to assuage your guilt and make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground on the issue because the people who oppose abortion are out to get you because you like having lots sex.  it couldn't possibly be about babies.  lol

If it were about babies they would be focusing on taking care of the babies.  They would not be cutting funding for food stamps, head start, after school programs, etc.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 11:03:51 AM »
One point I wanted to make is that the abortion controversy is pretty complicated, so we should be careful about attributing reasons for why people might oppose abortions.  Some people are undoubtedly so stupid and/or ignorant that they just haven't thought about it and are repeating arguments they've heard.

Other people, I'm sure, want to punish women for daring to treat sex as anything other than a way to get pregnant.  Others have moral problems with the subject, or were taught to think a certain way about it.  And just plain old empathy plays a part too.  I'm sure there are other reasons too; I'm not trying to dismiss legitimate reasons here.

My point is that we shouldn't assume that people only have one reason for supporting or opposing abortion/birth control.  Take the punishment aspect.  I was really surprised when Wasserbuffel said that people who were willing to allow rape and incest exceptions for abortions were more likely to oppose abortions out of a desire to punish women for having sex.  But why would that be?  I can easily see someone who's opposed to all abortions, no matter what, wanting to punish women on top of "protecting the unborn", and seeing that as a way to have their cake and eat it too.  Whereas someone who was willing to allow those exceptions might very well have enough empathy to realize that punishing the victim of a crime by forcing her to carry the child of her rapist to term is cruel and unusual[1].  And so on and so forth.

Or take Jag's point about people who think life is sacred and who think that protecting the lives of the unborn justifies murder.  It's exactly those sorts of positions that should be contradictory but that aren't that cause most of the problems with the abortion controversy.
 1. not that there haven't been plenty of cultures which did that - my point is that them having the empathy to realize that this is wrong is better than them not having it

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 11:06:14 AM »

at least we buy our own birth control rather than going to Congress like Sandra Fluke to get them to force other people to pay for it.   lol

I hope your birth control never fails.  If you like having sex as much as I do it is likely.  But with a twisted worldview and callous attitude like yours you should definitely not reproduce.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 11:54:18 AM »
Quote
I do have to point out that a lot of people (I suspect most, though I don't have the data to show this) who oppose abortion oppose it under any circumstances, including rape and incest.  The allowance of rape and incest exceptions have largely been due to pro-choice advocates fighting tooth and nail to make some headway against ignorant attitudes regarding sex and pregnancy.  So you might want to be a little more careful about making assertions such as this

I've met very few that see things that way. Almost every pro-life person I've met with in real life and online has believed in making the exception, but I don't think I made the mistake of saying all or even most pro-lifers are this way. My apologies if I gave the impression that I think they do. 

In Dr. Troll's is one that does, he hedges in cases of rape or incest. You can see it in his rhetoric, he doesn't give a damn about people, born or unborn, he just wants to control women and punish them for being sexual creatures.  There are many others like him too.




Offline Jag

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Re: Facts about abortion
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 12:06:56 PM »
@LPA: It may or may not already be too late. He may or may not already have a wife and he may or may not have two children, both daughters. He's taken all these positions at various times already.

I'm just giggling at his continued posting after being schooled so completely on every topic he's posted in. He's pretty resilient, and he's making plenty of points to support my position. He may be a willfully ignorant idiot, but he's showing everybody who reads it just how incoherent his position really is. I might even collect his various remarks into a stand-alone post on why it's pointless to talk to a willfully ignorant theist about this topic - they're so rarely interested in actual solutions, they don't even understand why the policy position they claim is so obviously built on a lie - what "problem" are they trying to solve?
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.