Author Topic: Greetings  (Read 1477 times)

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 02:02:30 PM »
WB - I totally relate to and understand the childfree position.  I never intended to have children but caved to conformity and a shark jumping attempt to save a hopeless marriage and had a son when I was 36.  Now I am in a situation where I can barely take care of myself, let alone a kid so I am not only ruining my life and future but his as well.  Even though I love my son with all my heart if I had had the courage to stand my ground and not have him this horror would not be occurring.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Nam

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2013, 10:49:01 PM »
Welcome WB. I have not been on here long myself but already feel part of it all.
I too look forward to reading your input on the threads.
Enjoy :D

That Nam dude -- sscccaarryyy.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Nam

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2013, 10:50:44 PM »
WB - I totally relate to and understand the childfree position.  I never intended to have children but caved to conformity and a shark jumping attempt to save a hopeless marriage and had a son when I was 36.  Now I am in a situation where I can barely take care of myself, let alone a kid so I am not only ruining my life and future but his as well.  Even though I love my son with all my heart if I had had the courage to stand my ground and not have him this horror would not be occurring.

Think of me in your life on a daily basis (in person and online) -- your life just got better.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Fiji

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2013, 03:00:11 AM »
Hello and Welcome Wasserbuffel,
I'm the token European around here (Actually, haven't got the foggiest how many Europeans we have ... "not a lot" is probably a good aproximation)
But I'm definitely the only Belgian!
Which brings me to the following question ... whence the German username?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2013, 08:43:33 AM »
Welcome WB. I have not been on here long myself but already feel part of it all.
I too look forward to reading your input on the threads.
Enjoy :D

That Nam dude -- sscccaarryyy.

-Nam
sscccaarryyy or just reaching out for more love and hugs?
you know you love it ;)
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2013, 08:56:16 AM »
Quote
I never intended to have children but caved to conformity and a shark jumping attempt to save a hopeless marriage and had a son when I was 36.  Now I am in a situation where I can barely take care of myself, let alone a kid so I am not only ruining my life and future but his as well.  Even though I love my son with all my heart if I had had the courage to stand my ground and not have him this horror would not be occurring.

Situations like yours are exactly what people ignore when they spout off and pressure those who don't want kids into having them.  To them it's all supposed to be rainbows and butterflies, but they don't stop to think that a person who really doesn't want to raise a child will probably not be fulfilled by doing so. Not only will this cause them problems, but the child will suffer too.

It's also part of the reason I'm vocal about it. I want to be an example to those around me that a fulfilling life can certainly be lived without kids.  I want my nieces to know that they have value in themselves whether they have kids or not, nephews too, but again it's not as big an issue for a man.  I had no CF adults to look up to, and had to go it alone against everything and everyone telling me otherwise.  I was very glad of the support of CF online communities.

Quote
whence the German username?

In 8th grade my school required us to take foreign language. (In 7th we were exposed to each of the choices.) Along with several of my friends I chose German.  Early on we used our dictionaries to choose nicknames. We chose words we thought were fun to say. One friend was Ausländer (we didn't know enough to know it only meant foreigner, not extraterrestrial), another was Kartoffel (potato).  We liked both wasserbuffel and wassermelone (watermelon), but since I was tall and rail thin at the time we figured naming me for a broad, stumpy waterbuffalo would be much funnier.

The name stuck, and even throughout high school I signed all my assignments as Wasserbuffel instead of with my name.  When my family got internet for the first time, and when choosing a username for my first email account, I went with the nickname I was already using.  I really should have spelled it wasserbueffel, since the word has an umlaut over the U, but I hadn't learned that yet.  It works well enough, though, as I very rarely can't get the username I want without adding numbers.

Now I must ask, if you're the resident European, why named for an island in the Pacific?

Offline Boots

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2013, 09:17:24 AM »
Welcome, WB.

Allow me to say that I'm always impressed with folks who chose not to have children, for what I arrogantly call "The Right Reasons" (or, rather, who refrain from having children for "The Wrong Reasons").  My wife is a teacher, and I constantly hear stories about students whose parents don't give a rat's arse about what's happening in their kids' lives, and I can't help but think "then why the phluck did you ever have kids?!?!"

My wife and I deliberated for 2 years before we decided we actually wanted children, then we waited a few more before we decided we were "ready," despite my Roman Catholic family continually asking "soooooo, when are you two going to start having kids???"  We had multiple discussions on our parenting philosophies, and decided that since they were compatible we would make a good team.  We agreed early on that we would never undermine each other's parenting, and would only bring up disagreements NOT in front of the kids--and we've been almost 100% successful with that.  We also decided that we wanted kids so that we could try to make the world a better place for the future, by instilling our paltry wisdom and as open-thinking as we could manage--and not because it was expected of us.  If any of these discussions hadn't turned out satisfactory answers, we'd have not had children.

so, I salute you.  *salut*  <--pronouncing that SALOO of course

even though my opinion is worthless, I opine you're doing the right thing.  :-)
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2013, 10:04:24 AM »
Hi, WB, welcome.

I've been childfree all my life, but I haven't very often received any static about it.  It cropped up occasionally when I was younger, of course -- typical breeder-bingo "you'll change your mind when you get older" garbage -- but now that I actually am older, it doesn't seem to come up anymore.  The last time I remember someone getting on me about it was when I was 34, although she was actually pretty polite about asking me about it, unless most breeders.

It's becoming more acceptable these days to be childfree, but as you say, some people, especially women, still get flak over it.  When I first met the woman who would later become my girlfriend, for example, she told me that she was also childfree and had never met anyone else, until me, who was the same way, and she said she was constantly getting crap over it from family and friends, which led to her also becoming part of the CF movement (although she later left it for unrelated reasons).

Stick to your guns.  It's becoming increasingly acceptable to be CF, and eventually, with any luck at all, people will finally shut the hell up about.  :-)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2013, 11:15:54 AM »
Quote
My wife and I deliberated for 2 years before we decided we actually wanted children, then we waited a few more before we decided we were "ready," despite my Roman Catholic family continually asking "soooooo, when are you two going to start having kids???"  We had multiple discussions on our parenting philosophies, and decided that since they were compatible we would make a good team.  We agreed early on that we would never undermine each other's parenting, and would only bring up disagreements NOT in front of the kids--and we've been almost 100% successful with that.  We also decided that we wanted kids so that we could try to make the world a better place for the future, by instilling our paltry wisdom and as open-thinking as we could manage--and not because it was expected of us.  If any of these discussions hadn't turned out satisfactory answers, we'd have not had children.

I salute you as well, you and your wife went about it the "right" way. Putting thought and deliberation into your decision rather than just becoming parents just because it's expected of you.  Because you want them is really the only good reason to have kids.


Pianodwarf,

You're right, it is becoming more acceptable now, but it's still not overly common.  The questions are still asked, "When/how many kids?" instead of "Are you planning on kids?".  I don't think "You'll change your mind" will go away anytime soon.

Parents aren't necessarily even exempt from the "you'll change your mind" bingo.  My younger sister got it when she was about to have her tubes tied. She already had two kids with her ex husband and was adopting out the one she was pregnant with when she made the decision to be sterilized. The doctor seriously asked her if she was sure about it, because "what if something happens to one of your other kids?" 

Offline Jag

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2013, 11:22:15 AM »
Not trying to focus entirely on the CF choice but it's an interesting topic, so I'm gonna.  :angel:

I really don't know if the pressure to reproduce is common everywhere or if it's largely a US phenomenon. Anyone from other continents or countries who can speak for their part of the world?

Also, is the pressure truly related to religion, or is it just a knee-jerk answer for most people due to our culture (which admittedly is heavily influenced by religion). Is it even possible to separate the two and still have a valid answer? Maybe this should go into a thread of it's own...

My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Nam

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2013, 11:37:07 AM »
Welcome WB. I have not been on here long myself but already feel part of it all.
I too look forward to reading your input on the threads.
Enjoy :D

That Nam dude -- sscccaarryyy.

-Nam
sscccaarryyy or just reaching out for more love and hugs?
you know you love it ;)

Ick.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2013, 11:41:14 AM »
, OMFG,THEY MAKE GOLD AND SILVER CRAYONS!!

I see this as the best reason yet for being a temporary Christian. Welcome.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2013, 12:53:10 PM »
Quote
I really don't know if the pressure to reproduce is common everywhere or if it's largely a US phenomenon. Anyone from other continents or countries who can speak for their part of the world?

I know people from around the world who identify as CF.  No Kidding has chapters in Canada and New Zealand as well as the US.

I think pressure to reproduce is actually stronger in many other countries. Women in many countries face social stigma and abuses just for being infertile, never mind choosing not to have kids in such a culture! 

Even in the US, women of color have a harder time gaining acceptance and choosing to be CF. The social pressure for Latinas especially is enormous. Hell, even whites are pressured to make babies by racists thinking it's the end of the world if brown people begin to outnumber them. They try to be subtle about it, and it's more common in the south, but the do it none the less.

As educational rates for women rise in a country birthrates drop, women have fewer kids and the number who have none will increase too.

Quote
Also, is the pressure truly related to religion, or is it just a knee-jerk answer for most people due to our culture (which admittedly is heavily influenced by religion). Is it even possible to separate the two and still have a valid answer? Maybe this should go into a thread of it's own...

I think the two can definitely be separated, and still have a valid answer.  There are a lot of pressures that are religion based, but I think more of it is cultural. One common bingo is that parenting is "the most important job in the world".  Think of how many advertisements you see for attractions and events that describe them as "family friendly" which actually means "for those with small children friendly".  How many pop culture magazines track "baby bumps" of celebrities? Grocery stores occasionally providing parking stalls for "new and expecting mothers" (why not new fathers?). All these are secular examples of society elevating parenthood over non-parenthood, and there are plenty more.

Offline Jag

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2013, 01:12:12 PM »
^^^Thank you for the additional insights.

I recognize the secular pressures you identified. I was just thinking that if pushed, people might be surprised at their actual reasons for believing that baby-making is a given. Reasons that wouldn't be the first that come to mind on the topic, more what they would think if they, well, actually stopped and thought about it. It's really difficult for me to isolate cultural assumptions from religious assumptions - I know some of what influences my thinking but certainly can be surprised by realizations about my positions on things. Sometimes it turns out to be leftover from beliefs or opinions that I no longer hold, and sometimes it turns out to be complete crap based on nothing whatsoever.

Advertising is all about the money and doesn't really reflect the values of individuals so much as it reflect what advertisers want from consumers. I have a love-hate attitude toward marketing. I find the psychology behind it absolutely fascinating (if extremely manipulative and somewhat evil) while simultaneously being horrified at how well it often works. Marketing tells us what to think and far too often we blindly agree.

I'm mostly just speculating. I have no stake in this and it's not my experience so any opinion I have is purely speculative. I can waste days on end contemplating people's motivations based on their behaviors and actions. It's a good way to avoid the homework I should be doing as well, so I best get back at it.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Fiji

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2013, 02:51:14 PM »
Now I must ask, if you're the resident European, why named for an island in the Pacific?

Well, when I was in the second year of middleschool[1] our Dutch/English/history/religion teacher had a leave of absence because of a distended abdomen and inflamation of the mammary glands due to infection with a chimeric tumor ... ie. she was pregnant. So, we got a substitute for History and religion (the other two subjects were reassigned internally). And OF COURSE we just had to have a bit of a go at her. Nothing mean, mind you. A staple in such circumstances is to change names. This being a Catholic school, we had easy access to bibles. What better place to find peculiar names.
However, while we knew about the endless list of begats ... none of us knew where exactly they were located ... and this was that dark and mystical time in human history known as "before Google"[2]
After discarding the names we couldn't pronounce ourselves and the names that were too common we actually ran out of names (or rather, the will to trudge through any more of the damn bible). What other book 12/13 year olds have easy access to could contain peculiar names. The Atlas of course[3]! And that's how I ended up as Fiji. And, like you, I kept using the name, partially because I wasn't too fond of my actual name at the time. And, when Al Gore finally got around to inventing the Internet[4] I too used the name as a UID/handle/nick.
And since we appear to be on a forum on the subject of religion ... Fiji happens to be the promised land of the Cat people from Red Dwarf that Dave Lister will lead them to. ;)
 1. which translates to eighth grade on your side of the pond, right?
 2. hell, it was before Internet even
 3. staying with the topic of ancient flight of fancy
 4. yes, yes, I know
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2013, 02:57:41 PM »
Quote
Advertising is all about the money and doesn't really reflect the values of individuals so much as it reflect what advertisers want from consumers. I have a love-hate attitude toward marketing. I find the psychology behind it absolutely fascinating (if extremely manipulative and somewhat evil) while simultaneously being horrified at how well it often works. Marketing tells us what to think and far too often we blindly agree.

True, and that's why I specified that these were ads for attractions and events, which tend toward more of an announcement of what's available than an ad for a consumer product might. Farmer's markets, malls, historical sites. My boss does some advertising, and despite knowing me he gets stuck in the "family friendly" thought process. Once I had to stop him from calling a river "family oriented".  How exactly does a river orient itself around the needs of canoeing families, it's a river!  He ended up saying it was fun for all ages instead.

Quote
I was just thinking that if pushed, people might be surprised at their actual reasons for believing that baby-making is a given. Reasons that wouldn't be the first that come to mind on the topic, more what they would think if they, well, actually stopped and thought about it.

This is a really good thought, and just as valid a question for parents to answer as non-parents. I think a lot of it has to do simply with the rather recent availability of effective contraception and independence for women (it's been less than 100 years since we gained the right to vote in the US).  My own mother is only a few years older than the birth control pill. Even with effective contraception there are accidental pregnancies, both of my sisters have had pregnancies while on BC.

Society still hasn't caught up to these developments in a lot of ways. Being just a generation removed from those whose choice in the matter was little more than non-existent, it's not surprising people don't really give their assumptions much thought.

When I was a little girl there was never any indication that it was a choice. My sisters and I were given dolls to play with. All the adult women in my world were mothers, or if they were young teachers expected to be. In school sex ed classes birth control was used to prevent pregnancy until you're ready.  Anything interesting or worldly was "something to tell your kids about".

Having not had a very strong religious background, I know my assumptions were cultural.

Quote
I'm mostly just speculating. I have no stake in this and it's not my experience so any opinion I have is purely speculative. I can waste days on end contemplating people's motivations based on their behaviors and actions. It's a good way to avoid the homework I should be doing as well, so I best get back at it.

You do have a stake though! Your opinions and experience are just as valid as mine here. What assumptions regarding parenthood have you grown up with? Do you have kids?  If you do, what were your reasons? If not, what is your plan, and the reasons behind it?  (I suppose we might need a new thread!)

To have kids or not is one of the most important decisions of our lives, and affects every aspect. Raising kids is a huge commitment of time, energy, emotion, and money. It's also permanent[1], unless you screw up royally and get your kids taken away. For a woman there are permanent changes to your body, and - although it's less common - there is a risk of death with pregnancy. Your relationships with your partner (marital happiness takes a deep downturn while children are in the home, and swings back up once they leave), family, friends, and coworkers will be different depending on your choice. Where you live will be influenced by school districts, and how many bedrooms you need. Even the car you buy will be influenced. Kids will bring home lots more germs to get you sick with more colds etc., and you'll have less leave time from work (assuming work) because some will have been used to take care of sick kids instead of sick you.


 1. I'm assuming parenting here, not giving it up for adoption.

Offline Dr H

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2013, 02:59:37 PM »
What the hell is with all the "I love you's" lately. I hope you people are joking 'cause that shit's sick. Next thing you know you'll be calling me by my birth name.


Your birth name?

Jesus?  Is that really you, son?

 ;D
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Offline Benny

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2013, 03:07:35 PM »
sscccaarryyy or just reaching out for more love and hugs?
you know you love it ;)

DID SOMEBODY SAY LOVE AND HUGS I GOT HERE AS FAST AS COULD DID I MISS ANYTHING
I'm here every now and again.
We're gonna rock down to Alexis Avenue, he makes the score go higher!

Offline neopagan

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2013, 03:12:07 PM »
What the hell is with all the "I love you's" lately. I hope you people are joking 'cause that shit's sick. Next thing you know you'll be calling me by my birth name.


Your birth name?

Jesus?  Is that really you, son?

 ;D

This should be a whole (<=== auditory pun alert) new thread - Nam's birth name!
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2013, 03:13:37 PM »
Fiji,

Fun how similar our stories are. You're right, second year of middle school is eight grade over here. Locally we used to call our middle schools "junior high", and the transition happened between my 7th and 8th grade years. So I actually went to both a Jr. High and a Middle School, even though they were the same school.

I remember the list of endless begats when I was reading the bible, I'll admit I skimmed that portion once I cottoned on to what was happening (mostly that it wasn't about to end).

Ah, I remember the days before Google, what a backward time it was!  ;)

Offline neopagan

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2013, 03:19:14 PM »
I remember many a cold and lonesome night spent spent roaming dusty, dank corridors in the college libraries BG[1].  It was virtually impossible to find copies of Sports Illustrated swimsuit editions back then!   ;)
 1. Before Google
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2013, 04:22:25 PM »
What the hell is with all the "I love you's" lately. I hope you people are joking 'cause that shit's sick. Next thing you know you'll be calling me by my birth name.


Your birth name?

Jesus?  Is that really you, son?

 ;D

Yes, it is. I'm an american, born an' raised.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Dr H

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2013, 05:01:53 PM »
What the hell is with all the "I love you's" lately. I hope you people are joking 'cause that shit's sick. Next thing you know you'll be calling me by my birth name.


Your birth name?

Jesus?  Is that really you, son?

 ;D

Yes, it is. I'm an american, born an' raised.

-Nam

As Ma Ferguson is alleged to have said, ""If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me."

And American English, no less.  :)
Dr H

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Online Mrjason

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2013, 07:18:12 AM »
And since we appear to be on a forum on the subject of religion ... Fiji happens to be the promised land of the Cat people from Red Dwarf that Dave Lister will lead them to. ;)

Heretic  >:( What happened to Fuchal? Next you'll be telling me the people who serve at the Temple of Food wear BLUE hats.

Anyways, welcome Wasserbuffel.

Offline SnagDaddyQ

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2013, 02:51:38 PM »
Well this is going to sound ridiculous, but can anyone tell me how to start a new topic please?

Offline Dante

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2013, 02:58:04 PM »
Well this is going to sound ridiculous, but can anyone tell me how to start a new topic please?

I think you have to have a minimum number of posts prior to starting a new one. 3 is the magic number.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.