Author Topic: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.  (Read 9539 times)

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Offline neopagan

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^^^ He stumped god...?
{sorry}
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline screwtape

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I actually met him once.  He was out doing missionary work door to door.  When I opened the door, I knocked him over by accident.  As he laid there, in front of the door he introduced himself.  He said, " Hi, my name is..." and I interrupted him.  I said, "Matt?"
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Offline neopagan

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I could have sworn he said his name was "Bob" when we met on a cruise ship this summer... poor chap tumbled off
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Anfauglir

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I met a quadruple amputee on that same ship.  He jumped over the side, swam to Bob, and towed him back to the ship.

Clever Dick.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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After winning an award, we told the quadruple amputee to take a stand.

These jokes seem rather mean... ;D
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Offline William

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These jokes seem rather mean... ;D

Not as mean as feeding them religion and then asking them to tithe  :blank:
Git mit uns

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Good point, forcing someone into a religion under hidden threat of eternal pain is worse.
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Offline Shaffy

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God does not perform miracles for anyone. The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died. I know things happen that can't be explained, like someone overcoming cancer, which are miracles in the sense that they can't be explained, but God did not play a part in them. He does not do magic tricks to strengthen peoples faith. You either believe his word is truth or you don't, he doesn't do special favors to try and sway peoples beliefs, although some would like to think so because it makes them feel special.These are just my thoughts. :o

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Offline William

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The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died.

Not true. Here is a miracle after Jesus died:

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John 21:  6 And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.
Git mit uns

Offline William

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And after Jesus flew off to heaven the miracle party tricks continued:

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Acts 9:40-41
40 Peter sent everyone out of the room and kneeled and prayed. Then he turned to the body and said, “Tabitha, stand up.” She opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up.  41 He gave her his hand and helped her up. Then he called the saints and the widows into the room and showed them that Tabitha was alive.
Git mit uns

Offline Nick

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God does not perform miracles for anyone. The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died. I know things happen that can't be explained, like someone overcoming cancer, which are miracles in the sense that they can't be explained, but God did not play a part in them. He does not do magic tricks to strengthen peoples faith. You either believe his word is truth or you don't, he doesn't do special favors to try and sway peoples beliefs, although some would like to think so because it makes them feel special.These are just my thoughts. :o

-Shaffy
So I guess the "ask and you shall receive" thing was just God having a good laugh?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline median

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God does not perform miracles for anyone. The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died. I know things happen that can't be explained, like someone overcoming cancer, which are miracles in the sense that they can't be explained, but God did not play a part in them. He does not do magic tricks to strengthen peoples faith. You either believe his word is truth or you don't, he doesn't do special favors to try and sway peoples beliefs, although some would like to think so because it makes them feel special.These are just my thoughts. :o

-Shaffy

Welcome to the forum.

Respectfully, Mark 16 and John 14 speak directly against this notion that "miracles ended with the prophets". In fact, it's a modern tactic to avoid refutation since Christians know they can't perform Jesus' alleged command. It doesn't say, "Anybody standing here will do what I do". It says anyone who believes (aka - anybody). I know this is inconvenient for your theology but that is the plain reading of what the text states. If you believe in Jesus, then you WILL be able to do the kinds of works he allegedly did and greater (handling poisonous snakes and not being effected, raising the dead, moving mountains etc). It says, "he that believeth on me..." [speaking of anyone who believes shall do miracles when he asks in Jesus' name]. In fact, Paul even attempts to testify to this by speaking to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 2, telling them that their faith ought not rest in persuasive words of speech but in the demonstration of the "power" of the 'holy spirit'. 1 Cor 12 also testifies to the church being setup (into the future) with those who do miracles and healings.

http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/miracles.html
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online nogodsforme

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^^^^So, people should not believe the bible when it says that there should be miracles. I agree. And once you go there, why believe anything that the bible says? Why believe the parts that describe miracles performed by Jesus, for example?

What about the miracle that Christianity has spread throughout the world, despite starting out a persecuted minority sect of Judaism? We have been told here many, many times that this is the world's #1 religion, still here after 2000 years, and that is clearly a miracle of the one true god. Nothing to do with the vast extent of the Roman Empire and the later colonization by Europeans of most of the world, both of which had more to do with the spread of Christianity than magic. Given a choice between adopting a religion or being slaughtered along with my family and friends, I would probably take the religion, too. [1]

Also, the "no miracles after Jesus" line means that every Christian who says that they have experienced miracles in their personal lives is either a willful liar, insane or honestly deluded. Which is it?
 1. These same people will attribute the much faster spread of Islam and the persistence of far older faiths like polytheistic Hinduism (and well, Judaism) to lies, delusions, being forced to convert at gunpoint by powerful groups, and......demons.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Christians will continue to have a really hard time with this because b/c they know they cannot perform what Jesus allegedly said they should perform (if they believed), so they jump to a different interpretation (to avoid refutation and due to their assumption that their bible cannot be in error anywhere) and by doing so they ignore or rationalize the plain reading of the text (i.e. - the parts that clearly clash with their 'new' theological scapegoat), and they often do this by clinging to twisted readings of other passages (like 'tongues will cease...' in 1 Cor 13 etc). All of this is just another example of how religion evolves in order to appear relevant. In doing so, though, it has to sacrifice it's theology (piece by piece) and twist and contort it's own shanty texts to hold on. LAME.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online nogodsforme

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^^^Islam is trying hard not to do this-- no translations of the Quran are considered the real deal, everything must be taken literally, apostasy is punishable by death, etc. At the same time, Muslims are living in a rapidly changing world, surrounded by and using modern technology, exposed to all kinds of different beliefs. Imagine if a billion Christians today followed Amish beliefs, and were living in countries run by military dictators with high tech weaponry.[1]

Younger Muslims are struggling with trying to make a medieval faith (which was highly scientifically advanced, socially liberal and economically progressive-- for 1250 CE) fit into the 21st century. So far the response from most of their leaders to contradictions between the real world and the holy text of Allah is to double down on the blasphemers and infidels even more. Like when your house is being burned and sacked by looters, you can't afford to tolerate dissension within the family.

Which means that Islam is way overdue for its Reformation....and it won't be any prettier or more reasonable than the Christian one. Instead of three or four different sects of Islam, there will be thousands, all disagreeing with each other....:P
 1. This is an amusing and disturbing contradiction-- the decadent west and its secular lifestyles are anathema to the Osama bin Ladens of the world, but they are happy to use the modern computers, bombs, guns, planes and communications technology. Hell, Osama was ranting about how evil modern stuff was.....on youtube videos available for download worldwide.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline charlie24

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If you woke up one morning and every amputee on earth was completely restored would everyone believe there is a God. Of course not! So how could this be?
Because disbelief in God doesn't come from his seemingly absence of power, or lack of his knowledge, or the fact that no one has ever physically seen him. These are all excuses for the real problem. Let me quickly explain.
God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem: God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle. If we accept God, we must change that rotten lifestyle. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.
 



 

Offline Angus and Alexis

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If you woke up one morning and every amputee on earth was completely restored would everyone believe there is a God. Of course not! So how could this be?
Because disbelief in God doesn't come from his seemingly absence of power, or lack of his knowledge, or the fact that no one has ever physically seen him. These are all excuses for the real problem. Let me quickly explain.
God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem: God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle. If we accept God, we must change that rotten lifestyle. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.

I made this giant massive awesome post, but i accidentally closed my browser...

I'm just going to summarize it.



See this, you idiot.

Your opinion is meaningless, and should have no authority on anything here.
Edited.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 05:02:36 AM by Angus and Alexis »
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Offline Astreja

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God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem: God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle...
Charlie, let Me break the bad news to you as gently as possible.

There has never on this planet existed even one mortal as evil as your alleged god.  According to the rubbish mythology known as the Bible, your imaginary fiend drowned all living things except for Noah's family and a magic boat full of animals; ordered the Israelites to exterminate entire nations such as the Amalekites; set up its own son as a human sacrifice; and intends to torture its enemies for eternity.

That isn't "conscience" in any meaningful or sane sense, and the god of the Bible is unworthy of your attentions.  Even if it did exist (which I rather doubt), I see it as the kind of god that would be removing limbs rather than restoring them.  Why have you subjugated your precious humanity to such a hideous myth?  Because of a promise of eternal life?  Think of the track record of the god making the promise before you invest any more hope in that particular stock.
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Offline charlie24

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I appreciate your opinion, however you have taken "conscience" out of context from my meaning.
Do you know why God destroyed those people?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Conscience is just chemicals and electrons going through mushy tissue beneath your skull.

Not a magical god related thing.
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Offline charlie24

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Explain how those chemicals and electrons let you know that what you just did was wrong. That little voice in the skull is the conscience that divides right from wrong. No science in that.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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That little "voice" in your head is the result of electrons and neurons forming the mind.

What determines right from wrong is culture, teachings, personality, religion, and mentality.

Which is why some countries allow stoning and why some do not.

There is no absolute.
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Offline charlie24

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The reason some countries still stone is because they are still living under Old Testament Law, (Moses Law, in the Jews case), the ten commandments. When Jesus came he did away with Moses Law, and declared the just shall live by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. That's why the Jews wouldn't accept him, he was changing the law.
If you check up on these countries you will see none of them believe Jesus is the Christ, as a nation that is. All countries have some believers, even Israel.

Offline charlie24

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As far as the conscience goes, we are both fishing in a dried up creek. It's the age old debate of evolution vs creation. I believe the Bible and you don't, and so on. I just agree to disagree.
I believe it's just where God wants it. That's where the faith comes in.

Offline Hatter23

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The reason some countries still stone is because they are still living under Old Testament Law, (Moses Law, in the Jews case), the ten commandments. When Jesus came he did away with Moses Law, and declared the just shall live by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. That's why the Jews wouldn't accept him, he was changing the law.
If you check up on these countries you will see none of them believe Jesus is the Christ, as a nation that is. All countries have some believers, even Israel.

Matthew 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



On 21 May 2008 that in Kenya a mob had burnt to death at least 11 people accused of witchcraft. They do so for religious reasons. They were Christian.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline G-Roll

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If you woke up one morning and every amputee on earth was completely restored would everyone believe there is a God. Of course not! So how could this be?
Eh... that would be a hard one to explain. Let's say that I would be more open to the idea that a god or gods existed because that would be some hard evidence of them actually being real. Are you waiting for a mass amputee healing?

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Because disbelief in God doesn't come from his seemingly absence of power, or lack of his knowledge, or the fact that no one has ever physically seen him.
No? Yet those are some good reasons not to believe! Because if you follow the evidence that’s what you find.

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These are all excuses for the real problem. Let me quickly explain.
I can't wait.

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God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem:
The problem is (according to you) that god created your mind to convince you that you are a piece of shit. God doesn’t live in my mind so I have no need to hate myself for being a mere human. Yes I fall short of my own expectations from time to time but I am sure no Christian can claim the same thing. Right?

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God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle. If we accept God, we must change that rotten lifestyle.
Yes because a murder in prison who happens to have been Christian his whole life is a better person than an atheist scientist who actually tries to heal amputees. You judge people by their faith rather than their works. And that makes no since to me. Who are you to claim that a Muslim who runs a homeless shelter or an atheist who volunteers in soup kitchens lives a rotten lifestyle because they don’t think jesus is awesome and the greatest thing that ever was?
Do you feel they are incapable of being a good person just because they don’t share your world view? Or do you just worry that your omni benevolent god will smite them just because they didn’t drink his Kool-Aid regardless of their great works here on earth? 

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Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I suppose I am one of those who silences my conscience? Actually shouldn’t we thank Adam, Eve, and the Serpent for our conciseness? Genesis makes it quite clear that your god wanted you to be a stupid hairless ape with no knowledge of good and evil. Your god wasn’t happy at all when Adam and Eve ate the fruit and learned the difference of good and evil. When they obtained the consciousness you speak of. God cursed all of mankind for their consciousness so why would you attribute consciousness to Yahweh?
Hail Satan, thanks for giving me a conscience against Charlies gods will!

I'm an atheist and that’s my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 09:41:49 AM by G-Roll »

Online Dante

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It's the age old debate of evolution vs creation. I believe the Bible and you don't, and so on. I just agree to disagree.

You have to agree to disagree, because you're wrong. We have mountains of evidence on our side, while you have nothing at all, save words in a dusty old book.

Enjoy your willfull ignorance.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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The reason some countries still stone is because they are still living under Old Testament Law, (Moses Law, in the Jews case), the ten commandments. When Jesus came he did away with Moses Law, and declared the just shall live by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. That's why the Jews wouldn't accept him, he was changing the law.
If you check up on these countries you will see none of them believe Jesus is the Christ, as a nation that is. All countries have some believers, even Israel.

Ohh look, the old testament argument, that is so rare (PS: it isnt).
Simply put, a god that has to revise his own holy book, if it existed, is not worthy of worship.

As far as the conscience goes, we are both fishing in a dried up creek. It's the age old debate of evolution vs creation. I believe the Bible and you don't, and so on. I just agree to disagree.
I believe it's just where God wants it. That's where the faith comes in.

I disagree that you should agree to disagree (whoa...thats a headspin...).
By disagreeing that the conscience is just chemicals and electrons going around your brain, you disagree with reality.
In other words, you are being idiotic...
Remember "Faith is believing in things without evidence". Which can be harmless, but is not the thing to do when it comes to scientific studies, biology, anatomy, and morals.
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Offline Anfauglir

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. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So yif we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.

...and that's all it is.  And because you admit you cannot prove or demonstrate your god, you give me no more reason to believe you and your holy book over any of the thousands of others there have Ben throughout history.

Why should I believe in your Yahweh, when I know that Atum created the world.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?