Author Topic: a conversation with Dr Troll  (Read 1424 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2013, 08:47:20 PM »
Canada seems like a two city country.  You basically live in the sticks outside of Toronto and Montreal. 

That is why we call it the 51st state.  We do provide them a free military, they don't even have one.  lol   that is why like 50 percent of their tax revenue can go to their "awesome" public healthcare option with no other options.  lol

http://forces.ca/en/home

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline DrTesla

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2013, 08:48:12 PM »
i get kind of giddy late at night sometimes.

i blame it on my epilepsy condition.   Google "juvenile myoclonic epilepsy"

If it's making your posts even more embarrassing than usual, then perhaps you should refrain from posting in the late evenings.

what is the reputation?   1860's stuff?   lol  might want to update your history books some.

It's still pretty conservative, no?

I'd rather live in SC than Canada.   No offense.  I like warm weather and beaches.

Fair enough.

And a private healthcare system, until recently.   lol

If you want a lighter wallet, that's your perogative.

yeah what is wrong with conservative.  You like big government ,  high taxes?  You obviously like abortion. 

You are paying more for your healthcare than you would be in a private system.  Paying out the behind in taxes for it.  Then I think you also end up buying supplemental insurance as well, for things not covered by the awesome Canadian government. 

Mark Steyn is a cool dude.  If all Canadians were like him, you woudl have something up there.  lol
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2013, 08:51:37 PM »
You here that Azdgari, if you had a Conservative Republican Christian (American) country, DT would be up there with you.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline DrTesla

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2013, 08:52:03 PM »
It's my  understanding that in Canada, that you cannot criticize Muslims at all, or they try to put you in jail.  I think they were trying to imprison Mark Styen for awhile.  Not sure where that is now.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Online Jag

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2013, 08:52:13 PM »
Jag

If you can't understand why irreducible complexity is a problem for Darwins, and some of you even deny IC exists in lifeforms,   you don't understand much of anything.

Clueless child, you have no idea what I do and do not understand. Your entire visit to this community has been an ongoing demonstration of your inability to read, comprehend, or present a sensible argument for any position you've taken on any topic you've tried to discuss. Spend more time worrying about the gaps in your knowledge - I neither need nor want anything you could offer in the way of understanding.

Side note to community at large: Can we find a new theist to talk to? I'm getting bored with this repetitious one.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2013, 08:53:16 PM »
yeah what is wrong with conservative.

The anti-knowledge attitude.

You like big government ,  high taxes?  You obviously like abortion.

I like fiscal responsibility.  Conservatives have had a lot of trouble with that concept in recent history.

You are paying more for your healthcare than you would be in a private system.  Paying out the behind in taxes for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita
Total per-capita spent on health care in America is twice what ours is.  You're wrong.

Here's the test of character, though:  Will you change your mind in light of new knowledge?  An honest man would do so.  You...well, you've had some problems in that area, havn't you?

Then I think you also end up buying supplemental insurance as well, for things not covered by the awesome Canadian government.

Some things are still private, yes.  Like dental work.  Just like in America.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2013, 08:54:37 PM »
It's my  understanding that in Canada, that you cannot criticize Muslims at all, or they try to put you in jail.  I think they were trying to imprison Mark Styen for awhile.  Not sure where that is now.

Congratulations, DT you are the most smited person on this website, and it only took you 3'weeks where for others took months to years to even make the list. I'm not even on the list so that's a feat in of itself.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Azdgari

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2013, 08:55:05 PM »
It's my  understanding that in Canada, that you cannot criticize Muslims at all, or they try to put you in jail.  I think they were trying to imprison Mark Styen for awhile.  Not sure where that is now.

As someone who's criticized Muslims, and heard plenty of other people criticizing Muslims, here in Canada, I can attest from experience to this being false.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2013, 08:55:43 PM »
You here that Azdgari, if you had a Conservative Republican Christian (American) country, DT would be up there with you.

It'd still be too cold for him.  He's fragile.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline DrTesla

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2013, 08:56:07 PM »
Given Canadians are Obama fan boys,  or would be if they lived here,  I don't see how you can say liberals/socialists like you in Canada care about fiscal responsibliy.  Obama has spent an historic amount of money and has increased our debt exponentially.  All in the name of stimulating the economy and the economy has sucked for 5 straight years.   It like a trillion dollars per job for like 100 jobs in  5 years.   lol   

Your idea of fiscal responsibliy is taxpayers balancing greedy irresponsible leftwing politicians' bloated budgets.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2013, 08:59:36 PM »
You'd prefer faith, of course.

Some of you act like being an atheist somehow makes you knowledgeable of science and intelligent.   

Why do you care what other believe about the afterlife or origine of life, etc?  You act like it is almost criminal if somebody believes in God.

Well, I do know more about science because I haven't spent most of my life shaking in my boots about the afterlife and instead used that time to read and otherwise study all manner of scientific research. Though not a scientist myself, I've had relatives and good friends who were chemists, physicists, archaeologists, geologists, biologists, medical researchers and a few other fields. They educated me and inspired me to learn more about their various fields so that I could have intelligent conversations with them, and so that I could learn. Not having a head full of Jesus does wonders for the intellect. (It also helps that I don't have a TV set nor a love of movies, dancing, rock music, sports or video games.)

I think it is generally true that we don't actually care what others think about the afterlife or origins. Except when they use that as an excuse to stone us to death or try teaching our kids pure sh*t in school. Or when they try to take over the country with using imagined religious guidelines as instructional material rather than observation, rationality and logic. Who else would vote for a stupid person except a religion person? Our current congress is evidence that that might be true.

If religion had anything good to offer mankind, I'd say something nice right about now.

The good thing about engineering majors is the professors can't politicize them like the liberal arts majors and some of the science majors like biology.   You guys were probably forced to build monuments to Darwin as your school project.  then you got the global warming propaganda and the other liberal / Democrat propaganda.   Probably watched Brokeback Mountain in every class including your remedidal math classes.   lol

Where did you do your learning? Stereotypes-R-Us? Is it really that important that you be wrong about everything? 

It doesn't' surprise me that you're an engineer. Especially a mechanical one. No wonder you are so hung up on things being frickin' designed. Any connection? Methinks there is a big one. While I have all the respect in the world for the other engineers in the world, it is not unusual for engineers to have narrow points of view outside of their chosen field. Some of the most ardent theists I've known were brilliant engineers. Otherwise they were idiots. I don't' know what it is about an engineer that causes some of them to think funny.

By the way, the only theory of evolution you understand is your own. You haven't demonstrated that you understand even one thing about the real theory.

Of course, now that I know you're an engineer, I understand the whole thread. As the old joke goes, "Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a few hours, you realize that he likes it."

Canada seems like a two city country.  You basically live in the sticks outside of Toronto and Montreal. 

That is why we call it the 51st state.  We do provide them a free military, they don't even have one.  lol   that is why like 50 percent of their tax revenue can go to their "awesome" public healthcare option with no other options.  lol

You guys love false info don't you. The highest tax rate in Canada (for the rich folks) is 29%, and they do pay for their health insurance separately. A family of two pays $96 per month. Of course, since you're an engineer, you know for a fact that the 7% or so of their annual income that Canadians pay for health care is far far more than the 17%+ that Americans pay. If you figure in the exchange rate and stuff.

Gee I wish I was smart as you. And I will be someday. When I die.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2013, 09:03:10 PM »
You here that Azdgari, if you had a Conservative Republican Christian (American) country, DT would be up there with you.

It'd still be too cold for him.  He's fragile.

True, true.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2013, 09:05:02 PM »
Given Canadians are Obama fan boys,  or would be if they lived here,  I don't see how you can say liberals/socialists like you in Canada care about fiscal responsibliy.  Obama has spent an historic amount of money and has increased our debt exponentially.  All in the name of stimulating the economy and the economy has sucked for 5 straight years.   It like a trillion dollars per job for like 100 jobs in  5 years.   lol   

Your idea of fiscal responsibliy is taxpayers balancing greedy irresponsible leftwing politicians' bloated budgets.

Actually, compared to all former Presidents he's actually lessened government not made it bigger.

If only you were smart enough to learn.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline DrTesla

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2013, 09:15:58 PM »
Well first of all,  most of the reason for high healthcare costs in America are generated by government regulations, like preventing people from buying insurance out of state.   So it isn't a free market like people claim it is.  The government actually made it illegal to give doctors in hospitals a bonus for increasing efficiency and lookgin for ways to reduce costs.   Liberal lawyers are also allowed to bring friviolous malpractice lawsuits against doctors and this increases healthcare costs.

But I think the comparisons b/t Canada and America's healthcare costs per person are not accurate.   I don't think healthcare costs per capital one is showing the taxes that Canadians pay for the public option. 

Also there is a lot of rationing in Canada and the government has a monopoly on the services that they do cover.  You hvae to go thru the government to get that medical care.  Thus you will wait longer for medical treatment.    There is also a lot of cronyism in the system as well connected people can get access to better care than lower income people. 
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline DrTesla

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2013, 09:19:24 PM »
If you voted for Obama,  you voted for a stupid person.  I mean, the man spent the last 4 years talking about how a family of 4 would see their healthcare premium go down 2500 dollars.   He also said if you like your company plan you could keep it.

Both are egregious lies or  he is an idiot.  I think it is combination of both. 

You are not stupid if you think Darwin's theory is dumb as hell.  Random mutations cannot lead to the complexity found in lifeforms.    It is basic logic.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2013, 09:27:26 PM »
Well first of all,  most of the reason for high healthcare costs in America are generated by government regulations, like preventing people from buying insurance out of state.   So it isn't a free market like people claim it is.  The government actually made it illegal to give doctors in hospitals a bonus for increasing efficiency and lookgin for ways to reduce costs.   Liberal lawyers are also allowed to bring friviolous malpractice lawsuits against doctors and this increases healthcare costs.

But I think the comparisons b/t Canada and America's healthcare costs per person are not accurate.   I don't think healthcare costs per capital one is showing the taxes that Canadians pay for the public option. 

Also there is a lot of rationing in Canada and the government has a monopoly on the services that they do cover.  You hvae to go thru the government to get that medical care.  Thus you will wait longer for medical treatment.    There is also a lot of cronyism in the system as well connected people can get access to better care than lower income people.

In our country you have to go through a frickin' clerk at an insurance company, who decides whether you live or die. And delayed care? How about my father. Diagnosed with prostate cancer, his doctor said he should get a testosterone shot (I think that's what it was) to slow down the grown of the tumor. The earliest they could get him in for the shot was three months later.

In those three months his cancer exploded. They didn't know that when he got his shot, which took five minutes. But they did some more test that day and found out he was a dead man. His doctor later said he really regretted not doing something to get may father in for the shot sooner.

We didn't sue. Because it would have made a lawyer rich.

And don't blame liberal lawyers for all the lawsuits. All lawyers, liberal or conservative, ride that gravy train. How else they gonna get the funds to run for congress.

Oh, and by the way. Your opinion on Canadian health care? Just an opinion. There are numbers that show otherwise.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline DrTesla

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2013, 09:31:06 PM »
Well first of all,  most of the reason for high healthcare costs in America are generated by government regulations, like preventing people from buying insurance out of state.   So it isn't a free market like people claim it is.  The government actually made it illegal to give doctors in hospitals a bonus for increasing efficiency and lookgin for ways to reduce costs.   Liberal lawyers are also allowed to bring friviolous malpractice lawsuits against doctors and this increases healthcare costs.

But I think the comparisons b/t Canada and America's healthcare costs per person are not accurate.   I don't think healthcare costs per capital one is showing the taxes that Canadians pay for the public option. 

Also there is a lot of rationing in Canada and the government has a monopoly on the services that they do cover.  You hvae to go thru the government to get that medical care.  Thus you will wait longer for medical treatment.    There is also a lot of cronyism in the system as well connected people can get access to better care than lower income people.

In our country you have to go through a frickin' clerk at an insurance company, who decides whether you live or die. And delayed care? How about my father. Diagnosed with prostate cancer, his doctor said he should get a testosterone shot (I think that's what it was) to slow down the grown of the tumor. The earliest they could get him in for the shot was three months later.

In those three months his cancer exploded. They didn't know that when he got his shot, which took five minutes. But they did some more test that day and found out he was a dead man. His doctor later said he really regretted not doing something to get may father in for the shot sooner.

We didn't sue. Because it would have made a lawyer rich.

And don't blame liberal lawyers for all the lawsuits. All lawyers, liberal or conservative, ride that gravy train. How else they gonna get the funds to run for congress.

so you want to give government a monopoly on healthcare?  What happens if you don't like their policies.  Who do you go to then?   Our system allows you to switch insurance companies if you don't like your current one. 

Anybody who thinks Obama has put in place a competent system after this sorry website that they put out (they had 3 years to get this ready)  is smoking something. 

The government never reduces costs, it increases costs. and that is wh ymost Americans are paying much more for premiums,  why many Americans are losing their company plans or even their jobs as costs go up,  and why people who prefer to self insure  will be punished for that decision even though they can pay their own costs.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2013, 09:47:51 PM »
So, DrTesla never bothered to answer my question of how old he thought I was.  Well, I'll say it anyway - 35.  Yep, I stopped being a 'kid' a long time ago.

Honestly, his attitude about college sounds a lot like mine when I was 20.  Boring classes where all you do is listen to stuffy lectures and regurgitate whatever you tried to learn verbatim.  It took me years to shed that attitude and figure out that what you get out of college depends on what you're willing to put into it.  Doesn't sound like he's gotten that far yet, though - and thus thinks spending the time to learn about something he doesn't already know is a waste of time.  That certainly explains the way he acts here, and why he complains because of post length and such.  I'll bet that's why he likes creationist/intelligent design arguments, because they're not something you have to actually learn.  They come, prepackaged, in neat little chunks, easy to figure out and spit back out when needed.

But that's why they're worthless.  Learning just isn't that tidy.  Science depends on stuff in the real world, which is quite messy and almost never has simple, straightforward answers (unlike the sound bites that pass for news today, and other things along those lines).  Simple answers never do a good job of explaining things, which is why simple ideas like irreducible complexity and intelligent design, for all the fervor with which their advocates present them with, simply aren't up to the task of countering established scientific theories, whether it's evolution or other things.  In fact, the reason they're kept so simple is because they're false.  The more complicated a falsehood gets, the harder it is to keep track of, and the easier it is to spot the holes.

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2013, 09:49:25 PM »
That makes me sad. You're younger than me. :'(

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline DrTesla

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2013, 09:54:59 PM »
So, DrTesla never bothered to answer my question of how old he thought I was.  Well, I'll say it anyway - 35.  Yep, I stopped being a 'kid' a long time ago.

Honestly, his attitude about college sounds a lot like mine when I was 20.  Boring classes where all you do is listen to stuffy lectures and regurgitate whatever you tried to learn verbatim.  It took me years to shed that attitude and figure out that what you get out of college depends on what you're willing to put into it.  Doesn't sound like he's gotten that far yet, though - and thus thinks spending the time to learn about something he doesn't already know is a waste of time.  That certainly explains the way he acts here, and why he complains because of post length and such.  I'll bet that's why he likes creationist/intelligent design arguments, because they're not something you have to actually learn.  They come, prepackaged, in neat little chunks, easy to figure out and spit back out when needed.

But that's why they're worthless.  Learning just isn't that tidy.  Science depends on stuff in the real world, which is quite messy and almost never has simple, straightforward answers (unlike the sound bites that pass for news today, and other things along those lines).  Simple answers never do a good job of explaining things, which is why simple ideas like irreducible complexity and intelligent design, for all the fervor with which their advocates present them with, simply aren't up to the task of countering established scientific theories, whether it's evolution or other things.  In fact, the reason they're kept so simple is because they're false.  The more complicated a falsehood gets, the harder it is to keep track of, and the easier it is to spot the holes.

How does science depend on something.  It isn't a person. 

This can be summed up as "It's Science, you guys.  duh"  You sound like a Miss America contestant wandering aimlessly in search of a coherent thought.

Jaime, I made a comment about you on the abortion thread.  You are gonna love it. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 09:57:46 PM by DrTesla »
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Boots

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2013, 10:17:39 PM »

How does science depend on something.  It isn't a person. 

Science depends on honesty, for one.  You go into scientific inquiry with a hypothesis and honestly test it.  If the data shows your hypothesis wrong, you discard or change it.  You don't go out of your way to create instances where your hypothesis will be indicated correct.  Based on your previous posts, I for one am not surprised you don't get this.

Quote
This can be summed up as "It's Science, you guys.  duh"  You sound like a Miss America contestant wandering aimlessly in search of a coherent thought.

Based on your previous posts, you wouldn't recognize a coherent thought if it slapped you in the chops.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2013, 10:24:11 PM »
How does science depend on something.  It isn't a person.
I wish I could say I was surprised you didn't get this.  I had kind of hoped that the fact that science depends on evidence and observations would have sunk in by now.

Quote from: DrTesla
This can be summed up as "It's Science, you guys.  duh"
This your new catchphrase?  Yeah, not impressed, especially since you're just showing how ignorant you are.  As usual.

Quote from: DrTesla
You sound like a Miss America contestant wandering aimlessly in search of a coherent thought.
Well, given how difficult a job you have being coherent, I'm not surprised you have difficulty recognizing it in others.

Quote from: DrTesla
Jaime, I made a comment about you on the abortion thread.  You are gonna love it.
Why should I care?  I'm not watching that thread to begin with.  If you have something to say to me, say it to me, rather than making gloating comments like this that show off the way you really think and act, rather than the pretense you're putting up here.

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2013, 10:38:47 PM »
Jaime,

I think he said that all your comments about science is copy/pasted from Wikipedia. Just like all his "science" questions are copy/pasted from Creationist websites. Basically, he insulted you by comparing you to him.

-Nam
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2013, 10:47:08 PM »
I think he said that all your comments about science is copy/pasted from Wikipedia. Just like all his "science" questions are copy/pasted from Creationist websites. Basically, he insulted you by comparing you to him.
I don't actually copy/paste unless I'm quoting something.  I do use Wikipedia - it's a useful site to check information I already knew - but not in the way he was trying to claim.

Just lame attempts at insults.  I guess he was hoping that I'd be flustered by them and lose my cool.  I suppose if I were plagiarizing from Wikipedia as he seems to think I was, I might get a bit flustered, but the fact is that I am very good at picking stuff up quickly and then incorporating the information into my posts.  I suppose I do probably take on the tone of what I read to a degree, which is probably why he seems to think that it points to copy/pasting from Wikipedia.

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2013, 10:51:04 PM »
I think he said that all your comments about science is copy/pasted from Wikipedia. Just like all his "science" questions are copy/pasted from Creationist websites. Basically, he insulted you by comparing you to him.
I don't actually copy/paste unless I'm quoting something.  I do use Wikipedia - it's a useful site to check information I already knew - but not in the way he was trying to claim.

Just lame attempts at insults.  I guess he was hoping that I'd be flustered by them and lose my cool.  I suppose if I were plagiarizing from Wikipedia as he seems to think I was, I might get a bit flustered, but the fact is that I am very good at picking stuff up quickly and then incorporating the information into my posts.  I suppose I do probably take on the tone of what I read to a degree, which is probably why he seems to think that it points to copy/pasting from Wikipedia.

Yeah, I think I like screwy's new name for him: hillbilly.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline screwtape

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2013, 11:13:21 PM »
Well first of all,  most of the reason for high healthcare costs in America are generated by government regulations,

That is untrue.  Time magazine recently did a whole issue where they analyzed hospital costs.[1] They all come from a guide book called the chargemaster.  They are not based on anything and are just sort of legacy. Essentially, hospitals, pharma and device manufacturers charge extremely high prices because they can.  If you need a medicine, you need it.  If you need a new hip, you need it.  And you are not able to shop around for it. 

Evidence of this is the relatively random cost for the same treatment at different hospitals. If their business models were all good, the prices should be in the same ball park.  They aren't
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/hospital-prices-cost-differences_n_3232678.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/business/hospital-billing-varies-wildly-us-data-shows.html?_r=0

The only way to successfully negotiate prices is through a big buyer, like insurance or medicare. Or the government. There is no way market forces can ever have any effect.

It has very little to do with regulations.

So it isn't a free market like people claim it is.

?  who claims it is?   Nobody.  And it shouldn't be.  Free markets only work in very specific situations.  Health care is not one of them.  the supplier holds all the cards.

The government actually made it illegal to give doctors in hospitals a bonus for increasing efficiency and lookgin for ways to reduce costs.

?  cite a source or stfu.

Liberal lawyers are also allowed to bring friviolous malpractice lawsuits against doctors and this increases healthcare costs.

Just the liberal ones?  Or can conservative ones do it too?  And are they allowed to bring legit lawsuits?  or are they only allowed frivolous ones?  And what exactly is a frivolous lawsuit?  In a rather timely coincidence, we learn avoidable medical mistakes are estimated to kill 440,000 people a year.[2]

But I think the comparisons b/t Canada and America's healthcare costs per person are not accurate.   I don't think healthcare costs per capital one is showing the taxes that Canadians pay for the public option. 

Whether it is taxes or insurance, we pay more.

Also there is a lot of rationing in Canada

As if there isn't here too. 4 month wait to see a dermatologist. 

You hvae to go thru the government to get that medical care.

oh, the horror!  The Horror! 

Thus you will wait longer for medical treatment.

non-sequitur

There is also a lot of cronyism in the system as well connected people can get access to better care than lower income people.

are you serious?  this is exactly what we have now.

 1. May 4, 2013. the article is behind a paywall, but here is a review
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/23/steven-brills-26000-word-health-care-story-in-one-sentence/
 2. http://www.nbcnews.com/health/when-docs-make-mistakes-should-colleagues-tell-yes-new-paper-8C11498661
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2013, 11:45:31 PM »
Well first of all,  most of the reason for high healthcare costs in America are generated by government regulations, like preventing people from buying insurance out of state.   So it isn't a free market like people claim it is.  The government actually made it illegal to give doctors in hospitals a bonus for increasing efficiency and lookgin for ways to reduce costs.   Liberal lawyers are also allowed to bring friviolous malpractice lawsuits against doctors and this increases healthcare costs.

But I think the comparisons b/t Canada and America's healthcare costs per person are not accurate.   I don't think healthcare costs per capital one is showing the taxes that Canadians pay for the public option. 

Also there is a lot of rationing in Canada and the government has a monopoly on the services that they do cover.  You hvae to go thru the government to get that medical care.  Thus you will wait longer for medical treatment.    There is also a lot of cronyism in the system as well connected people can get access to better care than lower income people.

In our country you have to go through a frickin' clerk at an insurance company, who decides whether you live or die. And delayed care? How about my father. Diagnosed with prostate cancer, his doctor said he should get a testosterone shot (I think that's what it was) to slow down the grown of the tumor. The earliest they could get him in for the shot was three months later.

In those three months his cancer exploded. They didn't know that when he got his shot, which took five minutes. But they did some more test that day and found out he was a dead man. His doctor later said he really regretted not doing something to get may father in for the shot sooner.

We didn't sue. Because it would have made a lawyer rich.

And don't blame liberal lawyers for all the lawsuits. All lawyers, liberal or conservative, ride that gravy train. How else they gonna get the funds to run for congress.

so you want to give government a monopoly on healthcare?  What happens if you don't like their policies.  Who do you go to then?   Our system allows you to switch insurance companies if you don't like your current one. 

Anybody who thinks Obama has put in place a competent system after this sorry website that they put out (they had 3 years to get this ready)  is smoking something. 

The government never reduces costs, it increases costs. and that is wh ymost Americans are paying much more for premiums,  why many Americans are losing their company plans or even their jobs as costs go up,  and why people who prefer to self insure  will be punished for that decision even though they can pay their own costs.

Hey, it sounds like you're almost right about something. I agree that the health plan Obama had to settle for (thanks to the republican house) sucks a big one. But you, as an engineer, should know that people can't solve problems by disagreeing on what the problem is and then coming up with a plan that satisfies no one. It never works.

I was smart enough to never support George Bush. Obama lost me with the drones and NSA crap. Of course, he's only the president. Even George "Shrub" Bush said that the president isn't really all that powerful. The money guys appear to control most everything.

Sadly, we can't have a decent conversation about this because you have proven yourself very Shrub-like in the intellectural prowess department, and I would never know whether to believe you or not. But hey, at least you got to press a lot of buttons for awhile. I'll bet you're proud of yourself.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Nam

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2013, 11:51:16 PM »
I wish he'd take me off ignore and press my "buttons"--i could have some real fun! Screwtape's getting all the fun. :'(

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Boots

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Re: a conversation with Dr Troll
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2013, 08:09:15 AM »
If you can't understand why irreducible complexity is a problem for Darwins, and some of you even deny IC exists in lifeforms,   you don't understand much of anything.

You STILL have yet to show an IC system.  Every time you try, it's been blown apart.
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