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Online Nam

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Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« on: October 19, 2013, 05:06:00 PM »
The base will be King James Version, since most know it above most others (though NIV is quite popular).

1. Matthew 10:34

(KJV)
Quote
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword.

So, the clear interpretation, to me, is: "You think it was bad before, wait 'til I start killing people with my sword." -- literal translation. Figurative translation would be: "Death will be brought upon you, not Life".

2. Matthew 10:34

(ERV)
Quote
Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble[1].
 1. in their notes they state that "sword" and "trouble" are synonyms; the same thing

See the slight difference in the last word? "Sword" is used for killing, fighting, etc., that's what they are meant for. The use of "trouble" waters down that. "Trouble" can have many interpretations, definitions, etc., that have nothing at all to do with killing, or fighting, really it's up to the reader what it actually means. But when someone mentions "trouble" in context with "not peace" that also can not mean violence that results in injury or death. People make trouble all the time. Look at what the Republicans did in the US recently: they caused a lot of "trouble" that had no real result of violence of any kind. But if they brought "swords" in context, people would automatically think physical violence.

I've heard many times by Christians that it doesn't change the meaning. That sounds to me as if the Bible was rewritten, even slightly, to say something else, and in this case: something less violent.

That's just one passage, imagine an entire book of SPAG.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline William

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2013, 05:12:57 PM »
That sounds to me as if the Bible was rewritten....

What would a real god do about this problem? :?

Good post Nam.
Git mit uns

Online Nam

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2013, 05:14:01 PM »
That sounds to me as if the Bible was rewritten....

What would a real god do about this problem? :?

Good post Nam.

Piss on them?

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2013, 05:54:00 PM »
I don't think it's just Christians who would disagree with your interpretation.

The point of that phrase - and it's illustrated in Mat 10:35-36 - is that Jesus' teachings are divisive, and will set even members of the same household against one another. This is supported by a very similar passage in Luke, likely of the same root origin (Luke 12:51-53) which doesn't use "sword" but rather refers to "division". So the notion that "I came not to bring peace but a sword" is metaphor is, on the face of the available data, more reasonable than the interpreted implication that Jesus would himself start setting about with an actual edged weapon.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 05:57:19 PM by Deus ex Machina »
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Offline Lectus

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2013, 06:06:46 PM »
The interpretation of these words is that Jesus will bring division in families. Because those who accept him will be separated from those who don't.

At least that's how I see pastors preaching it.

They want you to come to the conclusion that it will be normal to have arguments inside of your family because of his name. And eventually you'll start forcing your family to accept Jesus too. Only then the fights will stop.

God's love is really weird, heh?
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline Nick

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2013, 06:10:26 PM »
Sword is so 1st century AD.  It should say AR-15 (MFs).
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Online Nam

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2013, 06:49:17 PM »
I don't think it's just Christians who would disagree with your interpretation.

The point of that phrase - and it's illustrated in Mat 10:35-36 - is that Jesus' teachings are divisive, and will set even members of the same household against one another. This is supported by a very similar passage in Luke, likely of the same root origin (Luke 12:51-53) which doesn't use "sword" but rather refers to "division". So the notion that "I came not to bring peace but a sword" is metaphor is, on the face of the available data, more reasonable than the interpreted implication that Jesus would himself start setting about with an actual edged weapon.

I know it's a metaphor. But when most Christians talk about the Bible--and these are the Christians I mention in the OP--they take the literal approach rather any other approach; mainly the only time they concede it's not literal is when they are attempting to guise their previous meaning.

Also, going by the previous line, it's basically in reflection of, "If you disobey me, I will send you to Hell." -- a "violent" response to the line above. Where it's true it's in "division", it's by violent means thus the use of "sword" (as most versions have) rather than a watered-down version such as "trouble" which does in fact change the meaning to be weaker than it actually is.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2013, 07:25:14 PM »
I know it's a metaphor. But when most Christians talk about the Bible--and these are the Christians I mention in the OP--they take the literal approach rather any other approach; mainly the only time they concede it's not literal is when they are attempting to guise their previous meaning.

I am not sure I have correctly understood what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Christians take the Bible literally except when it's clear to them that specific passages are allegory or metaphor - and therefore, it's okay to take something that's clearly metaphor and interpret it literally anyway?

Quote
Also, going by the previous line, it's basically in reflection of, "If you disobey me, I will send you to Hell." -- a "violent" response to the line above.

Again, I find myself unsure what you're referring to here. Have you moved outside of Mat 10:34-36? If not, I think you're reading way too much into a couple of sentences.

Quote
Where it's true it's in "division", it's by violent means thus the use of "sword" (as most versions have) rather than a watered-down version such as "trouble" which does in fact change the meaning to be weaker than it actually is.

I'm not really sure what your beef is. Controversial ideas are divisive; frequently violently so. And it's not restricted to "spiritual" ideas. The same was true when a bunch of English nobility and gentry decided that they'd had quite enough of absolute monarchy, when a bunch of American gentry decided that it wasn't acceptable for any states to permit slave-ownership, when some Prussian gentry got it into their heads that unifying the German-speaking world was the best idea ever (and couldn't let go of that idea for the next 125 years), and when some Russian politicians jumped on the notions written by a German guy in London about how it would be better if the workers owned the means of production and decided that it was a good vehicle by which to overthrow not only the Russian aristocracy but also any nascent democracy in the country. Ideas are dangerous. They're the most dangerous things humans have ever come up with, and they don't even have any tangible physical existence. They can entice people to perform the most wicked acts imaginable, and they can and do tear families and communities apart. In this, Jesus' teachings are in no different a category to any of these.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 07:30:20 PM by Deus ex Machina »
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Online Nam

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2013, 07:48:45 PM »
No, I am speaking of these Christians:

Quote
I've heard many times by Christians that it doesn't change the meaning.
-- as stated in the OP.  Now, since I am speaking about those I've come across, that does not encompass all Christians, since I haven't met them all.

Matthew: 10:33
Quote
But whosoever shall deny me[1] before men, him will I also deny before my Father[2] which is in heaven.
 1. Jesus
 2. Biblegod

So, deny Jesus he in return will deny you to Biblegod , who is in Heaven, thus you don't go to Heaven and the only other place to go to would be Hell, no?

And going with 35-36 makes it even more clearer in that those in the household who do not deny Jesus will be against those who do (and presumably each other since the "division" would not exclude such a premise--which wraps nicely with Luke 14:26).

Luke 14:26 (ERV)
Quote
If you come to me and will not leave your family, you can not be my follower. You must love more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters-even more than your own life!

Is quite different than the KJV which states you must "hate" them all. Loving less is not the same as hating. If you think they are the same, you're delusional.

They all link to each other. One states violence, the other is a watered-down version of that, taking away the violence.

Changing the meaning.

-Nam
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 07:56:24 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline magicmiles

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2013, 08:09:58 PM »

You say on the one hand:


1. Matthew 10:34

(KJV)
Quote
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword.

So, the clear interpretation, to me, is: "You think it was bad before, wait 'til I start killing people with my sword."

but then say, about the same verse in your next post:



I know it's a metaphor.

Do you think the reference to sword is literal or metaphorical, Nam? You seem confused. If we can clear that up perhaps we can make better sense of what you're trying to say.

Go on up you baldhead.

Online Nam

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2013, 08:18:03 PM »
Next line: Figurative translation would be: "Death will be brought upon you, not Life".

You see what I did there? I provided two variants: one literal, and one metaphorical. They're called examples, you moron.

-Nam
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 08:22:07 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Online Nam

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2013, 08:19:52 PM »
Oh, in case you don't know the definition of "figurative", it's: departing from a literal use of words; metaphorical.[1]

-Nam
 1. Google dict.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 08:21:32 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2013, 08:21:34 PM »
No, I am speaking of these Christians:

Quote
I've heard many times by Christians that it doesn't change the meaning.
-- as stated in the OP.  Now, since I am speaking about those I've come across, that does not encompass all Christians, since I haven't met them all.

Originally you said "Christians". Then you said "most Christians". Now you're qualifying further and saying it's Christians of your acquaintance.

Unfortunately, that qualification leaves us with little or nothing to discuss, because I know none of these Christians of your acquaintance, I suspect no-one else here does either, and whilst I am fairly confident that the Christians of my acquaintance would say that removing an old metaphor from the text doesn't significantly alter the meaning, in no sense do I recognise as applicable to them your apparent assertion that they would ever have read the line literally in the first place.

Quote
Matthew: 10:33

The doctrinal notion that people who don't believe in Jesus go to Hell is hardly some ground-breaking revelation.

Quote
Luke 14:36 {...} Loving less is not the same as hating.

The term "hate", however, exists in Luke but not in Matthew. So in this sense, Luke is using the more "violent" language. Whereas in the earlier example, Matthew contains the more "violent" language. So it's not as if one author is consistently more "violent" than the other - at least, in this case. Perhaps the difficulty in translating into modern English from dead languages invariably results in these kinds of situations where one translator will use one word or phrase that another translator doesn't consider appropriate? Perhaps both authors lapsed into passionate or "violent" language from time to time? After all, it's not as if the use of passionate, aggressive or combative language is all that uncommon in contemporary discourse...

Quote
If you think they are the same, you're delusional.

... is it?

Quote
They all link to each other. One states violence, the other is a watered-down version of that, taking away the violence.

Except that the sword/division difference is Mat/Luke, and the hate/love less difference is Luke/Mat. So did Luke take away one bit of violence, only to add another bit elsewhere?

Quote
Changing the meaning.

Or perhaps there was always some ambiguity in the meaning, which translators even today still struggle to resolve and convey. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill in your zeal to take issue with the passage, myself.
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Online Nam

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2013, 08:28:25 PM »
Deus,

And right after that line of "most Christians" I state "the ones in the OP" -- OP: Opening Post. I am only talking about the ones I have come in contact with, I haven't mentioned any others.

unfortunate choice of words removed.

Nam, you can do better than this

GB Mod


I'm ignoring the rest of your post since you can't get past that.

-Nam
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 06:55:14 AM by Graybeard »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 08:36:34 PM »
Deus,

And right after that line of "most Christians" I state "the ones in the OP" -- OP: Opening Post. I am only talking about the ones I have come in contact with, I haven't mentioned any others.

Your OP simply said "Christians", without qualification. It did not say "Christians I've met", or anything like that. Absent any qualification, that means Christians, generally. That your later post said "most Christians {...} the ones in the OP" was, on the face of it, meaningless, because your OP had - perhaps inadvertently - made a blanket, unqualified claim about Christians. Now it might be frustrating for you that you inadvertently misspoke yourself and that this has been the source of some confusion, but that's not really an excuse for intemperate, "violent" language...

Quote
Nam's unfortunate choice of words removed. GB Mod

...such as this, nor for down-marking my comment because of a situation you have created and are apparently uninterested in helping to clear up.

Quote
I'm ignoring the rest of your post since you can't get past that.

That is, of course, entirely up to you. I had hoped for a civil discussion. If that's not possible with you, I shall give you a wide berth in future. I have no interest in creating drama.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 06:56:31 AM by Graybeard »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2013, 09:12:24 PM »
Next line: Figurative translation would be: "Death will be brought upon you, not Life".

You see what I did there? I provided two variants: one literal, and one metaphorical. They're called examples, you moron.

-Nam

The way you worded your OP was confusing to me. But thankyou for the clarification. There was really no need for the insult.

However, you still seem to believe, whether literally by the sword or by some other means, that the OP verse refers to physical death. Its been pointed out to you that, contextually, it makes more sense to read that vesre to mean division. And in that case, the translation which uses the word 'trouble' does not change the meaning or water anything down.
Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2013, 09:51:24 PM »
Next line: Figurative translation would be: "Death will be brought upon you, not Life".

You see what I did there? I provided two variants: one literal, and one metaphorical. They're called examples, you moron.

-Nam

The way you worded your OP was confusing to me. But thankyou for the clarification. There was really no need for the insult.

However, you still seem to believe, whether literally by the sword or by some other means, that the OP verse refers to physical death. Its been pointed out to you that, contextually, it makes more sense to read that vesre to mean division. And in that case, the translation which uses the word 'trouble' does not change the meaning or water anything down.

No, I think it means violence as stated in my other comments. However, it could be interpreted figuratively or literally as death to one's soul, no?

It's not in me to retract insults, they're apart of "me", but I responded based on past conversations with you so, take that as you wish.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2013, 10:07:20 PM »
It seems to me that what you're taking issue with is that the newer translation challenges your understanding of the passage. It seems to me you prefer to make an accusation of 'watering down' than to seriously consider whether the newer translation simply conveys the intent of the passage in a more culturally relevant way.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2013, 10:13:12 PM »
Gonna have to side with MM and DeM here, Nam.  Sorry.

Though, it'd have been really great for our understanding if the original texts were written with the intent of speaking to humans of today...right, MM?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2013, 10:23:59 PM »
Gonna have to side with MM and DeM here, Nam.  Sorry.

Though, it'd have been really great for our understanding if the original texts were written with the intent of speaking to humans of today...right, MM?

Personally, I appreciate not having to learn Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. Those I know who have done so have found it very challenging.
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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2013, 10:29:26 PM »
Well that's just what I mean.  If a deity had meant to speak to us, surely it would have done so in our language, instead of a language it knew would go out of style and be subject to misunderstandings such as that which is the topic of this thread.

Clearly, we were not the audience in mind.  Kind of arrogant to think we were in the first place.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2013, 10:48:06 PM »
So, the bible should have been written by its original authors in English, ensuring nobody at the time understood itand nobody bothered to make copies? Or God should have prevented any language other than the biblical languages from prospering?

Your suggestions just seems to be a variety of the 'why can't God just make us believe' theme.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2013, 10:59:58 PM »
That sounds to me as if the Bible was rewritten....

What would a real god do about this problem? :?

Good post Nam.

Piss on them?

;)

-Nam

Would that be the using Freudian version of his sword?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2013, 11:49:36 PM »
So, the bible should have been written by its original authors in English, ensuring nobody at the time understood itand nobody bothered to make copies? Or God should have prevented any language other than the biblical languages from prospering?

Nah, just provided copies in multiple languages, languages of the future.  They needn't have been in book-form, a simple engraving in granite would do.  For that matter, a zapped-into-being copy as new languages drifted far enough from the old would have worked.

Your suggestions just seems to be a variety of the 'why can't God just make us believe' theme.

More of an "any existing god doesn't really want followers" sort of theme.  That, or it does and is really dumb.
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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2013, 12:04:49 AM »
Look, I'm not saying they don't mean the same basic thing (division), they do, but one version is more negative than the newer version. One version states absolute[1] a negative tone, the newer versions (and I'm only sampling from one because I am on a phone) are more nicer tones.  One uses "hate", the other uses "love less".

This is what I am talking about; not the overall meaning but the slight word changes to make something highly negative into something more positive.

If I am the only one seeing this--so be it.

-Nam
 1. probably not "absolute" in the definitive meaning
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2013, 12:41:36 AM »
Maybe you should change the thread title.

Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2013, 01:04:09 AM »
Maybe you should change the thread title.



Why? I talk about specific words and y'all interpret that to me talking about an entire; if I just put the word without the verse it wouldn't make sense. So, as in the OP I mentioned "sword" being changed to "trouble", and state it water's down the meaning, I explain that and still y'all are talking about the whole verse when I agreed (in at least two prior comments) what the whole of the verse meant, even with the changes.

"Sword" and "trouble" are not synonyms. "Hate" and "love less" are not synonyms. That's what I am talking about.

The revisions are taking negative words and making them sound more positive which changes the meaning; perhaps not of a basic whole but it does change the meaning.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Graybeard

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2013, 06:53:14 AM »
I don't think it's just Christians who would disagree with your interpretation.

The point of that phrase - and it's illustrated in Mat 10:35-36 -
The very fact that you disagree with Nam's version is proof, were proof needed, that the Almighty made a huge mistake at The Tower of Babel, as it is quite clear that He cannot express Himself properly and unambiguously in any known language. And then He has the bare-faced effrontery to tell us that if we do not obey that which we do not understand, He will send us to the Eternal Pits of Flame.

The further trouble is that people have pontificated about the meaning of every known Bible verse and created profitable Churches out of it. It seems that any man and his talking donkey can have a magic decoding ring and instantly "know" what the Invisible Friend meant.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2013, 07:11:55 AM »
So, the bible should have been written by its original authors in English, ensuring nobody at the time understood it and nobody bothered to make copies? Or God should have prevented any language other than the biblical languages from prospering?

Your suggestions just seems to be a variety of the 'why can't God just make us believe' theme.

If we look at some scientific texts that were written around the same time as KJV1611, we will see that, today, new words have been substituted for those in the original texts. However, the meaning is still clear and the experiments and results are as valid then as they are now.

The trouble with Biblical language is that everything depends upon the social mores and beliefs at the time. The language does change and so do words and meanings. However, there is no certainty that the new words will adequately convey the original intended meaning.

Nobody should have the slightest doubt that when a passage says “sword”, to a person in 1611 it meant sword and all the baggage that “sword” carried. When later generations feel that this is a little savage, they water it down in a way that is not done with scientific texts.

Thus religion evolves slowly but the unacceptable thing is that this is denied. Instead of saying, “Yes, that’s what God meant then, this is what he means now.” The apologist will simply tell lies – “That is what God always meant.” … and thus is history rewritten.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 08:10:39 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”