Author Topic: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!  (Read 977 times)

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Offline MM747

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2013, 07:05:18 PM »
False Christians are out in full force these days. They are like wolves in sheep's clothing.

Their mouths say Jesus but their hearts say Satan.

Hey Skeptic54768,

So from your experience then would you say that it's mainly false Christians that are acting like this, alienating friends and family who don't share their beliefs?

And then to take this a step further, could I assume that if the friends and family that I mentioned here were true Christians, then they would continue to surround themselves with Atheists like myself?

Finally, from my example then, where do we go from here? Do I stay away from them because they are false Christians? Or perhaps point it out to them in hopes that they spend more time with me because I am an Atheist? If they were true Christians, what would/should they do?

And sorry to MM747 for going off topic. It's hard to ignore fallacious thinking.

No worries. Such is the nature of things.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 07:33:48 PM by MM747 »
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.
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Offline MM747

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2013, 08:05:55 PM »
...

I think it's pretty clear why your cousin stopped talking to you, however.  I'm not going to defend Christianity (which I think is a total joke or I would not be here),and I loathe the idea of "missions" (since we all know that bibles don't help feed starving kids, for one thing); but if it's obvious she is a dedicated xtian going on a mission - your efforts to dissuade her and say you would only support her if she went on a volunteer effort that YOU approved of smacks of condescension.  Which is your prerogative of course. But you shouldn't feign shock that she would quit speaking to you after pulling that.  :laugh:

I think its more along the lines of, a family member asks you to borrow money. You don't feel comfortable lending it to them but offer other ways of helping. Your relationship goes on. A christian family member asks you for money for a mission trip. You don't feel comfortable lending it to them...etc etc. However, unlike before, now your relationship ends.
I wouldn't say it's a matter of feigning shock. It's a matter of complete and utter disbelief. There are no boundaries with this type of hypocrisy it seems. 

To me it reads like this:
C - Can I have $10 to help the kids in South America?
A - Yes sure you can. What charity are you going through?
C - XYZ Christian Ministries.
A - I don't feel comfortable with their vision. However, I will help you if you donate through XYZ group.
C - In that case no thanks.
A- So you would rather not help the children in South America if the work will be done by a none Christian group? Check.

Quote
As to your other friends, well if all they want to talk about is church, then you're probably better off not talking to them anyway. I'm sincerely sorry about that - it sucks to lose a friend.

Sounds like it's time to meet some new friends!

Lol...easier said than done. The first example was not a surface level friendship from high school or that sort of thing. We're talking about 20 years of ups and downs. You don't let those friends fall by the wayside. Which is why this type of thing is so strange and unsettling. It seems to me that it is a cult-like behavior that finds strength in indoctrination and isolation.

As for new friends, yes of course. Such is life. I think I just liken losing a friend to Christianity to having a friend in a coma. You can stand by their side, waiting for them to recover or they will eventually die off. It's the helplessness, uncertainty, and unresponsiveness, that I find so frustrating.
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Offline RubyLeo

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2013, 08:52:39 PM »
...

I think it's pretty clear why your cousin stopped talking to you, however.  I'm not going to defend Christianity (which I think is a total joke or I would not be here),and I loathe the idea of "missions" (since we all know that bibles don't help feed starving kids, for one thing); but if it's obvious she is a dedicated xtian going on a mission - your efforts to dissuade her and say you would only support her if she went on a volunteer effort that YOU approved of smacks of condescension.  Which is your prerogative of course. But you shouldn't feign shock that she would quit speaking to you after pulling that.  :laugh:

I think its more along the lines of, a family member asks you to borrow money. You don't feel comfortable lending it to them but offer other ways of helping. Your relationship goes on. A christian family member asks you for money for a mission trip. You don't feel comfortable lending it to them...etc etc. However, unlike before, now your relationship ends.
I wouldn't say it's a matter of feigning shock. It's a matter of complete and utter disbelief. There are no boundaries with this type of hypocrisy it seems. 

To me it reads like this:
C - Can I have $10 to help the kids in South America?
A - Yes sure you can. What charity are you going through?
C - XYZ Christian Ministries.
A - I don't feel comfortable with their vision. However, I will help you if you donate through XYZ group.
C - In that case no thanks.
A- So you would rather not help the children in South America if the work will be done by a none Christian group? Check.

Quote
As to your other friends, well if all they want to talk about is church, then you're probably better off not talking to them anyway. I'm sincerely sorry about that - it sucks to lose a friend.

Sounds like it's time to meet some new friends!

Lol...easier said than done. The first example was not a surface level friendship from high school or that sort of thing. We're talking about 20 years of ups and downs. You don't let those friends fall by the wayside. Which is why this type of thing is so strange and unsettling. It seems to me that it is a cult-like behavior that finds strength in indoctrination and isolation.

As for new friends, yes of course. Such is life. I think I just liken losing a friend to Christianity to having a friend in a coma. You can stand by their side, waiting for them to recover or they will eventually die off. It's the helplessness, uncertainty, and unresponsiveness, that I find so frustrating.

OK - regarding the mission trip/borrowing money - you made an excellent point.  I hadn't thought of it that way, and I stand corrected. And we are 100% in agreement on the hypocrisy!

Next - regarding friendships.  I didn't mean to come across as blase' about that. People you have known that long, you're right - that is not something you can just "replace."  I am very curious about their "brand" of christianity - it certainly does sound "cult-like" from what you describe!

Are they all members of the same kind of church?

I am trying to establish new friendships as well - not that my xtian friends are obnoxious, they aren't - but I really love talking about the kinds of things discussed here.  And also, I have a LOT to learn.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  Oh, and if you don't mind my asking, how long have they been part of the "churchy" thing?  If it's relatively new - usually that initial religious euphoria decreases in time....

One can hope, right?  :)


"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline MM747

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2013, 09:58:05 PM »

...

Are they all members of the same kind of church?

Not sure actually. They all go to different churches. I think my cousin in born again.

Quote
I am trying to establish new friendships as well - not that my xtian friends are obnoxious, they aren't - but I really love talking about the kinds of things discussed here.  And also, I have a LOT to learn.

Yeah me too. Sharpens the blade so to speak.

Quote
Thank you for taking the time to explain.

No worries. I think it's more of an exercise for me anyway, to make sure I'm accurately describing my thoughts and ideas. I feel as though there are times when I say something and get a response to a question or a thought which I didn't actually raise.  :) Not in this instance but you understand what I mean.

Quote
Oh, and if you don't mind my asking, how long have they been part of the "churchy" thing?  If it's relatively new - usually that initial religious euphoria decreases in time....

I believe they all had exposure to the church from childhood. Which, if I'm correct consisted of regular weekly visits. This was especially true with my cousin who, even from childhood, actively participated in 'youth camp.' But I would say that they all had a sort of renaissance within the last two years.

I suppose then it wasn't simply them 'discovering the church/god' maybe it was more of a 'my life is crap' sort of situation and nothing has improved in the last 10 years...so why not go back to church. Eh?



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Offline RubyLeo

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2013, 10:54:08 PM »

...

Are they all members of the same kind of church?

Not sure actually. They all go to different churches. I think my cousin in born again.

Quote
I am trying to establish new friendships as well - not that my xtian friends are obnoxious, they aren't - but I really love talking about the kinds of things discussed here.  And also, I have a LOT to learn.

Yeah me too. Sharpens the blade so to speak.

Quote
Thank you for taking the time to explain.

No worries. I think it's more of an exercise for me anyway, to make sure I'm accurately describing my thoughts and ideas. I feel as though there are times when I say something and get a response to a question or a thought which I didn't actually raise.  :) Not in this instance but you understand what I mean.

Quote
Oh, and if you don't mind my asking, how long have they been part of the "churchy" thing?  If it's relatively new - usually that initial religious euphoria decreases in time....

I believe they all had exposure to the church from childhood. Which, if I'm correct consisted of regular weekly visits. This was especially true with my cousin who, even from childhood, actively participated in 'youth camp.' But I would say that they all had a sort of renaissance within the last two years.

I suppose then it wasn't simply them 'discovering the church/god' maybe it was more of a 'my life is crap' sort of situation and nothing has improved in the last 10 years...so why not go back to church. Eh?

You had me at "born again" and "youth camp" ---> two of the scariest phrases in the English language.

I somewhat sympathize with the "my life is crap" thing - in that, I hit a very rough patch and tried to "get back to god" a few years ago. However, it didn't stick, because I think my mind had matured to the point where I just could not force myself to believe anymore.  Faith just wasn't enough. It sounds great, but when you scratch the surface, it's just too ridiculous to believe. I know, I'm preaching to the choir (pun intended).

I guess what I'm saying is that I hope that at least one of your friends figures this out sooner than later so that you can enjoy a real friendship again, rather than one based on "can I share the love of christ with you" moments...

(Side note, regarding accurately describing thoughts: hard to do in a forum situation - we lack the benefits of body language, tone, and inflection.  You did fine, I was reading in a hurry and jumped to a conclusion. I also wish to work on getting my thoughts across adequately)


 
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2013, 10:59:50 PM »
It doesn't matter what the Catholic Church's interpretation of the bible is.

You might be ignorant of Christian history.
The earliest Christians had no Bible.
And who was responsible for this bible of yours?  Who compiled it?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2013, 11:05:33 PM »
Of course they receive answered prayers. Satan does that for you.
And he doesn't do that for you?  To make you think that you're worshiping the true god?

Quote
Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2013, 02:47:47 AM »
I have a best mate, a work mate, and a younger cousin (20) who are all Christian.
Each became heavily involved in their respective church.
I think it is probably important to remember that it is not you that changed.
They have decided to take the path they have and have therefore created the situation.
You have tried to remain friends but just don't want the religion for yourself.
As long as you have kept the door open for the future there may not be much more you can do.

as Nick said
Quote
Someday, if they are lucky, they may break free of the delusion and approach you for forgiveness.

Regarding Skeptic- be prepared for pages of discussion that will basically say we are all being decieved by demons and satan, and only skeptic and about 2% of the population will ever get to heaven. &)

"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2013, 03:47:43 AM »
Of course they receive answered prayers. Satan does that for you.
And he doesn't do that for you?  To make you think that you're worshiping the true god?

Quote
Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.

In another thread, I asked him this: he still hasn't responded.

It would be a very good trick by a demon, to create an allegedly holy book that convinced billions over thousands of years to do things a certain way - if I was a clever demon, I'd write a book that, on the face of it, appeared to be a Good Book, but included within it one or two hell-guaranteeing passages that the believers would accept and try to justify, precisely because the rest of the book seemed so damn plausible - pun intended.

So I'll ask again - how do I tell that the Bible is not the work of a demon?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Zankuu

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2013, 01:16:49 PM »
I'm just happy to know Satan and his demons are healing all these dogs and horses.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Jag

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2013, 01:48:15 PM »
^^^Ironic, isn't it? The evil one provides the healing - yet he's still the evil one, although I can't see how. The good guy demands the worship  - yet he did not providing the healing after promising to do so.

What a messed up system. No wonder it sounds so incoherent from the outside. This is some seriously ugly SPAG.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2013, 02:09:26 PM »
Even jeezus doesn't try to use skep's logic.... In Matt 22:25- he answers those who claim he drove out demons by the power of demons and makes the comment about a house divided against itself not standing.  Skeplogic is a reach, at best...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2013, 07:00:25 PM »
Even jeezus doesn't try to use skep's logic.... In Matt 22:25- he answers those who claim he drove out demons by the power of demons and makes the comment about a house divided against itself not standing.  Skeplogic is a reach, at best...

Well yeah, I already quoted that verse. That verse shows that Satan can not cast out Satan because then Satan would be divided against himself.

That's how we know we are following the One True God.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »
Even jeezus doesn't try to use skep's logic.... In Matt 22:25- he answers those who claim he drove out demons by the power of demons and makes the comment about a house divided against itself not standing.  Skeplogic is a reach, at best...

Well yeah, I already quoted that verse. That verse shows that Satan can not cast out Satan because then Satan would be divided against himself.

That's how we know we are following the One True God.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2013, 07:13:07 PM »
Even jeezus doesn't try to use skep's logic.... In Matt 22:25- he answers those who claim he drove out demons by the power of demons and makes the comment about a house divided against itself not standing.  Skeplogic is a reach, at best...

Well yeah, I already quoted that verse. That verse shows that Satan can not cast out Satan because then Satan would be divided against himself.

That's how we know we are following the One True God.

This is a common trick used by con artists. Pretend to betray one of your own to lure your enemy. Any self respecting demon would know this trick.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 07:15:16 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2013, 07:18:02 PM »
This is a common trick used by con artists. Pretend to betray one of your own to lure your enemy. Any self respecting demon would know this trick.

Where do you get your knowledge of demons?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2013, 07:19:58 PM »
Well yeah, I already quoted that verse. That verse shows that Satan can not cast out Satan because then Satan would be divided against himself.

It also shows that your false god cannot cast out itself. Ergo, your false god is Satan.

That's how we know we are following the One True God.

No; you're not. I am one of the true gods of the multiverse. I was the first, in fact. I am currently overseeing this universe. If you want to worship a true god, worship me. You can also worship Astreja or Odin, if you'd like. I really don't care either way. You'll die long before my Plan for this universe is complete.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Jag

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2013, 07:24:53 PM »
That verse shows that Satan can not cast out Satan because then Satan would be divided against himself.

But God can sacrifice himself to himself and that's not a division at all. In fact it's so much not a division that he did it again into a third. But it's all one God.

Sure, that totally makes sense.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2013, 07:26:51 PM »
This is a common trick used by con artists. Pretend to betray one of your own to lure your enemy. Any self respecting demon would know this trick.

Where do you get your knowledge of demons?

Ooh, oohooh, I bet from a book! Just like you!
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2013, 07:31:04 PM »
This is a common trick used by con artists. Pretend to betray one of your own to lure your enemy. Any self respecting demon would know this trick.

Where do you get your knowledge of demons?

From horses, where do you get yours? From dogs?

There is no difference. Whatever you can argue for one you can argue for the other.


« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 08:05:48 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline MM747

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2013, 11:59:26 PM »
I have a best mate, a work mate, and a younger cousin (20) who are all Christian.
Each became heavily involved in their respective church.
I think it is probably important to remember that it is not you that changed.
They have decided to take the path they have and have therefore created the situation.
You have tried to remain friends but just don't want the religion for yourself.
As long as you have kept the door open for the future there may not be much more you can do.

Good point. From the sound of things, others aren't experiencing this either. I guess I'll just see where it leads.
Cheers

Quote
as Nick said
Quote
Someday, if they are lucky, they may break free of the delusion and approach you for forgiveness.

Regarding Skeptic- be prepared for pages of discussion that will basically say we are all being decieved by demons and satan, and only skeptic and about 2% of the population will ever get to heaven. &)

Yeah true, I suppose it's just a matter of sunk cost.

As for skeptic...looks like he is struggling to keep up at the moment.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.
Marcus Aurelius

Offline neopagan

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2013, 08:51:50 AM »

As for skeptic...looks like he is struggling to keep up at the moment.

Maybe we should pray for him... or fart?  Take your pick.  :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2013, 11:47:04 AM »
Well yeah, I already quoted that verse. That verse shows that Satan can not cast out Satan because then Satan would be divided against himself.
That's how we know we are following the One True God.

It would be a very good trick by a demon, to create an allegedly holy book that convinced billions over thousands of years to do things a certain way - if I was a clever demon, I'd write a book that, on the face of it, appeared to be a Good Book, but included within it one or two hell-guaranteeing passages that the believers would accept and try to justify, precisely because the rest of the book seemed so damn plausible - pun intended.

So I'll ask again - how do I tell that the Bible is not the work of a demon?

Like Foxy said, that's just the kind of thing a clever demon would put in his made-up holy book.  Big the non-existent Jesus up, claim the made-up Jesus is more powerful than Satan. 

Then gullible people like yourself come along, read the book, and think "wow, this Jesus existed AND is better than Satan - I'd better do everything this book tells me to do.

And because you think like that, you accept without question the things that the demon slipped into the book that will guarantee you not getting to heaven.

I'll ask yet again, Skeptic: how do I tell that the Bible is not the work of a demon, given that you cannot use the Bible as proof precisely because of the scenario I have described?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Convert, Donate, or Get out of the way!
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2013, 10:04:32 PM »
On the topic of missionaries, I have pretty strong and inconsistent opinions.

I do not approve of people trying to convince others that they should give up their own religion (or language, clothing, family structure, food preferences, etc.) in favor of some belief from another culture. I especially don't like it if the new religion is being introduced by a wealthy, powerful country with political influence over the foreign government. This is colonialism, pure and simple, and is as evil as it gets

The people involved in the mission activity don't see it this way, of course, and only think they are helping the poor down trodden. They are just bringing food and medicine, building a school, or opening a community center. Or leading a youth camp.  :o

But they are still part of a neo-colonial enterprise. The local people usually have no say in the matter, often because they really do need the help, and have to accept the religion along with it.[1]

They are almost as harmful as the missionaries who fought to convert the souls of people in the Americas centuries ago. I say almost, because at least they don't infect the locals with smallpox or measles and wipe out 90% of them.

Now having said all that, I want to add that I have worked with foreign missionaries in Africa and Latin America. Usually, the local people are Catholics and are being missioned at by various sects of Protestants. The Catholics don't have to mission-- they are pretty entrenched in most third world countries already.  I have hung out with missionaries because they bring news from the outside world, along with Cheez Whiz and other foreign delicacies. They usually have plenty of money to spend. ;)

And I try to explain, gently as I can, that they can help people without trying to make them change their faith. Also, I have informed them of the past colonialism that resulted in the people having the faith they now do. I have found many of them to be very receptive, because the people who go on missions are often the more adventurous-minded folks of their churches.
 1. In Muslim countries, Christian officials told hungry women they could have a bag of rice for their families-- only if they take off their headscarves and accept a bible, too. That is evil.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.