Author Topic: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?  (Read 481 times)

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« on: October 18, 2013, 01:37:33 AM »
This is something that really perplexes me. With lunatics like Michelle Bachmann saying that Obama is a sign of the end times, I have been thinking about what Jesus said in regards to his return. Many Christians expect that he will be back pretty soon. Of course, Christians have had this mindset since the first century.

When we look at what Jesus says about his return, it is quite clear that he intended to come back very soon, and that this would apparently signal the end of the world. As in, during the lifetime of those who were his followers originally. Here are some quotes allegedly attributed to Jesus (thanks to Biblegateway for easy access to this nonsense in many forms)

Mark 9:1
New International Version (NIV)
9 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Luke 9:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

Mark 13:30
New International Version (NIV)
30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 14:62
New International Version (NIV)
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Matthew 16:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”



This is from THE GOSPEL. This is allegedly Jesus talking to his direct followers. Let's ignore for convenience sake that the gospels were not written by their namesakes or by anyone who was an actual eyewitness to the events(which is what Christians do all of the time anyways). Can a Christian please explain how it is that things did not go down as Jesus said they would? I see a few possible options here:

1: Jesus was wrong.
2: Jesus was lying
3: Jesus was not really the son of God (which could also be the case in 1 and 2)
4: Jesus wasn't real
5: The gospels aren't accurate/reliable sources of the life/teaching/sayings of Jesus

Which option is it? And please spare me the usual “ You are taking it out of context/that isn't meant to be taken literally”  nonsense. You certainly take most of his claims to divinity, as well as claims of his miracles and John 3:16, literally.

How is it that Jesus did not return when he said he would? And if Jesus was wrong/lying about this, how can we take anything else that he says seriously, and what does this say about him as a prophet? Didn't Jesus warn against false prophets?

And if Jesus really was such an awesome prophet, why didn't he say things like "I will frequently appear on people's toast" or "You will see my face on the wall when tearing off old wallpaper"  or "I will be visible in the anal region of a dog in pictures posted on Facebook" or "A woman in Wales will see my bearded mug on the inside of the lid of a Marmite jar". I have to admit, that if Jesus had made predictions like these, that would have been damn impressive, first because they are very specific instead of hopelessly vague, and secondly, because such things have happened, and thirdly, because they would refer to thing/places yet unknown in Jesus' time.

So why is Jesus such a poor prophet that he cannot accurately predict his own return? And why did he not predict any of these alleged appearances of his? What good is a prophet who has no accountability, and what does this suggest as to his status as a deity?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Nick

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2013, 08:09:43 AM »
If He did return the Christians would just crucify Him again for not meeting their standards.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2013, 11:31:21 AM »
This is something that really perplexes me............... How is it that Jesus did not return when he said he would? And if Jesus was wrong/lying about this, how can we take anything else that he says seriously, and what does this say about him as a prophet? Didn't Jesus warn against false prophets?

This is from THE GOSPEL. This is allegedly Jesus talking to his direct followers. Let's ignore for convenience sake that the gospels were not written by their namesakes or by anyone who was an actual eyewitness to the events(which is what Christians do all of the time anyways). Can a Christian please explain how it is that things did not go down as Jesus said they would? I see a few possible options here:

1: Jesus was wrong.
2: Jesus was lying
3: Jesus was not really the son of God (which could also be the case in 1 and 2)
4: Jesus wasn't real
5: The gospels aren't accurate/reliable sources of the life/teaching/sayings of Jesus

Which option is it? And please spare me the usual “ You are taking it out of context/that isn't meant to be taken literally”  nonsense. You certainly take most of his claims to divinity, as well as claims of his miracles and John 3:16, literally.

If I were to put on my old Christian hat, I'd say that you were missing a 6th option, and that that option was that Jesus returned in the 1st century just as he and his followers said he would (I actually believed this and make arguments for this being the case, SMH). There is a whole camp of believers known as Preterists that hold this view. www.allthingsfulfilled.com has more on them.

Offline anthony_retford

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2013, 12:35:44 PM »
I vote for number 4.
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Offline bgb

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2013, 01:08:44 PM »
I was taught that this passage was fulfilled when Jebus had the transfiguration.
From bible gateway
Luke 9:28-36

New International Version (NIV)
The Transfiguration

28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

34 While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” 36 When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2013, 05:33:23 PM »
I bet the creators of biblegateway didn't think us heathens to be using it. I go there all the time.

I just wish they'd put Jewish, Muslim, JW, Mormon, Hindu etc., text there too.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2013, 07:47:48 PM »
And if Jesus really was such an awesome prophet, why didn't he say things like "I will frequently appear on people's toast" or "You will see my face on the wall when tearing off old wallpaper"  or "I will be visible in the anal region of a dog in pictures posted on Facebook" or "A woman in Wales will see my bearded mug on the inside of the lid of a Marmite jar". I have to admit, that if Jesus had made predictions like these, that would have been damn impressive, first because they are very specific instead of hopelessly vague, and secondly, because such things have happened, and thirdly, because they would refer to thing/places yet unknown in Jesus' time.

That would never have worked. Prophecies about Facebook would have meant nothing to a tenth century Christian. They would have just shut their Bibles and ignored it. The Bible had to keep going through history to get to this point. Remember that the printing press was developed to make the Bible easier for people to obtain. Most everything in the modern world today has come from Christianity.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2013, 07:55:14 PM »
And if Jesus really was such an awesome prophet, why didn't he say things like "I will frequently appear on people's toast" or "You will see my face on the wall when tearing off old wallpaper"  or "I will be visible in the anal region of a dog in pictures posted on Facebook" or "A woman in Wales will see my bearded mug on the inside of the lid of a Marmite jar". I have to admit, that if Jesus had made predictions like these, that would have been damn impressive, first because they are very specific instead of hopelessly vague, and secondly, because such things have happened, and thirdly, because they would refer to thing/places yet unknown in Jesus' time.

That would never have worked. Prophecies about Facebook would have meant nothing to a tenth century Christian. They would have just shut their Bibles and ignored it. The Bible had to keep going through history to get to this point. Remember that the printing press was developed to make the Bible easier for people to obtain. Most everything in the modern world today has come from Christianity.

That is wrong. Almost everything in the modern world has come from science. From people leaning on their own reasoning.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2013, 08:08:49 PM »
That is wrong. Almost everything in the modern world has come from science. From people leaning on their own reasoning.

It's based on the worldview that God created an orderly finely tuned universe for us to study. Christians understood this and decided to learn about nature.

Can you imagine if the universe was designed by the same people who design computers? The universe would end up crashing at random points, like a computer crashes randomly. Yikes!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline stuffin

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2013, 08:53:11 PM »
It's based on the worldview that God created an orderly finely tuned universe for us to study. Christians understood this and decided to learn about nature.
The universe is anything but orderly, think about meteor impacts, solar flares, black holes and closer to home there are earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis and especially floods. Plus, why did the Xians stop their learning about nature?


Quote
Can you imagine if the universe was designed by the same people who design computers? The universe would end up crashing at random points, like a computer crashes randomly. Yikes!
Yes, just like earthquakes, meteors and volcanic eruptions (think Pompeii). That was nothing like a computer crashing randomly.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 08:56:10 PM by stuffin »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2013, 09:01:08 PM »
It's based on the worldview that God created an orderly finely tuned universe for us to study. Christians understood this and decided to learn about nature.
The universe is anything but orderly, think about meteor impacts, solar flares, black holes and closer to home there are earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis and especially floods. Plus, why did the Xians stop their learning about nature?


Quote
Can you imagine if the universe was designed by the same people who design computers? The universe would end up crashing at random points, like a computer crashes randomly. Yikes!
Yes, just like earthquakes, meteors and volcanic eruptions (think Pompeii). That was nothing like a computer crashing randomly.

Could life exist without that stuff?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2013, 09:05:28 PM »
That is wrong. Almost everything in the modern world has come from science. From people leaning on their own reasoning.

It's based on the worldview that God created an orderly finely tuned universe for us to study. Christians understood this and decided to learn about nature.

Can you imagine if the universe was designed by the same people who design computers? The universe would end up crashing at random points, like a computer crashes randomly. Yikes!

People have succeeded nevertheless.

By the way the universe does crash at random points. They are called black holes.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2013, 09:21:13 PM »
Could life exist without that stuff?

Yes, what made you ask that question?
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2013, 03:15:47 PM »
That would never have worked. Prophecies about Facebook would have meant nothing to a tenth century Christian. They would have just shut their Bibles and ignored it. The Bible had to keep going through history to get to this point. Remember that the printing press was developed to make the Bible easier for people to obtain. Most everything in the modern world today has come from Christianity.
Would never have worked? Why not? Why does a prophecy have to be something easily predictable and necessarily vague to have meaning? It doesn't really matter that early Christians would not have understood it. If Jesus were who he was supposed to be, they would have taken his prophecies seriously, even if they didn't understand them. You know, mysterious ways and divine plan and all that crap.

Most everything in the modern world has come from Christianity? Do you really, seriously believe that? Are you that deluded? All of the advances in technology and ethics that have gotten us to this point are largely the result of science and secular means. God magic has given us nothing but war, racism, and misogyny.

And you of course made no attempt at all to address the main point of my post. Why did the promise of Jesus to return within the lifetimes of his followers not occur?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Why didn't Jesus return a long time ago?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 03:26:21 PM »

It's based on the worldview that God created an orderly finely tuned universe for us to study.
Evidence? Where is the fine tuning in solar flares, and gamma ray bursts? How is a star that becomes so unstable due to its own mass that it blows up, or collapses into a black hole, "fine tuned"? How are appendices that can explode and kill us, backs that are prone to injury, and birth defects evidence of a fine tuned, perfect for us universe? Ever hurt your back? I suggest you try it and tell me how we were "fine tuned" by a cosmic magician with a perfect plan. You know, once you can do anything other than scream and eat oxycontin and muscle relaxers like M&M's. 
Quote
Christians understood this and decided to learn about nature.
Where are all of these wonderful discoveries about nature due to Christianity? What has Christianity discovered that couldn't have been discovered without out? What has been discovered in spite of religion and its protests and burnings?

Quote
Can you imagine if the universe was designed by the same people who design computers? The universe would end up crashing at random points, like a computer crashes randomly. Yikes!
Evidence? Also, this is utterly irrelevant, as the the universe was not designed by anyone.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?