Author Topic: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"  (Read 5177 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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this would make God a lier. He said there are no gods other than Him.
I get really fed up of so-called Christians inventing things that God said.
No, God never said that. Quite the reverse, The Bible name many other Gods. Yahweh merely says they are false (i.e. they tell lies) gods. There is even a story where one god defeats Yahweh! (I bet you didn't know that.)

Please. It seems to me that your religion is one that you have made up. The god is very similar to you and you pick and choose a few verses and then invent things and then you suddenly become an expert on yourself, who you worship.

Yahweh makes it clear that he is not a god to be "interpreted", he is a god to be obeyed. How can you obey him if you have no idea what he is saying?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online wheels5894

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I'd say its tough working one's way through the OT trying to understand it on the way and to see how the theology which has developed over 2,000 years or more fits the texts. I'd say it was much easier to start with a few well know verses and just work with them. After all, the result is more or less the same.

Of course, if one looks carefully at the  NT is seems that its no so much dogma that is handed out but more the idea of forming communities in which people worship and share life together. Of course if the various lone christians, of whom we see quite a lot these days, realised this, and realised that having the right doctrine wasn't the point,they might be shocked too much to carry on...
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Andy S.

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There is even a story where one god defeats Yahweh! (I bet you didn't know that.)

Hey Graybeard, I'm curious as to which "story" you are referring to here.


Yahweh makes it clear that he is not a god to be "interpreted", he is a god to be obeyed. How can you obey him if you have no idea what he is saying?

It is hard to obey Yahweh when people have no idea what he is saying.  I struggled with this as a Christian.  Luke 18:29 states:

"Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life".

To be obedient, should I have interpreted these verses literally and left my wife and child to follow this glorified cult leader?  Or are these verses supposed to be interpreted metaphorically? 

Out of the thousands of sermons I have heard I have never heard a pastor interpret these verses literally and encourage their flock to leave their families for the sake of the kingdom of God.  Even hard-core fundamentalist pastors draw the line when it comes to interpreting these verses literally.  I love to hear the spin doctoring when pastors preach on this section of scripture. 
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Online wheels5894

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this would make God a lier. He said there are no gods other than Him.
I get really fed up of so-called Christians inventing things that God said.
No, God never said that. Quite the reverse, The Bible name many other Gods. Yahweh merely says they are false (i.e. they tell lies) gods. There is even a story where one god defeats Yahweh! (I bet you didn't know that.)

Please. It seems to me that your religion is one that you have made up. The god is very similar to you and you pick and choose a few verses and then invent things and then you suddenly become an expert on yourself, who you worship.

You know this is what I have thought for a long time but, today, I was introduced to a video that shows this happening in front of our eyes.

We all know William Lane Craig. In the clip that starts the video, he explains that he knows, thanks to the Holy Spirit within him what the truth is and this truth is not open to argument or reason. So when reasoned argument is presented to Craig, he can just ignore it as being not relevant or plain wrong. now whilst some people might allow Craig to actually have this divine being dwelling in him, most of us would think this idea  is merely an expression of the brain's ideal and that the experience he has is the invention of a god - in Craig's own image. we could probablt establish this by checking on everyone's image of god and finding they are all different.

Anyway here's the video - its 32 mins long but worth the watch I would say.



Quote
Yahweh makes it clear that he is not a god to be "interpreted", he is a god to be obeyed. How can you obey him if you have no idea what he is saying?

It's this interpretation that is the root of the problem with religions in general. There are so many and they are all different.  It's probably why the literalist fundamentalists are rather popular as, in theory, interpretation is not involved - at least it is hidden from the 'flock',
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Andy S.

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so we have a few a options in the translation... either the Word is God or the Word shares the same nature as God or simply the word is a god option 3 creates many gods this would make God a lier.

THAT'S IT!  Thanks harbinger.  John chapter 1 makes a lot more sense to me now.  I now think I have the correct understanding of this text.  The conclusion is that God is a liar!  This totally helps me understand these other verses as well:

1. Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

2. Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (2nd coming)

3. Matthew 10:23 "Truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

4. Matthew 26:64 "nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Conclusion: If you think Jesus is God then God is a liar.  Thanks Harbinger, these verses make a lot more sense to me.  Why didn't Jesus come back in the generation of the disciples?  Because he is a liar!  That makes much more sense than thinking Jesus was linguistically challenged and when he said, "this generation" he really meant "that generation".  The fact that Jesus lied about the timing of his second coming makes him a false prophet.  Deuteronomy 18:22 states:

"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken.  The prophet has spoken it presumptuously you shall not be afraid of him."

I am so relieved!  Now I don't have to "be afraid" of Jesus when he says, "these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).  AWESOME!  The bible says that if a prophet is false then I don't have to "be afraid" of him (Jesus).

As Jesus could be rightly depicted as being God or sharing in the nature of God therefore, the actual shared nature makes Him also God.

False.  This is a non sequitur.  It would not follow that Jesus is the one true God because he shares the nature of Yahweh.  The shared human nature that my son has with me does not mean that he is one being with me.

Place 1:1 in context and you see this Word is a person or at the least a personification. However, the Word is refered to as He and Him. ariving at 1:14 the word became flesh taking the whole council of the bible line upon line precept upon precept there is little choice that the word is Jesus who is God. It's not that hard. keep it in context of the whole Bible as well as the whole chapter you found it in.

There is little choice that the word is Jesus who is God?????  Then why was/is there so much confusion over the nature of the Godhead throughout Church history?  If it is so clear then why would there have to be so many councils and creeds trying to nail down the correct understanding of the nature of God?

You say to keep it in context of the whole chapter of John 1.  I say let's "keep it in context" of the whole book of John.  There is NOT "little choice that the word is Jesus who is God".  Here are just a few verses in John that would contradict the idea that Jesus is the One True God. 

1. John 3:16: "...He gave His only begotten Son...".

     If the Son is begotten then he cannot be co-eternal with the Father.

2. John 5:27: "He gave Him (Jesus) authority to execute judgement..."

     If Jesus is the one true God then He wouldn't have to be given authority.

3. John 5:30: "I (Jesus) can do nothing on My own initiative"

     Jesus is not all-powerful

4. John 6:38: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

     If Jesus does not have the same will as the one true God then he is not the same "being" as the one true God.

5. John 6:57: "I (Jesus) live because of the Father"

    Jesus is not the one true God if He relies on the Father to live.

6. John 8:28: "I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me"

     If Jesus has to be taught things then he is not all-knowing like 1 John 3:20 says of God.

7. John 10:18: "This commandment I received from My Father" and John 14:31: "I do exactly as the Father commanded Me".

     The one true God does not receive commandments; He gives commandments!  Jesus is not the one True God.

8. John 13:16: "Nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him" and John 14:28: "for the Father is greater than I".

     Jesus is not co-equal with the Father

9. John 17:3: "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent".

     This excludes Jesus from being the one true God unless the verse would read, "...the only true God WHO IS Jesus Christ..."

10. John 20:17: "I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."

     Jesus cannot be the one true God because he says here that He has a God.  The one true God does not have a God!


So there are verses in John that might include Jesus in the Godhead but there are also many verses that exclude Jesus from being the one true God.  So I hope you understand now that it is not clear even in the book of John that Jesus is the one true God. 

Furthermore, you might already know that the majority of scholars believe that Mark was the first gospel to be written and then Matthew and Luke stole (and embellished) from Mark.  You will be hard-pressed to find that the author of the gospel of Mark thought that Jesus was the one true God.  Don't you think that revealing to the readers that Jesus is the one true God is an important bit of information to leave out of a gospel?   







 
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline harbinger77

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this would make God a lier. He said there are no gods other than Him.
I get really fed up of so-called Christians inventing things that God said.
No, God never said that. Quite the reverse, The Bible name many other Gods. Yahweh merely says they are false (i.e. they tell lies) gods. There is even a story where one god defeats Yahweh! (I bet you didn't know that.)

Please. It seems to me that your religion is one that you have made up. The god is very similar to you and you pick and choose a few verses and then invent things and then you suddenly become an expert on yourself, who you worship.

Yahweh makes it clear that he is not a god to be "interpreted", he is a god to be obeyed. How can you obey him if you have no idea what he is saying?

There ya go this is Isaiah 44:6-8. This is just one place He says it.
6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of
Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of
hosts: 'I am the first and I am the
last, And there is no God besides Me.
7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and
declare it; Yes, let him recount it to
Me in order, From the time that I
established the ancient nation. And let
them declare to them the things that
are coming And the events that are
going to take place. 8 Do not tremble
and do not be afraid; Have I not long
since announced it to you and declared
it? And you are My witnesses. Is there
any God besides Me, Or is there any
other Rock? I know of none.

Your turn. God was defeated? Chapter and verse please?

Most of what I see quoted as contradiction is pulled from context or simply misunderstood. Some of this seems willful. It must be my 10 year old can answer most of these from context alone. Read the bible. A whole book for yourself. I promise most of the time the answer is right there in the text.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Online wheels5894

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harbinger,

You seem to have decided, a priori, that the text of the bible is, effectively, the words of god. You argue about whether the text makes god a liar fir example. Yet there are not just 2 choices but three.

1. The text is true and the word from god

2. Actually, god is telling lies in his text

3. Men made this stuff up - including any gods referred to in the text but were not good enough as authors to make sure everything added up.

Unless you are prepared to accept 3. I for one will to be able to accept your view of the text as it is clear the holes in the text about Jesus that Andy has shown you strongly suggest that the text is a  'not-very-well-plotted' human construction as even a god who lied would manage to get the story right - to make sure that everyone got the right message from the text.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Graybeard

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There is even a story where one god defeats Yahweh! (I bet you didn't know that.)

Hey Graybeard, I'm curious as to which "story" you are referring to here.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/cgodsandgoddesses/a/chemosh.htm

2Ki:3:5: But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.
2Ki:3:6: And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel.
2Ki:3:7: And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle?  And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses.

2Ki:3:16: And he said, Thus saith the LORD, Make this valley full of ditches.
2Ki:3:17: For thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts.
2Ki:3:18: And this is but a light thing in the sight of the LORD: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand.
2Ki:3:19: And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones.
[...]
2Ki:3:26: And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not.
2Ki:3:27: Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.  And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

So who was the god that defeated the Armies of Yahweh?
 
2Ki:23:13: And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Andy S.

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harbinger,

You seem to have decided, a priori, that the text of the bible is, effectively, the words of god. You argue about whether the text makes god a liar fir example. Yet there are not just 2 choices but three.

1. The text is true and the word from god

2. Actually, god is telling lies in his text

3. Men made this stuff up - including any gods referred to in the text but were not good enough as authors to make sure everything added up.

Unless you are prepared to accept 3. I for one will to be able to accept your view of the text as it is clear the holes in the text about Jesus that Andy has shown you strongly suggest that the text is a  'not-very-well-plotted' human construction as even a god who lied would manage to get the story right - to make sure that everyone got the right message from the text.

What a concept!!!  You are right wheels, there is a third option.  It definitely makes sense that men made this stuff up.  However, if there is a Christian God there is evidence in the bible that he is a liar.  But it is beyond me why anyone would want to worship such a jerk. 

It does seem to me that the bible was put together at different times by different authors, with different purposes, who had different theologies.  And what came out of all this was/is different interpretations concerning almost every doctrine imaginable in the bible.

But wait a second.  Maybe we are over-thinking all of this wheels.  Maybe we are trying to be too intellectual in our approach to the understanding of the bible.  Jesus says, "You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent..."(Matt. 11:25).  It could be that we are using our "NATURAL" brain too much.  Paul says, "But a NATURAL man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised"(1 Cor. 2:14).

In addition, it might be that we can't fully see that Christ is actually God because "...the god of this world (another god I guess) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving..."(2 Cor. 4:4).  Even though I have not witnessed anything supernatural in my life, it is very plausible that this supernatural force is blinding my mind.  I can't prove Paul wrong so he is probably right. ;D

There should be a book out there entitled: "How to overlook biblical contradictions for dummies".  The ironic conclusion of this book would be....."If you want to believe that the bible has no contradictions and is the infallible and inerrant word of God, then you can't use your natural brain and you must become a dummy".       
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline Andy S.

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Most of what I see quoted as contradiction is pulled from context or simply misunderstood. Some of this seems willful. It must be my 10 year old can answer most of these from context alone. Read the bible. A whole book for yourself. I promise most of the time the answer is right there in the text.

Good.  Maybe your 10 year old son can help me out.  Read Isaiah 44:6-8 to your son and emphasize that there is no God besides the one true God (Yahweh).  Then show him John 1:1 and point out that Jesus is the "Word" which is the one true God.  Then read him John 20:17 where Jesus says he has a God.  And then ask your 10 year old son, "Why does the resurrected Jesus say that he has a God when Jesus is the "Word" who is the one true God"?  This should be easy for your son since the "answer is right there in the text", right?

By the way, think about what you wrote.  You said, "some of this seems willful".  Shouldn't ALL of this seem willful if I'm wrong?  By saying that only some of this seems willful is giving a horrible account of the hope that is in you (1 Peter 3:15).  And then your "account" gets worse by saying, "I promise most of the time the answer is right there in the text".  Shouldn't you be saying that ALL THE TIME the answer is in the text?
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline Andy S.

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There is even a story where one god defeats Yahweh! (I bet you didn't know that.)

Hey Graybeard, I'm curious as to which "story" you are referring to here.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/cgodsandgoddesses/a/chemosh.htm

2Ki:3:5: But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.
2Ki:3:6: And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel.
2Ki:3:7: And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle?  And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses.

2Ki:3:16: And he said, Thus saith the LORD, Make this valley full of ditches.
2Ki:3:17: For thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts.
2Ki:3:18: And this is but a light thing in the sight of the LORD: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand.
2Ki:3:19: And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones.
[...]
2Ki:3:26: And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not.
2Ki:3:27: Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.  And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

So who was the god that defeated the Armies of Yahweh?
 
2Ki:23:13: And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.

Thanks Graybeard.  I thought this might be the story you might be referring to.  The word indignation (KJV) always threw me off because indignation means: "strong displeasure at something considered unjust, offensive, insulting, or base; righteous anger".(Dictionary.com).

The correct translation (in my opinion) should be "wrath".  You will see here in this link why "wrath" is a better translation for the Hebrew word "qu-sep".   

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/ketzef_7110.htm

In my NASB bible the Hebrew word "qu-sep" is actually translated as "wrath".  The word "wrath" definitely fits the text better in my opinion.  The word "indignation" can possibly give an interpretation that the Israelites  departed because they thought the sacrifice of the Moabite son was "unjust" and they had "strong displeasure" of this sacrifice.

Thanks for the link.  Good evidence concerning this section of scripture.  When the "Moabite stone" says "And Chemosh drove him before my sight" the "him" is definitely referring to Yahweh and could not be talking about the opposing king since there was more than one opposing king involved in the battle. 

Personally, I don't know if I could go so far to say that another god defeated Yahweh though.  Welllll, maybe.  It depends on how you define "defeat".  One definition of defeat is "to win victory over".  In that case I would have to agree with you.  What I can say for certain is that the Christian God is a liar because in 2 Kings 3:18 it says, "...He (the LORD) will also give the Moabites into your hand".  This is an unconditional promise.  The text doesn't say, "The LORD will give the Moabites into your hand unless the king sacrifices his son to Chemosh". 

Do you know what boggles my mind Graybeard - the fact that the God of the bible has to use Israelite armies to accomplish his purposes and kill people he doesn't like in the old testament but then in the new testament he can just kill people he doesn't like on the spot like Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5).  If God has the power to just kill people on the spot then why wouldn't he just kill all the Moabites on the spot and not rely on the Israelites who are scared of the wrath of Chemosh.  Even if the Israelites were scared of the wrath of Chemosh then Yahweh should have stopped all the hearts of the Moabites in order to fulfill his promise in 2 Kings 3:18.

For some added comedy, I give you John McArthur's commentary on 2 Kings 3:27:

"It seems best to understand that the king's sacrifice inspired the Moabites to hate Israel more and fight more intensely.  This fierceness perhaps led Israel to believe that Chemosh was fighting for the Moabites.  Thus, the indignation or fury came from the Moabites". :laugh:

Warning to Christians: Keep on reading into chapter 4 of Kings and don't investigate and ask the follow-up question: "What happened to the promise in 2 Kings 3:18.       
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Sacrifices have always been required to cover sins.

Why?

 Sacrifice your good animals so the priests could eat well without doing the work?.....It must have been a good life for a priest back then. The priest decides what sin he makes up for you,tells you the penalty (sacrifice) and eats well for the rest of the week.


@@ sorry for the late response,playing catch up##
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 07:21:08 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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