Author Topic: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.  (Read 14459 times)

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #232 on: December 28, 2013, 11:36:36 PM »
I agree with you...this requires a new thread, or should get back on topic....
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #233 on: December 28, 2013, 11:42:46 PM »
But ParkingPlace, you don't have to live a life with no hope. I imagine that as being most miserable of all men. There is much more than life and then death.

Sadly, you feel that way because you have been told there is an alternative, and because of that, you haven't given any serious thought to what is real.

I'm just fine. I'm in my 60's, I could die any day, or live another 30 years, and whatever happens, happens. But in the meantime, I'm enjoying my life. I'm learning some computer programming for the first time, because I want to build an automated piece of woodworking equipment, and I need to know programming to control it. I'm spending a lot of my time helping two good friends who have serious health problems and both of them appreciate my upbeat attitude. I live in the woods and enjoy walking around in the forest and enjoying nature. I sleep well, can outwork people half my age and enjoy every day.

Ii have nothing to worry about, so I have no reason to be hopeless.

I didn't exist before I was born and I got along fine. Going back to non-existence, though not likely to be my favoritest thing ever, is inevitable. There is no reason to dwell on it. In fact, dwelling on it would make the now kind of sucky, especially if I felt a need to go into fear mode.

Whatever happens, happens. In the meantime, I'm just fine.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline charlie24

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #234 on: December 28, 2013, 11:43:34 PM »
What does your religion offer? From what I gather when I die that's it. Explain yourself.

First off, atheism is not a religion.

Second, atheism is only the conclusion you draw when there is an utter lack of evidence for the existence of god-beings.

What if there is no evidence that Santa Claus really does fly in a sleigh and goes down the chimney?  Then you don't believe that he exists.  How is that a religion?

What if there is no evidence that the Tooth Fairy goes around exchanging teeth for quarters?  Then you don't believe that it exists.  How is that a religion?

What if there is no evidence that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?  Then you don't believe that it exists.  How is that a religion?

Same things with god-beings.  When there is no evidence for their existence, when believers comes up with excuses for the non-evidence, when we're told not to expect anything unless we believe, when the best they can offer is "gotta have faith"... then, yes, we're not going to think the idea has much credibility.  This is not an "offering", it's only the logical step you take when you're confronted with an idea that has little to no creditable backing.
You express yourself very well. My belief is a religion, it's not physical as you probably know, it's spiritual.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #235 on: December 28, 2013, 11:47:14 PM »
You express yourself very well. My belief is a religion, it's not physical as you probably know, it's spiritual.

Do you concede on your "atheism is a religion" stance?
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #236 on: December 28, 2013, 11:51:16 PM »
You express yourself very well.

Thanks.


Quote
My belief is a religion, it's not physical as you probably know, it's spiritual.

And this ties in to stuff I said earlier.  I know what it means to "be spiritual", but how do you expect us to give the idea credence?

I assume that, by now, you're aware of how hung up we are with this notion of 'evidence' and whenever it can be examined.  Are you willing and able to provide such?  Otherwise, this idea isn't going to last very long around here.

Just saying...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #237 on: December 29, 2013, 04:40:41 AM »
Let me rephrase, have you ever done anything you knew was wrong?

The bottom line is this.

If he says yes, I have sinned. Then he is saying I am a sinner, in need of a Redeemer.
If he says no, then he must be God, because no one else on earth can truthfully make that claim.

Charlie, I would like you to consider this.

Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was right.  Then one day they didn't steal, and felt really bad about it.
Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was wrong.  Then one day they stole, and felt really bad about it.

By your logic, BOTH children sinned.  Both needed a Redeemer - the child who refused to steal needs a Redeemer, you claim.

Can you see where your juvenile logic is flawed?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #238 on: December 29, 2013, 08:43:53 AM »
Religious or not, we have all fail to completely show our honor on the Battle feild and fell short of the Glory of Thor. And that cuts like a knife my friend.

Yes, that is the same as far as I am concerned Charlie. It doesn't cut like a knife, it makes my head ache that someone who can actually type on a computer can't get they are making the assumption their religion is really really real to people who think it is just mythology.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #239 on: December 29, 2013, 12:40:19 PM »
If what you are saying is true. How can Christians be the minority but yet the birth of Christ is our nations largest holiday. Why has the Holy Bible been the #1 selling book the entirety of your life. Why is there a time in history that time became BC. Oh, maybe it was by pure chance.

Because the Roman Empire decided to adopt one pieced-together version of Christianity, and also conquered Europe. Then, Britain conquered a huge portion of the world. There is a saying that goes something like, "The sun never sets on the British Empire." Even the competition(Spain, Portugal, France, etc.) was Christian.

Sounds like a real, even though perhaps simplified, explanation to me.

Much of Christianity was spread by conquering, real-life death threats, and vivid examples of punishment by death for those who refuse to succumb. Add to that the fairy tales of eternal rewards and punishments that coerce those who don't know any better. Add to that the natural desire for many people to cling to their fairy tales, as demonstrated in modern societies that don't force Christianity down your throat, and even allow the uncensored exchange of a multitude of thought experiments that undermine every version of the fairy tale that we call Christianity.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline xyzzy

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #240 on: December 29, 2013, 04:50:14 PM »
Let me rephrase, have you ever done anything you knew was wrong?

The bottom line is this.

If he says yes, I have sinned. Then he is saying I am a sinner, in need of a Redeemer.
If he says no, then he must be God, because no one else on earth can truthfully make that claim.

Let's take

Charlie, I would like you to consider this.

Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was right.  Then one day they didn't steal, and felt really bad about it.
Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was wrong.  Then one day they stole, and felt really bad about it.

By your logic, BOTH children sinned.  Both needed a Redeemer - the child who refused to steal needs a Redeemer, you claim.

Can you see where your juvenile logic is flawed?

Charlie, let's take Anfauglir's excellent point one stage further, and bring in another Charles whilst we are at it.

Dicken's novel Oliver Twist is a work of fiction[1] influenced by events and mores of the time. As you may know, amongst it's themes it's also a social commentary on life in Victorian England. Again, to be clear, the people may have been fictional but much described was not.

In the book we come across Fagin and his children who live a life of crime - often indoctrinated from birth. It's what they know. Perhaps all they know. It's how they survive. Some were subject to standards many would consider today to be inhuman. Yet, perhaps their biggest "crime" (sin?) was that they were born poor.  Note I'm not saying it's "right" and, according to societal standards even then, their acts were crimes which brought penalties, often severe.

Fast forward less than two hundred years and things have changed. Social reforms have, at least, attempted to redress the iniquity of past times. Moreover, in the UK,[2] young children are no longer executed for petty crimes, the last execution was in 1964, the death penalty was abolished in 1998, and since 2004 parties subject to the European Convention on Human Rights are prohibited from restoring such.[3]

Now let's look at Yahweh, shall we? Pick whatever number you like; 2,000, 5,000, 6,000, 10,000, 4,500,000,000, 13,800,000,000 years; it matters not to how much has (not) changed.

If I understand, I can paraphrase what you've said as "a sin is a sin is a sin" and everyone is a sinner. According to your Bumper Book of Backwards Blame nothing has changed. Circumstances don't matter, context (something theists love to pull out of their hat when it's time to play the obfuscation card) is irrelevant, knowledge of the rules doesn't matter, and pretty much everyone is subject to eternal damnation and torment unless they kowtow to a deity who can't even be bothered to pop in for a cup of tea.

Previously I questioned your definition of love, and you didn't respond. So, explain to me again, how this Yahweh character is (a) loving and (b) anything other than a simplistic and, frankly, barbaric reflection of a time when "might makes right" and the primary way to influence people was through fear, ignorance, the sword and the spear?

You see, Charlie. I strongly suspect that you may feel that the problem is that "we don't get it". But, the reality is that we do.
 1. Just like your bible
 2. The backdrop for his novels
 3. Note to advocates of Capital Punishment: this is comment on societal changes vs religious dogma and not a treatise on the subject of the death penalty
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Dante

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #241 on: December 30, 2013, 08:53:02 AM »
When God created man in the Garden of Eden it was a perfect environment. There was no good or evil, it was perfection. They didn't even need clothing. The Bible makes it clear they were to live forever without end in their physical bodies. Then they sinned. This is where it all begins. This is when the entire world was changed forever. This is where God separated himself from man.

Because of sin, God can no longer be in the presence of man, but by spirit. Man was the the one who caused it, not God. The Bible was written by holy men of old, inspired by the Holy Spirit, for God to communicate with us. He can no longer communicate with man physically because of sin.

You may say if God is God he can do anything, and could have avoided all of this. No, God has given man free will to do or think as he pleases. Man ultimately will determine his own destination. God has never forced himself on anyone. That's why the just shall live by faith.   

G'day Chuck, my weekend was fantastic, thanks for asking!

I have a few questions about your above statements. You claim Eden was perfect, right? You claim your god can't be in the presence of man because of sin, correct? And you also claim your god gave man freewill, correct?

1.) Where did the serpent come from if there was no evil in the garden?

2.) Is there free will in heaven?

3.) Is there sin in heaven?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Betelnut

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #242 on: December 30, 2013, 07:37:05 PM »
Dante--

Those are excellent questions.  My take on #2 is no, there is no free will.  How could there be?  God (Biblegod) can't tolerate anyone thinking or doing for him/herself.  Utopias are not possible without total control of people and everything they do.

Offline Dante

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #243 on: December 31, 2013, 12:51:44 PM »
Dante--

Those are excellent questions.  My take on #2 is no, there is no free will.  How could there be?  God (Biblegod) can't tolerate anyone thinking or doing for him/herself.  Utopias are not possible without total control of people and everything they do.

Exactly. So what's the point of freewill on earth? To explain why people do bad things. And the idea of heaven is simply to alleviate the peasant's fears that their suffering is all they'll ever know.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
« Reply #244 on: December 31, 2013, 12:59:48 PM »
Those are excellent questions.  My take on #2 is no, there is no free will.  How could there be?  God (Biblegod) can't tolerate anyone thinking or doing for him/herself.  Utopias are not possible without total control of people and everything they do.

The idea of something being perfect (Utopia defined as perfect place/society) cannot be comprehended by human minds.

Thus arguing what a utopia cannot have is pointless.
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Online nogodsforme

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I have been on vacation for two weeks without internet access--in a Muslim country, no less. You all have been doing a fine job on lively Charlie without me.

One question I would ask him--what was the point of the flood if all the sin came right back again? That is, if sin was not going anywhere until Jesus had his crappy long weekend, why not just have Jesus ready and send the kid down right after A and E ate the fruit? Or did god have other planets to run and was busy elsewhere for a couple thousand years?

God is like:

"Oops, sorry about all the messy sin I left you guys with, here's the kid to take care of it. 

Oh, that was a bit harsh on the boy, but whatever. Roman Empire, yeah! Take the story home and make it your own, baby! That will cover Europe. After a few hundred years of destroying the local beliefs and customs while adopting the cooler pagan festivals cough Easter and Christmas cough there will be Christianity...

But most of you will still never accept me because you already have sophisticated and complex religions that have served you just fine. Buncha sinners, all of ya. What to do, what to do...

Sooo, how's about I'll let some former Roman Empire Europeans, like the British, French and Spanish conquer you, steal your gold, infect you with diseases, destroy your cultures, kill a bunch of you, enslave the rest, make other religions illegal and force you to accept Christianity? Huh? Violates all the important commandments? So what? Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.

Good times. They're awesome at the religious conquest thing, those European Christians. After all, that's what the Romans did to them when they were pagans. But you still have your pagan Easter and Christmas, so stop whining.

That will take care of parts of Africa, the Pacific and the Americas, anyway. The rest of you will just have to stay Buddhist or Hindu or whatever. To hell with ya. Buncha sinners, all of ya. Losers.

But I'll still have more folks than any other single religion, as long as you include white folks who don't really believe, but just like celebrating the pagan Easter and Christmas-- and be sure to count all the brown-skinned idol-worshippers who call themselves Catholics. Nyah nyah! We're number one! We're number one!

Uh oh, the Muslims are gaining ground with almost the same story, but with promises of palaces and virgins and sh!t in paradise! Beats the harps and singing all to hell. Oh, no, here comes all that sin again! What to do, what to do?"

And so on. God comes off more like an absent minded grandpa babysitting a bunch of unruly toddlers-- or the leader of a high school clique desperate to control the new freshmen than the creator of the entire universe....

Why are we supposed to be impressed by this?  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Dante

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When God created man in the Garden of Eden it was a perfect environment. There was no good or evil, it was perfection. They didn't even need clothing. The Bible makes it clear they were to live forever without end in their physical bodies. Then they sinned. This is where it all begins. This is when the entire world was changed forever. This is where God separated himself from man.

Because of sin, God can no longer be in the presence of man, but by spirit. Man was the the one who caused it, not God. The Bible was written by holy men of old, inspired by the Holy Spirit, for God to communicate with us. He can no longer communicate with man physically because of sin.

You may say if God is God he can do anything, and could have avoided all of this. No, God has given man free will to do or think as he pleases. Man ultimately will determine his own destination. God has never forced himself on anyone. That's why the just shall live by faith.   

G'day Chuck, my weekend was fantastic, thanks for asking!

I have a few questions about your above statements. You claim Eden was perfect, right? You claim your god can't be in the presence of man because of sin, correct? And you also claim your god gave man freewill, correct?

1.) Where did the serpent come from if there was no evil in the garden?

2.) Is there free will in heaven?

3.) Is there sin in heaven?

Bueller? Bueller?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Bueller? Bueller?

Okay, this is just plain creepy, last night i was researching on that movie.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Bueller? Bueller?

Okay, this is just plain creepy, last night i was researching on that movie.

That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

I know that coincidences are just mere chance, but i personally find them creepy ;D.
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Offline Mrjason

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That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

How did I know you were going to say basket weaving  :? spooky.

Offline xyzzy

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That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

Excellent point. Richard Feynman had some great examples in this area that he would use to make a point, This one, for example, is of the form that something is so unlikely that it couldn't have occurred, even though it did.

Quote
You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!

There's also a good example from Lawrence Krauss, also speaking on Feynman, then onto a general point here.

Quote
Richard Feynman used to go up to people all the time and he'd say "You won't believe what happened to me today... you won't believe what happened to me" and people would say "What?" and he'd say "Absolutely nothing". Because we humans believe that everything that happens to us is special and significant.

And that — and Carl Sagan wrote beautifully about that in The Demon-Haunted World — that is much of the source of religion. Everything that happens is unusual and I expect that the likelihood that Richard and I ever would've met. If you think about all the variables: the probability that we were in the same place at the same time, ate breakfast the same. Whatever. It's zero.

Every event that happens has small probability... but it happens and then when it happens; if it's weird, if you dream one million nights and it's nonsense but one night you dream that your friend is gonna break his leg and the next day he breaks his arm... *sound of revelation* So the real thing that physics tell us about the universe is that it's big, rare event happens all the time — including life — and that doesn't mean it's special.

By the way, can you disprove that Rocky wasn't into basket weaving? ;)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 10:55:05 AM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Anfauglir

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By the way, can you disprove that Rocky wasn't into basket weaving? ;)

Don't push me!   ;D
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online nogodsforme

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Here's one for the books: literally.

I was in a thrift store and on my way out I saw a copy of George Takei's autobiography. I like Star Trek and I think George is awesome in his advocacy for gay rights, so I picked up the book. I saw that it was only 3 bucks, so I thought, lucky winner, and bought it.

As I was leaving the store with the book I flipped it open and saw that it had been autographed! There is a god, right? I was overjoyed.

Then I read the note George had written before he signed his name: it was addressed to me. I almost fainted right there. It was like: "To nogodsforme, keep reaching for the stars, George Takei." (But it was my actual real first name.)



So, there is a god and he sometimes does random sh!t to make cheap-a$$, gay-friendly atheist Star Trek fans deliriously happy. Or there are just some really awesome coincidences out there.....it was a good day. ;D 8)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Goku

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I think the answer to the original question is dodging somewhat, though it is in line with Jesus' response to the paralysed man in  Mark 2:1-12. God see's sin as man's problem.
 Also, there might be at least one.....

Quote
Quote from: natlegend on October 18, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
Not even one? Then you are talking out your arse.

Nope, not even a single one (i must admit i rushed google...).

So i guess there is no such thing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vujicic

 

Offline Angus and Alexis

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vujicic

Not an amputee, he was born without limbs (well kinda, he has a messed up looking "chicken wing" limb thingy).

I think the answer to the original question is dodging somewhat, though it is in line with Jesus' response to the paralysed man in  Mark 2:1-12. God see's sin as man's problem.

What?
God made sin!
He should of took care of his own mess.
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Offline Goku

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Not an amputee, he was born without limbs (well kinda, he has a messed up looking "chicken wing" limb thingy).
Tushay!

Sin is to disobey God, so it is something we do by choice, not something that God chooses to do.

Offline Goku

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To flip it around
What does an atheist say about amputees?
They become a burden to those around them? Shit happens?
It is not to say that atheist do not feel love or compassion and are compelled to devote their lives to care for someone in that situation, it just seems illogical, given there is no ultimate meaning to life.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Sin is to disobey God, so it is something we do by choice, not something that God chooses to do.

I swear, if you say homosexuality is a choice, i will castrate you.

What does an atheist say about amputees?

They are unfortunate people who have limbs removed for varying reasons ranging from a horrible accident to a deliberate attack.

They become a burden to those around them? Shit happens?

A mild burden, yes.
But a child with no major defects itself is a burden.

It is not to say that atheist do not feel love or compassion and are compelled to devote their lives to care for someone in that situation, it just seems illogical, given there is no ultimate meaning to life.



Long story short, atheists are not heartless monsters who view life as nothing more than...nothing.
Please remember that the only criteria of "atheist" is the lack of a belief in a deity.
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Offline Goku

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Long story short, atheists are not heartless monsters who view life as nothing more than...nothing.
Please remember that the only criteria of "atheist" is the lack of a belief in a deity.
Long story short, for me to not believe in a deity is to break life down to matter and energy and leave morality to being relative. Therefore, why should anyone 'care' about an amputee?

Offline Anfauglir

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Long story short, atheists are not heartless monsters who view life as nothing more than...nothing.
Please remember that the only criteria of "atheist" is the lack of a belief in a deity.
Long story short, for me to not believe in a deity is to break life down to matter and energy and leave morality to being relative. Therefore, why should anyone 'care' about an amputee?

You miss the point of the question.  Do you believe your god intervenes in ANY way in the world?  If so, why does he never intervene for amputees?  If not, why should I care about your god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?