Author Topic: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.  (Read 13158 times)

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Online Azdgari

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Before you guys start throwing rocks .... consider the sun.

Scientists have been telling us for years and years that the sun experiences nuclear reactions every second to produce the light and heat we see and feel.  I bet that most of you don't realize that other scientists have determined that this is not the case at all. These other scientists propose that the sun actually produces electrical heat. 

Invest time to research the Electric Universe.

I say this to make you realize that science is full of theories. Take your pick what to believe.

I want links, names, and papers. And an answer to my question. Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Here ya go, OOA:
http://www.electricuniverse.info/Electric_Sun_theory

It's a hypothesis that's been soundly falsified.  Though not in the eyes of its original proponent, unsurprisingly.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Hmmm, seems usable.

Anyway, plasma, AKA what happens when you add shitloads of energy to matter.

We know what it is, so i don't get the discussion.
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Offline Anfauglir

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I can't recall any of my previous lives either but i also think i'm not ready to do so. Meaning, if i'm here to learn certain life lessons now, i have to focus on that.....

Except, if you do not know what lesson you are here to learn, you have no idea if you are learning it.  You could in fact, every day, be failing your lesson and have no idea.  Then you die - and find out that you have wasted your life.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline screwtape

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i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real.

Don't get testy with me.  I've not ignored anything.  My point was you have not provided any of this alleged evidence that reincarnation is real.  You've suggested it as an alternative to death being the end.  But only just said so.  So, what you got?  Let's see this evidence. 

Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept.

In other words, you haven't got any actual evidence for me to ignore.  You've just got... what?  A tradition of wishful thinking?  If that is the game we are going to play, why stop at reincarnation?  Because, really, who needs to do this over without the benefit of experience? 

Why not make an afterlife where we get to ride amusement park rides all day, eat corndogs, funnel cakes and deep fried milkyway bars without getting sick or fat, and fireworks every night?  If you are not interested in exploring that concept, I suspect my comments will fall short...

It seems unlikely to me reincarnation is the answer, particularly if the whole point of it is for people to become wiser.  If that were the case, I would expect a gradual "wisening" of the human animal.  Do we seem to be particuarly wiser than we were 500 years ago?  I can think of only a couple examples where you might say that - slavery and women's rights.  Though, India, home of reincarnation expertise, seems to be devolving or stagnating on both concepts.  Apart from that, people seem to be the dumb chimps they have always been.



Scientists tend to be experts in the material world. If they can quantify it, they will be able to tell us lots about it. This particular topic involves the etheral...which is not well understood by scientists.

How does one become an expert on the ethereal?  How does one study the ethereal first hand?


I like to base my opinions and decisions on more tangible facts as well, so i took the approach of researching reincarnation. I found various western doctors that have discovered and performed past-life regressions and that have documented thousands of cases.

Tangible facts are good.  Above you implied you didn't have any. 

Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

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Online Azdgari

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Hmmm, seems usable.

Anyway, plasma, AKA what happens when you add shitloads of energy to matter.

We know what it is, so i don't get the discussion.

I know, right?  It's one of those things that is clearly "reproducible in the lab".

Oh, and the electric sun idea doesn't explain the chondritic abundance of elements.  Nuclear fusion does.  The page I linked doesn't mention that, but as a geologist, I feel it should be added.
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Offline jdawg70

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I know, right?  It's one of those things that is clearly "reproducible in the lab".
Heck I can reproduce it on my desk with a USB port:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/964e/
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Offline jdawg70

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I say this to make you realize that science is full of theories. Take your pick what to believe.
Yes.  I will pick the theories that have the greatest amount of supporting evidence and the greatest success at making accurate and precise predictions.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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This has been said before, but I might as well say it too.

The electric sun theory does not explain the elements made within stars, fusion does...
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Offline acturbo

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Quote
Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

I suggest studying the research and discoveries of Dr. Michael Newton.  He's the guy that made me dig into this topic. He was an atheist doctor that practiced traditional hypnotherapy.


Online Mrjason

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Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

What always amazes me is how often famous or important people are reincarnated. How is it that the kings advisor has a better chance to be reincarnated than the kid whos job it was to shave the butt nuggets off the sacrificial goats ass?

Offline Hatter23

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Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

What always amazes me is how often famous or important people are reincarnated. How is it that the kings advisor has a better chance to be reincarnated than the kid whos job it was to shave the butt nuggets off the sacrificial goats ass?

Or as I  put it, "a lot of Egyptian royalty, but not a lot of 14th century peasant women who died in childbirth"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline blue

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What always amazes me is how often famous or important people are reincarnated. How is it that the kings advisor has a better chance to be reincarnated than the kid whos job it was to shave the butt nuggets off the sacrificial goats ass?

Or as I  put it, "a lot of Egyptian royalty, but not a lot of 14th century peasant women who died in childbirth"

I always used to tease an ex of mine who believed in a lot of new age woo like reincarnation that I was the reincarnated soul of the man who brought syphilis to Europe, just to get her goat.  :laugh:
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Offline screwtape

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I suggest studying the research and discoveries of Dr. Michael Newton.  He's the guy that made me dig into this topic. He was an atheist doctor that practiced traditional hypnotherapy.

1. don't care whether he was an atheist or not. 
2. "regression" hypnosis has already proven to produce false results, so I do not see why I should bother with this guy.  From my perspective, you need to provide evidence that is credible.[1]
3. Dr Oz supports past life regression, so it is obviously false.[2]
4. you skipped over the other parts of my post.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_regression_in_therapy#False_memories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Sources_of_memories
 2. Oz is a charlatan and a fraud and anything he's pushing should be assumed to be false
http://www.oprah.com/health/Does-Past-Life-Regression-Work
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Offline lotanddaughters

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joining this thread late (my first post) ...

Welcome to our forum.


However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation.

That's a pretty flipping big IF, don't you think?  I'd say you need to connect the dots, because you've not gotten from here to there yet.

i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real. Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept. And this is fine. I can only provide my perspective on this topic.
Bold is mine.

Keep this in mind:

Every single field of science is crowded with capable researchers. From this time forward, there will never be a collection of new solid evidence that gets ignored by all of the top scientists.

Never.

Actual evidence for reincarnation? Scientists jump for joy and do cartwheels after making a discovery of not even a sliver of the importance of such a discovery.

Please. Think. About. This. Before. Continuing.

Scientists tend to be experts in the material world.

The greatest scientists of our modern world tend to be experts in "If it's a good argument, I will recognize that it's a good argument." This renders your definition of "non-material" to "Nonsense that every great scientist recognizes as nonsense".

A good logical proposal is a good logical proposal.


Great scientist: "1 + 1 = 2".

You: "I don't like '1 + 1 = 2'. Since great scientists are calculating their conclusions within the only world we know, I think I will propose a different world where 'anything goes' and call their 'real world' 'The Material World'."





You're a joke.


Once again, welcome to the forum.  ;)
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline acturbo

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I suggest studying the research and discoveries of Dr. Michael Newton.  He's the guy that made me dig into this topic. He was an atheist doctor that practiced traditional hypnotherapy.

1. don't care whether he was an atheist or not. 
2. "regression" hypnosis has already proven to produce false results, so I do not see why I should bother with this guy.  From my perspective, you need to provide evidence that is credible.[1]
3. Dr Oz supports past life regression, so it is obviously false.[2]
4. you skipped over the other parts of my post.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_regression_in_therapy#False_memories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Sources_of_memories
 2. Oz is a charlatan and a fraud and anything he's pushing should be assumed to be false
http://www.oprah.com/health/Does-Past-Life-Regression-Work

Did any of you take time to research Dr. Michael Newton's work before posting  to this thread? How about Dr. Ian Stevenson?  As for Dr. Oz, other than recognizing his name, i don't know anything about his work -- but I'll take your word for it that he's a charlatan and a fraud. I'm sure he's not the first and he won't be the last.

As for #4, I'm not here to argue ... i suspect that you'll continue to believe what you want, and in your eyes, be convinced that you have successfully debunked whatever anyone posts that doesn't fit your views. That's fine. I posted to give people something to consider as to "why god (or God) doesn't heal amputees".

Offline acturbo

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Quote

You're a joke.

Once again, welcome to the forum.  ;)

I think what you meant to say is that what i post here is a joke -- seeing as you don't actually know me.

If it makes you feel good to be an atheist, by all means, don't let anyone stop you from enjoying it.

Offline One Above All

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acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?
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Offline acturbo

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acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward. As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

As for the Electric Universe, check out this short documentary

Offline jdawg70

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acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward. As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Hang on for a sec...is your point simply that there are some things that we don't understand?

I'm not sure you'll find anyone on this forum that disagrees with that.  The point may be valid, but is about as revelatory as making the point that 'word' is a word.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline One Above All

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Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward.

Behave what way? Calling you on your BS?

As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Dark matter is a fairly recent theory. Scientists will need more time in order to conclude anything.

As for the Electric Universe, check out this short documentary
<snipped movie to save space>

I'm not going to spend an hour watching some crackpot guess. Do you know what electromagnetic fields do to charged particles? My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth. Not to mention heavier elements (which someone already mentioned) that the guess doesn't explain. Oh, and did I mention the fact that we've identified neutrinos coming from the sun, which falls in line with the nuclear fusion theory?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline acturbo

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acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward. As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Hang on for a sec...is your point simply that there are some things that we don't understand?

I'm not sure you'll find anyone on this forum that disagrees with that.  The point may be valid, but is about as revelatory as making the point that 'word' is a word.

Unfortunately, the line of argument you guys are dragging me down into is that if i can't scientifically prove reincarnation, then it must be "bunk". I suggest that just because we don't fully understand, or more specifically, can't "absolutely, positively" prove reincarnation, does not mean it doesn't exist. There's lots of room for discussion about this topic, but holding my comments to a rigid must-have-proof-only standard is not helping us discuss it. I simply pointed out there is lots we don't understand about the universe, including dark matter, which i think is relevant seeing as it shows that scientists don't have it all figured out.

I posted a good video to address scientific proof for reincarnation, but none of you have followed up on that. What i do see is, if you review this thread, childish comments including "1+1=2" comments. And i'm supposed to be the one that's "a joke"?

Offline acturbo

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Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward.

Behave what way? Calling you on your BS?

As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Dark matter is a fairly recent theory. Scientists will need more time in order to conclude anything.

As for the Electric Universe, check out this short documentary
<snipped movie to save space>

I'm not going to spend an hour watching some crackpot guess. Do you know what electromagnetic fields do to charged particles? My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth. Not to mention heavier elements (which someone already mentioned) that the guess doesn't explain. Oh, and did I mention the fact that we've identified neutrinos coming from the sun, which falls in line with the nuclear fusion theory?

I've heard enough now ... it sounds like you know better than NASA:
http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/spaceweather.htm


Offline One Above All

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I've heard enough now ... it sounds like you know better than NASA:
http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/spaceweather.htm

I actually read your link. You don't appear to have done so.

Quote
The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth. When they do, the Earth's magnetic field prevents almost all of them from reaching the Earth's surface. The small number of very high energy particles that does reach the surface does not significantly increase the level of radiation that we experience every day.

Bold mine.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline screwtape

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Did any of you take time to research Dr. Michael Newton's work before posting  to this thread?

No and I told you why.  The whole idea is preposterous and you've not given any reason as to why it should be considered in the first place.  You've said, "what about reincarnation?"  I've answered, "what about it?"  And you've just shrugged your shoulders.  So unless you have some better evidence - that is to say, data - we've got very little to talk about.

I offered an alternative afterlife with as much reason to believe it as reincarnation.  You've not said whether you buy into it or not.

How about Dr. Ian Stevenson? 

see above.

As for Dr. Oz, other than recognizing his name, i don't know anything about his work -- but I'll take your word for it that he's a charlatan and a fraud. I'm sure he's not the first and he won't be the last.

he's a hack unleashed on the world by Oprah.


As for #4, I'm not here to argue ... i suspect that you'll continue to believe what you want, and in your eyes, be convinced that you have successfully debunked whatever anyone posts that doesn't fit your views. That's fine. I posted to give people something to consider as to "why god (or God) doesn't heal amputees".

But you haven't done that.  You've said something that, so far, is not worth considering. 

Let's take your argument and follow it to its conclusion.  You said god does not heal amputees because amputation is really nothing, in the greater scheme of things.  I think that distills it and allows us to not get hung up on reincarnation.  Please correct me if that is inaccurate in some way.

So, if something as seemingly horrible as amputation is not worth worrying too much about, what is?  Theft?  Rape?  Murder?  Seems to me all those are irrelevant compared to multiple lifetimes or the eternity of heaven.  So, given that, we should be able to stop spending money on law enforcement and criminal justice.  We should also be able to disband our army, since if we are invaded by the Chinese and killed for food, we'll just be reincarnated as a Chinaman anyway.  And if you are wrong...well, shit.

I recall a story from Hitchens where he realized that even buddhism has its horrible elements.  He saw a buddhist family and the child had some horrible developmental condition.  He said something along the lines of "that poor child."  The mother replied, "do not feel bad for her.  She did something to deserve this in a previous life."

And that is where you end up.  Reincarnation is not just an unfounded idea.  It is an immoral one.

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Offline acturbo

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I've heard enough now ... it sounds like you know better than NASA:
http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/spaceweather.htm

I actually read your link. You don't appear to have done so.

Quote
The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth. When they do, the Earth's magnetic field prevents almost all of them from reaching the Earth's surface. The small number of very high energy particles that does reach the surface does not significantly increase the level of radiation that we experience every day.

Bold mine.

you said:
"My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth"

You are wrong. The sun IS sending electrons to earth, it's just the earth's magnetic field prevents them from
actually hitting the surface of the earth.

Offline One Above All

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you said:
"My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth"

You are wrong. The sun IS sending electrons to earth, it's just the earth's magnetic field prevents them from
actually hitting the surface of the earth.

Good call on my wording. I chalk this up to the fact that English is not my native language. However, if you were to read the sentence right before that one, you'd see I mentioned an electromagnetic field. If I had wanted to say what my wording inferred, I wouldn't have mentioned the EM field.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline wheels5894

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acturbo

You say you would like to know more about Dark Matter. Well in the New Scientist Magazine, 4th july 2013 was published the following which illuminates quite a bit about dark matter.

Quote
THE skeleton of dark matter that undergirds the cosmic web of matter in the universe has been clearly detected for first time.

We know that matter in the cosmos forms a web, with galaxies and clusters linked by filaments across mostly empty space. Filaments are made of normal matter and dark matter - the unseen stuff that makes up about 85 per cent of the universe's mass. Recent observations have seen the normal matter in such filaments.

Now Jörg Dietrich at the University Observatory in Munich, Germany, and his team have detected the dark matter component in a filament in a supercluster about 2.7 billion light years from us, called Abell 222/223.

The massive filament's gravity focuses the light travelling towards Earth from more distant background galaxies. The team used this light to calculate the filament's mass and shape. X-rays from the hot gas of normal matter in the vicinity showed that this matter lined up with the filament but made up only about 10 per cent of its mass. The rest must be dark matter (Nature, DOI: 10.1038/nature11224). This shows that the filament is "part of a network of dark matter that connects galaxy clusters throughout the universe", says Dietrich.

As for the 'electric sun idea' did you get round to explaining how the heavier elements are formed is stars like the sun derive their power from electricity and not from nuclear fusion? I would be most interested to hear that. I know a retired solar scientist and if I see him I'll ask him about the idea but I think he might laugh.
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Offline acturbo

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you said:
"My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth"

You are wrong. The sun IS sending electrons to earth, it's just the earth's magnetic field prevents them from
actually hitting the surface of the earth.

Good call on my wording. I chalk this up to the fact that English is not my native language. However, if you were to read the sentence right before that one, you'd see I mentioned an electromagnetic field. If I had wanted to say what my wording inferred, I wouldn't have mentioned the EM field.

Thanks for that, i almost missed your other wrong comment:

"The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth."

Seldom, huh? Wrong again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare
"The frequency of occurrence of solar flares varies, from several per day when the Sun is particularly "active" to less than one every week when the Sun is "quiet", following the 11-year cycle (the solar cycle). Large flares are less frequent than smaller ones."

An honest thinking man would, by now, realize the common thread in all this is "electrical" and would not be so fast to dismiss scientists that have proposed that the sun is indeed producing electrical heat/energy. But in your mad dash to prove me wrong at all costs, you have made two factual blunders in the same post.

Thing is, i don't give 2 craps about discussing sun physics or whatever ... my point here is, instead of looking for ways to prove me wrong at all costs, maybe accept what i propose with a grain of salt, research it as you wish, then post some remotely thoughtful rebuttal that may actually enlighten me and others.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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As it happens, I was just watching a bunch of videos on reincarnation a few weeks ago, including some by the guys you mention. It was one of those days that I was surfing around youtube, and had come across one of those stories of young kids recalling past life events, found it intriguing, and went on from there.

To be fair, although I stress that this is not something I put any particular stock in, most of the "research" at all worthy of the name doesn't focus on people who have done past life regression, or those who think they were Cleopatra or Marilyn Monroe. Most of them do tend to be of children who inexplicably start talking about being someone else, having a different family, etc, and most include accidental or violent deaths, which they claim to remember.

I realize that it's very easy for a thought to be suggested and implanted into the subconscious of a very young child, or for a parent to extrapolate or embellish what their son or daughter tells them. Also, some anecdotes will include what might be some really great coincidences...but, as I said, there's just something intriguing about a number of them. I have no idea, really, what kind of controls are used in this sort of "research", but just as I am interested in whether anyone ever manages to successfully take up James Randi on his wager and offer actual proof of things like out of body experiences, mediums or ghosts,  I'm interested to see whether they ever find someone who can conclusively prove that they have memories of an actual past life.

I'm skeptical of those things at present because I don't see any overwhelming evidence for them, but they are all very cool concepts, and it would be much more fun to find THEM proven true than it would be to have evidence of Biblegod handed to me on a plate.