Author Topic: Loaves and fishes  (Read 1571 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Petey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 882
  • Darwins +11/-0
  • Gender: Male
Loaves and fishes
« on: October 17, 2013, 01:44:58 PM »
Not a true contradiction per se, but this still seemed like the most appropriate place to bring this up.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the stories are true, granting that Jesus magically multiplied the food, and the disciples were just as surprised the second time around as the first.  This still does nothing to address exactly how they were eating those fish.

First of all, where did these fish come from?  Who carries fish around with them for a snack?  Bread I can see, but fish???

The stories make it sound like they were whole fish.  How on earth would they prepare it?  Were there also people carrying filet knives with them, cleaning the fish as they magically multiplied?  Did they build a fire to cook it all?  Or were people just chomping into raw fish?

The author could have used any fruit, vegetable, or liquid, and it would have at least given the stories some semblance of believability.  As they are written, they are ludicrous entirely apart from the magical bits and bad character building.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
-– Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10339
  • Darwins +180/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2013, 01:47:10 PM »
Jesus would never do that today.  He would call them all freeloaders.  Bitch at them about "personal responsibility" and tell them to get a job and quit sucking off the government tit. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 01:51:47 PM »

Humans: 1
Jesus: 0
(and he wants us to eat his body and drink his blood, but he won't eat a butt loaf)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1973
  • Darwins +355/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 04:01:42 PM »
Not a true contradiction per se, but this still seemed like the most appropriate place to bring this up.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the stories are true, granting that Jesus magically multiplied the food, and the disciples were just as surprised the second time around as the first.  This still does nothing to address exactly how they were eating those fish.

First of all, where did these fish come from?  Who carries fish around with them for a snack?  Bread I can see, but fish???

The stories make it sound like they were whole fish.  How on earth would they prepare it?  Were there also people carrying filet knives with them, cleaning the fish as they magically multiplied?  Did they build a fire to cook it all?  Or were people just chomping into raw fish?

The author could have used any fruit, vegetable, or liquid, and it would have at least given the stories some semblance of believability.  As they are written, they are ludicrous entirely apart from the magical bits and bad character building.
Like all evilution-lovin' secularists, you are misinterpreting the passage.  When reading this with your heart open to god and his spirit, it is clear.  When you let the holy spirit into your heart, you will see that it actually reads breaded fish.  This passage glorifies the lord, and lets it be known to all that he is the maker of the first fish stick.  That way, all Christians of the world can now know that there is an easy to make protein-hearty food that can be consumed on Fridays during lent.

Duh doy.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6621
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 04:21:50 PM »
First of all, where did these fish come from?  Who carries fish around with them for a snack?  Bread I can see, but fish???

The stories make it sound like they were whole fish.  How on earth would they prepare it?  Were there also people carrying filet knives with them, cleaning the fish as they magically multiplied?  Did they build a fire to cook it all?  Or were people just chomping into raw fish?

http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/2652874/dried_fish_and_seafood_market_in_israel_to_2017.pdf The fish is dried. I have eaten it and it is delicious, far better than jerky.

The real problem with the stories is that they are ludicrously stupid. The mistake is made by even trying to explain them. Were I a Christian apologist, I would explain that both these stories are, in fact, merely a repetition of each other. The original story was a parable, not a miracle. The idea is that if people will only unselfishly support each other and give what they have left, or that for which they have no need, to others, then waste is removed and all get a fair share and be happy.

I am not a Christian apologist, so I won't mention this.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Dr H

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Darwins +14/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Irritant
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 04:40:23 PM »
Jesus would never do that today.

That's probably true.

If Jesus were around today he's be multiplying Buffalo-wing-flavored beef jerky sticks and nacho Doritos™.

Dr H

"I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry."
                                                           -- John Cage

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6523
  • Darwins +852/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 05:05:15 PM »
Jesus would never do that today.

That's probably true.

If Jesus were around today he's be multiplying Buffalo-wing-flavored beef jerky sticks and nacho Doritos™.

Praise the lord and pass the Pepto-Bismol. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2013, 05:23:36 AM »
You can eat raw fish rather easily, the organs are nasty though...
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1239
  • Darwins +89/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2013, 06:00:33 AM »
I used to try and rationalise the stories in the bible.
Why loaves? becasue back in the day they used unlevend bread which would have risen in the sun giving the apperance of magically multiplying. Why fish? Because they were hanging out by a lake with a bunch of fishermen.

of course I realise now that with it being bullshit it doesn't really matter which arbitary food stuffs were used as its fiction anyway. he may as well said that it was Big Kahuna Burgers and fries.

Offline The Gawd

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • Darwins +78/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 09:36:04 AM »
I used to try and rationalise the stories in the bible.
Why loaves? becasue back in the day they used unlevend bread which would have risen in the sun giving the apperance of magically multiplying. Why fish? Because they were hanging out by a lake with a bunch of fishermen.

of course I realise now that with it being bullshit it doesn't really matter which arbitary food stuffs were used as its fiction anyway. he may as well said that it was Big Kahuna Burgers and fries.

That iiiis a tasty burger

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10339
  • Darwins +180/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 03:06:26 PM »
He would have been better off coming up with 5000 happy meals.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 03:17:18 PM »

http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/2652874/dried_fish_and_seafood_market_in_israel_to_2017.pdf The fish is dried. I have eaten it and it is delicious, far better than jerky.

And has been a protein staple of the Middle East for thousands of years.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6374
  • Darwins +752/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 04:46:48 PM »
Jesus would never do that today.  He would call them all freeloaders.  Bitch at them about "personal responsibility" and tell them to get a job and quit sucking off the government tit. ;)

Well, even if he tried the health department wouldn't let him serve unapproved food, and the FDA would climb all over his ass for not labeling the source. Plus if the fish came from the Pacific, they would glow in the dark and stuff and nobody would be all the surprised if a few mutated into something bigger and uglier.

The loaves thing is great. Well, the greatest thing since before sliced bread.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6523
  • Darwins +852/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 05:23:46 PM »
Did they all sit on the ground and eat or were chairs and tables magically brought in? Were there any utensils and napkins? What about beverages? Condiments, too--I like hot sauce on my fish. And what about the veggie option?

I see a whole Jesus Catering and Picnic Supply thing going on here.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline hickdive

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 917
  • Darwins +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2013, 08:09:24 AM »
Yup, absolutely no-one else brought food? Aye, right.

What happened was that the call for food went out and everyone thought, "fuck that, I brought enough for me and I ain't sharing', except for one wee guy who was a bit too naive.

When the basket of food gets passed round most folk pretend to take something but, because the whole guilt-trip thing has worked on them they actually put a bit of their own food INTO the basket.

Hey presto, food for all and quite a bit left over.
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline wolfunchained

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2013, 04:13:48 AM »
I used to believe all the miracles of jesus including this one becauase i was told the story over and over for well over 20 years since i was born. It takes serious deprogramming to start thinking realisticly. Its just not possible to feed 5000 people with 5  loaves of bread and 2 fish. Anyone who has never questioned how its possible or how it actually happened has blind faith in my opinion. Doesnt make it wrong, but i believe what i see.
now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline Dr H

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Darwins +14/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Irritant
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 03:53:22 PM »
Did they all sit on the ground and eat or were chairs and tables magically brought in?
There was only one card table and three folding chairs for the guest speakers, but those also were multiplied until there was sufficient furniture for 5000.

Once you've go that energy-into-matter thing going, form is a mere detail.  :)
Dr H

"I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry."
                                                           -- John Cage

Offline Andy S.

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • Darwins +35/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2013, 10:24:37 AM »
I used to believe all the miracles of jesus including this one becauase i was told the story over and over for well over 20 years since i was born. It takes serious deprogramming to start thinking realisticly. Its just not possible to feed 5000 people with 5  loaves of bread and 2 fish. Anyone who has never questioned how its possible or how it actually happened has blind faith in my opinion. Doesnt make it wrong, but i believe what i see.



I used to believe all the miracles of Jesus too.  I believed in the supernatural with all my heart, mind, soul (whatever that is) and strength.  It was never the miracles that bothered me because you either believe in the supernatural or you don't. 

So it's not what Jesus DID DO that bothered me, it's what Jesus DID NOT do when he visited this earth.  Non Stamp Collector hits the nail on the head in this youtube video.  If you only have one minute, the section that relates to this thread is from 5:30 to 6:30.






"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 10:33:31 AM »
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 10:39:14 AM »
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?

That really depends, are we talking about was it created using air, or was organic matter allowed?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 10:46:47 AM »
Using nothing more than solar energy.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2013, 10:51:42 AM »
Using nothing more than solar energy.

Hrrm. It would then depend on the amount of energy it would take to slow down light into matter, and I don't think any scientist has any idea on that.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2013, 10:54:18 AM »
If we got said information, we could make a lowball estimation a "gods" power.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1973
  • Darwins +355/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 11:04:26 AM »
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?

42
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Darwins +42/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?

I once ate a fish and made a loaf.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 11:42:21 AM »
I once made loaf and ate a fish.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Darwins +42/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 11:49:03 AM »
At the same time?

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 11:56:58 AM »
No, not at the same time.

But now i really want to do that...
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Darwins +42/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Loaves and fishes
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 12:00:51 PM »
I think we have different definitions of making a loaf. Usually people say take a loaf, but it sounds weird to me to take it with you. You put it in the toilet for a reason...  :P