Author Topic: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.  (Read 9757 times)

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Online skeptic54768

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Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Jag

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The question is based on a false assumption that God is supposed to never allow anyone to suffer.

^^^No, it isn't. This is why we won't be shutting down the website. The false assumption you refer to has nothing whatsoever to do with the question.

Looks like you haven't gotten around to reading your bible yet, have you? If you had, you wouldn't have made that silly mistake. You really ought to read it if you plan to keep talking with us about it. That seems like the honest thing to do.

 ;D
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.

Your answer is invalid and utter hogwash.
So, no.
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Online skeptic54768

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Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.

Your answer is invalid and utter hogwash.
So, no.

how is it invalid?

Jesus said not to care about earthly and fleshly desires.
Restoring a limb is an earthly & fleshly desire.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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The bible states that ANYTHING you wish for will happen.
No ifs, buts, whys, or nos.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.
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Online skeptic54768

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The bible states that ANYTHING you wish for will happen.
No ifs, buts, whys, or nos.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.

Bible does not state that.
God is not a gumball machine.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but it does.

Quote
Mark 11:24 ESV

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Now what?
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Offline Nam

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Now he comes up with an idiotic interpretation (his or someone else's), or just ignores it. He usually ignores when Bible verses proving him wrong appear.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Aaron123

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Bible does not state that.
God is not a gumball machine.

Translation: God will do nothing, and we should never expect him to do anything.

So why pray at all?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Graybeard

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Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What does he mean by "win at life"? Does he mean "Lie there like a vegetable but smiling."? or "Become a billionaire."? or  more likely, he doesn't know what he means.

Can we name some amputees who have "Won at life"? And what percentage of the whole is that?

However, the pastor has presupposed there is a god and that it is the god he thinks he worships and makes money out of.

Out of the 5,000+ gods, he seems very confident that this one is working for us; and working in such a mysterious way that he can be left out of any statement and the statement will remain the same.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline screwtape

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We all suffer my friend.

congratulations.  You are a buddhist.
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Offline screwtape

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Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

You really didn't.  You failed to even grasp the premise of the question.  Have you even read the explanation of the question on the site?
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Offline natlegend

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but it does.

Quote
Mark 11:24 ESV

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Now what?

The bible states that ANYTHING you wish for will happen.
No ifs, buts, whys, or nos.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.

Bible does not state that.
God is not a gumball machine.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.

Come come, my Skeptic friend, answer the obvious question you've been dodging for soooooo long...

WHY WON'T YOUR GOD HEAL AMPUTEES???
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where God should have come up and said hello. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you fucking turn up and say well done." - Eddie Izzard

You keep using that word. I do not think it means

Offline changeagentnow

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When my son was three he asked me for a pocket knife and I told him "no". I love him and knew he would be better off without it.  Now, of course, not having legs is a different matter, but the principle that a loving father does not give a child that they love everything they ask for seems reasonable - my son will have a more satisfying life without certain things.

I believe you are incorrect by quoting this one verse without looking at other complimentary verses in the bible that shed additional light, by stating there are no "ifs ands or buts" regarding God answering our prayers. One other bible passage that comes to mind regarding prayer is this one.  1 John 5:14-15. "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us." God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer, like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan, or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

On another note, here are some additional things to consider...
Nick Vujicic is not an amputee, but he was born without limbs.  If you have never seen one of his videos, they are worth a look.


This marine seems to have a pretty fulfilling marriage, better than an average married couple, although he now has no limbs.


Offline Angus and Alexis

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Congrats, Nick is a theist who was born without limbs and had god hammered into his brain.
This proves what exactly?

To the other link, the marine, i doubt he would say with a smile "I enjoy having no limbs".
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Offline Anfauglir

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Silliness.

God never said life will be an easy breezy walk in the park. The Bible says that the sun shines on the just and unjust and the rain falls on the just and unjust.

Jesus said not to care about earthly and fleshly desires.
Restoring a limb is an earthly & fleshly desire.

skeptic54768., you have entirely misunderstood the point of the WWGHA question.  Though it is, of course, possible that we simply do not understand your particular brand of theology.  Perhaps you would answer these questions, which may help us to understand each other?

Firstly, does the god you believe in heal ANY ailments?  Cancers, colds, wounds of any kind?

Secondly, does your god intervene in the world in ANY way, to help people?  Does he send Samaritans to the aid of those in distress - literally send them, by deliberately placing signs or messages?  Does he lead people to lost possessions?  Does your god alter the world in any way to aid those who believe in him?

If the answers to any of the above is "yes", please can you explain in what way an amputee is different, such that your god will NEVER heal them?

If the answers to all of the above is a resounding "no", how can you tell if your god exists at all?  If every plea to him goes unanswered, how is the world different from one where there is no god at all?

THAT is the point of the WWGHA? question.  An awful lot of Christians don't understand the question, so you are by no means alone.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Dante

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When my son was three he asked me for a pocket knife and I told him "no". I love him and knew he would be better off without it.  Now, of course, not having legs is a different matter, but the principle that a loving father does not give a child that they love everything they ask for seems reasonable - my son will have a more satisfying life without certain things.

So, it's your contention that amputees will have a more satisfying life without limbs? WTF is wrong with you?

You theists can rationalize anything, just so your precious faith in skydaddy never wavers. Christ man, engage your brain.

Quote
God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer

Then you might as well pray to a jug of milk.

Quote
like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan

So much for free will. If there's a plan, no amount of prayer could change it, so, ergo, no free will.

Quote
or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

One wouldn't think limbs would be too awfully detrimental. I mean, how would you get on your knees and show your invisible sky fairy how great he is for taking away your knees without....knees?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Aaron123

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When my son was three he asked me for a pocket knife and I told him "no". I love him and knew he would be better off without it.  Now, of course, not having legs is a different matter, but the principle that a loving father does not give a child that they love everything they ask for seems reasonable - my son will have a more satisfying life without certain things.

Your son will have a more satisfying life because he doesn't have his legs?  Did I read that correctly?  Why not have your legs chopped off then?  If it's good enough for your son...


Quote
I believe you are incorrect by quoting this one verse without looking at other complimentary verses in the bible that shed additional light, by stating there are no "ifs ands or buts" regarding God answering our prayers. One other bible passage that comes to mind regarding prayer is this one.  1 John 5:14-15. "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us." God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer, like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan, or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

All this is a long-winded way of saying that we should never expect god to heal amputees.  We should never pray to god to heal amputees.  Healing prayers to god is exercise in futility.  This sounds exactly what we'd expect if god didn't exist.  if god didn't exist, we would expect him never to heal amputees, that prayers are futile, etc.  Explain how this is different (if at all).
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Online jaimehlers

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Silliness.
Yes, your belief system is silliness.  Oh, you were talking about atheism?  Could have fooled me.

Quote from: skeptic54768
God never said life will be an easy breezy walk in the park. The Bible says that the sun shines on the just and unjust and the rain falls on the just and unjust.
Life isn't a walk in the park even if you have all your body parts and senses.  So what does this have to do with anything?  Same thing with the sun shining and the rain falling.  The sun shines on everyone, and the rain falls on everyone, but most people don't have to deal with the loss or lack of a limb.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Believers don't get a free pass out of suffering. Suffering is a test of our faith. Look at how many atheists use the problem of evil as a reason for God not existing. These people failed the test. There are amputees out there who praise God every single day and don't care about their missing limbs. These passed the test.
You think suffering is a test of faith?  Sorry, but that's just plain nonsense.  Suffering happens - it isn't a test of anything - and we just cope with it when it does.  Moreover, we've come up with ways to overcome suffering, ways which you undoubtedly use every day.  Since you believe it's a test of faith, doesn't that mean that by taking medicines (which help to overcome pain) and doing other things which help you overcome suffering, you're essentially cheating on this "test of faith" of yours?

Quote from: skeptic54768
The question is based on a false assumption that God is supposed to never allow anyone to suffer. This is simply not true. Bible is flooded with examples of believers suffering hardships. True believers see it as a hill to climb. Non-believers see the hill and don't even bother to climb it.
This is flat-out wrong.  The question is based on a divine promise made to Christians, not on the fact of suffering:  "Ask, and it will be given.  Seek, and you will find.  Knock, and it will be opened to you.  For every one who asks, receives, and he who seeks, finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

Yet, this is not the case.  One who asks God for something may not be given it.  Someone who seeks knowledge from God may not find it.  Someone who knocks on God's door will often find that it remains closed.  Amputees who ask for their limbs back are invariably ignored.  And yet you think this is a mere test of faith?  That a promise God (and Jesus) made was just a test?

Quote from: skeptic54768
I have seen amputees with one hand work a job better than someone with 2 hands.
All this proves is that a person can adapt to the loss of a hand, and that the able-bodied person was probably lazy.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Look at how many people are collecting disability payments for no reason. These people need to suck it up and quit whining. There's people with one hand working 9-5 jobs and others are on the couch all day watching TV collecting free money with 2 hands with remote in one hand and chips in the other.

Just pure silliness.
Fair enough.  So does that mean you'll focus on your own job and your own life rather than trying to spread a belief in a god who doesn't answer prayers unless he feels like it (which is generally seldom) and who uses suffering to test people?  Somehow, I doubt the answer is yes.  Far more likely that you'll try to springboard from this flimsy position you set up into your usual spiel.

But while that sort of mental flexibility might be entertaining to watch, it really isn't convincing of anything.

Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.
You think you buried this question?  You didn't even try to answer it.  You just prattled on about suffering for a while and ended with the statement that people should get off of their lazy behinds and live their lives.  But you didn't answer the question, "why doesn't God heal amputees?"

Offline nogodsforme

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On the one hand, god gives us everything we need, all good gifts, life and love and peace, dude. All you have to do is ask and you will receive. Pray without ceasing. God is so powerful and awesome, he can do absolutely anything. He created the whole universe and every speck of everything in it. We are so blessed with miracles in every direction.  God is the best possible guy, most loving father, etc. So easy! Just believe. (Read in Keanu Reeves voice.)

But when we ask the kind of basic questions (that anyone of them would ask of any other religions) we start to get a much more complicated picture of this god. Like, why do some people seem to get way more than others of the good gifts, while others get what we can call negative gifts, like being born with no legs or losing a child to a terrible disease? And, assuming that all things come from god,  why do some people try to live very good lives serving god and get jack, while others do whatever they please and get lots of god's gifts unfairly.  And what exactly is a miracle, if some things just never, ever happen (people getting new legs, eyes, brain, etc.)

Some god-believing folk say that we have no way of knowing what is good and bad, fair or unfair, from god's perspective. We cannot judge anything. So, why did god make us unable to tell good from bad? Isn't the conscience the voice of god talking to us, telling us what is good and bad? And, if we cannot tell what is good and bad, how can you decide that anything god does, like creating the universe to begin with, is good?  Because the bible says it is good? How do we know that what the bible says is good, since we cannot judge what is good? And how can anything happen if it is not god's will-- isn't that impossible? How can we decide that slavery or killing all first-born babies is bad, if it is good when god does it? Good and bad have no real meaning if everything that happens is actually god's will and therefore good. (It all starts to sound pretty Buddhist.)

Others say that god could just wipe us out at anytime, so if we get anything short of that we should be grateful. God could decide to d!ck around with you, just because.  Be thankful to god for whatever you have, regardless of how horrible life is for you. If you lose a child to disease, be happy that god left you with two still alive. It could all be a test to see who is really faithful.  Remember Job. Things could be worse. Much, much worse. Wives turning into pillars of salt! Bears mauling children! Plagues of frogs! Global floods! Gahhhhhh! This is your loving father, dammit. Deal with it. (God is a scary d!ck-tator. Starts to sound very Islamic. And Judaic.)

So to account for the things that seem pretty damn bad, while keeping god pretty damn good, we have to introduce the ideal of a powerful evil character, who messes up god's perfect plan. Satan is temporarily in charge, while god is out for a few millennia getting his beard trimmed or something. And then we have to complicate the story even more with god's slacker skater-dude son showing up to run interference for god. To patch up the perfect plan that god made. Because sin. Or something. (Sounds very Microsoft.)

And if all else fails, there is the promise of a reward in heaven. The afterlife will be where the real rewards are passed out to the good people. Yeah, that's it. Then the amputees will get legs, and babies who died from malaria will be reunited with their grieving parents. Old people with dementia will get their young brains back. Unless science figures out a way to heal these folks first. Then we will thank god for it. And the bad people-- we are somehow able to judge good and bad now-- will finally get theirs. Justice, baby! (Sounds very Hindu.)

God will even everything up. Eventually. Gandhi and that Muslim girl who got shot trying to go to school go to heaven and Donald Trump and the Taliban go to hell. Or, wait. Gandhi and that girl will not go to heaven because they were not Christians. And Trump could repent on his deathbed and make it into heaven.

Unless god decides to go all hippie and kumbayah and let everyone in who tried to live a good life. In which case belief in god does not matter at all. So why are these people still coming to my door and passing out literature, and trying to change the laws of my country to reflect their religious views?

I wish all the religious folk would have a big meeting and get the final ret-con version of their story straight before taking it on the road.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer, like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan, or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

This is called rationalizing. What it means (or how it plays out) is that anytime things don't go your way you make excuses for why God didn't do anything. So anytime you pray and something happens, you praise God. But then when you pray and things get worse you lead the evidence in the direction you want it to go - all because you assumed your interpretation of the bible was the correct one. But there are lots of passages which contradict this thinking process. Jesus, in Mark 16 and John 14 quite clearly states that anyone who believes in him will do the miracles he did, and greater! In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul states clearly that his faith/belief was from the demonstration of power and not by "persuasive words of speech", which is what you are trying to do here. The simplest explanation is that these writings are just plain false. It's too bad that your religion has you so sucked in that you refuse to see the obvious truth - that your theology is self-contradictory and is therefore irrational. You have a vicious double standard that you apply generously when things conflict with what you assumed to be true from the beginning, and this is why many of us say that religion is the enemy of reason.

There simply is no good reason to think that "God hears our prayers". This very notion is indistinguishable from a scenario in which no God's exist or answers anything (as quite a few studies on prayer have shown). If you were willing to look at the evidence with an open mind it would be quite easy to see (but most of us know this is unlikely b/c most religious believers have too much on the line - too much invested or too much at stake).

The bottom line is, we don't see amputees being healed (or those born with no limbs for that matter) b/c this 'Yahweh' God of the bible isn't real (just like the man-made gods of hundreds of other religions in the world are not real either). The idea is a fabrication of gullible men living in a pre-scientific age who thought the earth was flat and that decease came from demons. It's time to grow up and accept reality as it is. There is no grown up Santa Claus!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 12:21:37 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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Mother: God heard my prayers and spared my baby's life during that awful tornado.

Reporter: And your mother?

Mother: She died.

Reporter: Did you pray for her survival?

 Mother: Yes, but God needed her so she's now in Heaven by his side.

Based on a true story.

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Offline median

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^^^ Yes, God needed here b/c he's not all-powerful and couldn't handle certain tasks on his own.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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That actually is based on a true story, didn't make it up. Tornado hit a white trash trailer park in Kansas a few years back, the mother wasn't home, and her mother was watching her daughter. The trailer was blown to pieces, the child was found alive in a tree, and the grandmother died in the trailer, and that's how she responded. (paraphrased but the overall gist)

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Offline nogodsforme

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If the baby had died and grandma had survived, it would be that god needed another little angel --for what, why does the pervert need babies and children, esp. those from poor families, by his side all the damn time? What is even worse is when a child is murdered or dies of an illness or in a horrible accident, and people say it is god's will. He called his baby home, black people say.

Any god/demon/supernatural entity out there, listen up to this black dreadlocked commie mommy: don't you call my baby home. Don't call my baby at all. Don't let me catch you dialing my baby's cell. Ever. Try that crap on my kid, worship will be the last thing you get from me....more like an a$$ whupping that would leave you in ten new dimensions. I will go all exorcist on your a$$.  >:(

That is the proper response of a parent who loves their kid. Not "my kid is not really mine, she belongs to god and he can call her home anytime...and if he told me to I would cut off her head and put her body in a trash compactor and eat her toes for dinner.....because god is love." Sheeeeeit no.

How can anyone reasonably say sh!t like that and consider themselves sane? Some scary-a$$ people out there.  :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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My Haida father,just lost a leg below the knee. A god replacing his missing limb,has never entered his mind. The fact he grew up without the God botherers in his life is a good thing. He gets along ok without it. 55 years of smoking are to blame,nothing else. My old man accepts the fact he lost his leg from his actions.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Sorry to hear about your dad.[1] My father and uncle both lost limbs to diabetes in their elder years. Both were very religious, too. But still with the drinking, smoking, etc.  :(

Kind of a native thing, the diabetes. Lost my half-native grandfather to diabetes, too.

I am currently doing the geneology thing to find our tribe for my daughter. She wants a tattoo, so I will compromise if she gets one that means something to the ancestors. :?
 1. I hear the guy Thomas from Smoke Signals saying that....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Sorry to hear about your dad.[1] My father and uncle both lost limbs to diabetes in their elder years. Both were very religious, too. But still with the drinking, smoking, etc.  :(

Kind of a native thing, the diabetes. Lost my half-native grandfather to diabetes, too.

I am currently doing the geneology thing to find our tribe for my daughter. She wants a tattoo, so I will compromise if she gets one that means something to the ancestors. :?
 1. I hear the guy Thomas from Smoke Signals saying that....
He is still as BAD-ASS as ever,what region are you from?. If you are mixed blood there may be a society near you that can help. In Canada the Metis society helps family track lineage  Good luck.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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I saw this guy talking the other day. He prayed to to God to grow arms and legs. It didn't happen. So he assumed God has a plan.

Quote
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:13

Christians, always distorting God's word.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.