Author Topic: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?  (Read 5477 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #232 on: November 03, 2013, 05:18:45 AM »
MagicMiles,

If you look in the signature of Foxy Freedom you will see you can download an ebook which answer some of these questions about the spread of Christianity. Why not download it and have a read?

I did, several days ago. I got a little way into it but the whole tone seemed very much conspiracy theorist. I might have a further look some time.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #233 on: November 03, 2013, 05:48:42 AM »
MagicMiles,

If you look in the signature of Foxy Freedom you will see you can download an ebook which answer some of these questions about the spread of Christianity. Why not download it and have a read?

I did, several days ago. I got a little way into it but the whole tone seemed very much conspiracy theorist. I might have a further look some time.

There is nothing conspiracy theorist about it. There was no conspiracy, just the natural spread of a religious idea to different cultural areas, from Jews to Romans. Religions ALWAYS spread and change.

The cultural adaptations in the religion naturally led to arguments about who was right.

Mormons and their kind are obvious modern examples of spread and change.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:25:05 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #234 on: November 03, 2013, 06:37:03 AM »
So then, why do you think the bible is "the Word of God"? Perhaps you can first start by defining your terms and then provide a standard (or criteria) which can be used consistently across the board for all claims to the miraculous or supernatural. Why does this specific collection of ancient writings hold any more weight for you (authority wise) than any other religious text from antiquity, or otherwise, which make such claims?

I could type 10,000 words on why I personally believe the bible, but a lot of it would involve detailed personal background and would no doubt bore you to tears. So I'll stick to some very broad things that I find compelling:

* God has a plan. I don't always understand it, I'm prone to thinking He should have done things differently, but when I read the OT and then the NT I can see God's plan gradually unfolding. To me, it reads as one book. It reads much, much better than any book. It fits. And given the time differences and the differences in the human authors, that's amazing to me.

* When I read the words attributed to Jesus in the NT they stand out to me. They just do. They jump off the page, they sting my mind, I simply don't have the slightest doubt that they are words of eternal knowledge and wisdom.

* Parts of the bible are just extremely bloody bizarre. You couldn't make it up. I've never read fiction that comes anywhere near to rivalling it. Starnge that may be to you, but I find it compelling.

* Last but not least, when the bible describes the sinfulness of mankind it describes me. The authors of the bible knew more about the human condition than all the great psycho-analysts of the world put together. Thousands of years ago.

Those things I have described are inescable truths, for me. There are of course many more reasons why I believe in God, but this is more or less it when it comes to the bible.
 
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #235 on: November 03, 2013, 07:33:52 AM »
* God has a plan. I don't always understand it, I'm prone to thinking He should have done things differently, but when I read the OT and then the NT I can see God's plan gradually unfolding. To me, it reads as one book. It reads much, much better than any book. It fits. And given the time differences and the differences in the human authors, that's amazing to me.

It was edited to read as one book. See Genesis 1 and 2 for editing different authors in the OT. The NT was edited and chosen by the Catholic Church. The writings which disagreed with what they wanted were left out. Some of these other writings have survived and can be read. Read some ancient gnostic writings for a completely different view of Christianity.

Newspaper editors also make sure that newspapers present a particular view, although the articles are written by different people.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #236 on: November 03, 2013, 07:39:17 AM »
* When I read the words attributed to Jesus in the NT they stand out to me. They just do. They jump off the page, they sting my mind, I simply don't have the slightest doubt that they are words of eternal knowledge and wisdom.

Wisdom? Heheh.

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #237 on: November 03, 2013, 07:47:35 AM »

* Last but not least, when the bible describes the sinfulness of mankind it describes me. The authors of the bible knew more about the human condition than all the great psycho-analysts of the world put together. Thousands of years ago.


Even a dog has a guilty conscience, anyone can see it. You don't need psychoanalysis for that.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #238 on: November 03, 2013, 07:48:11 AM »
... and remember, also, that the Ot was on the desk on the NT writers so that when they said Jesus fulfilled this or that prophecy they had probably started with the OT text and expended it to have Jesus fit the text.

Look at Matthew and his Birth Narrative - it is he who started the Mary was a virgin. Now we an be sure that Matthew used the Greek version of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX) as the word 'virgin' in that is a mi-translation of the Hebrew for 'young woman'. There are plenty of other places where this sort of thing happens.

The point is that the text of the Gospels was specifically written to make Jesus appear to be the predicted Messiah - something the Jews of his time and even the present do not accept. It was written, even Paul's letters, by people who never met Jesus and mostly were a generation or two separated from him so that what they wrote was never likely to be be argued with by those who did witness Jesus. Sure, Jesus comes up with good advice but one has to ask if this advice was available from other sources at the time or if he invented it and mostly it comes from earlier traditions and from other cultures.

That there is nothing novel in the NT and that  is a carefully crafted description of him in light of the OT predictions suggests a complete lack of input from a deity but rather the keenness of the leaders of the church to promote and run a new religion.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #239 on: November 03, 2013, 10:34:05 AM »
* Last but not least, when the bible describes the sinfulness of mankind it describes me.

This is a model of human behavior.  Just like in science there are models that help us understand how the universe works.  However, models are just representations that help us.  In science, the models are kept around only as long as we need them.  Once we learn more, we discard the old model for a new one, which has more explanatory power. 

For example, atomic models began with the Greeks, who proposed the four elements.  It did not progress much until 1803 when John Dalton measured the charges and proposed solid balls as the structure.  There was the plum pudding model, the Rutherford model, the Bohr model, etc.  Each one assimilated new facts and had more explanatory power.

The model you are working from describes human behavior.  It dates back to the Iron Age, at the latest, possibly the Bronze Age.  It holds little explanatory power.  There have been many models put forth since then and they all have more explanatory power.  Why have you not adopted a more accurate model?  It is like maintaining the atomic model put forth by the ancient Greeks.

The authors of the bible knew more about the human condition than all the great psycho-analysts of the world put together.

If you knew anything about modern psychology you would not say this.  The ancient hebrews just knew people were often selfish and cruel.  That's about it.  They had no idea why.  They had no idea of how the brain worked or biases, heuristics, etc.  There is a book called the Invisible Gorilla.  It contains more knowledge and predictive power about the human psyche than the entire bible.

So, no.  If you put all the "psychoanalysts" in the world together, they know far more than the bible about human behavior.  Your statement is an expression of your emotions, not a reflection of external reality.


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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #240 on: November 03, 2013, 11:23:33 AM »

* God has a plan. I don't always understand it, I'm prone to thinking He should have done things differently, but when I read the OT and then the NT I can see God's plan gradually unfolding. To me, it reads as one book. It reads much, much better than any book. It fits. And given the time differences and the differences in the human authors, that's amazing to me.

I bolded the part I have a particular problem with. If God indeed had a "plan," he didn't stay true to it.  There are far too many ways in which the NT completely contradicts what God commands in the OT.

Did he suddenly change his mind?  Did his plan always include changing the rules?

Also, don't forget that it was groups of men, not God, who ultimately decided what books would be included in the final edition. Also, groups of men who decided how to interpret the texts (i.e., the First Council of Nicaea).

These facts don't "jive" with the idea of a well thought out plan by an omniscient supreme being.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #241 on: November 03, 2013, 11:33:02 AM »

I could type 10,000 words on why I personally believe the bible, but a lot of it would involve detailed personal background and would no doubt bore you to tears. So I'll stick to some very broad things that I find compelling:

* God has a plan. I don't always understand it, I'm prone to thinking He should have done things differently, but when I read the OT and then the NT I can see God's plan gradually unfolding. To me, it reads as one book. It reads much, much better than any book. It fits. And given the time differences and the differences in the human authors, that's amazing to me.

So your first and "A Game" reason for thinking the bible is the 'Word of God' is just b/c you feel like it? The question I'm asking in the OP has to do with not assuming what you need to prove (i.e. - discovering that Christians believed first and then started searching to find defense mechanisms and 'reasons'). The point is, how do you know "God has a plan"? Aren't you just assuming this based upon your presupposition? And why would you try to defend your presupposition against any and all criticism? Don't you care about truth and what's actually true? I want to explore more of your standard of evidence later on.

* When I read the words attributed to Jesus in the NT they stand out to me. They just do. They jump off the page, they sting my mind, I simply don't have the slightest doubt that they are words of eternal knowledge and wisdom.

Mormons say this about the Book of Mormon and Muslims say it about the Koran, but this isn't a good reason. Is a "sting in the mind" all it takes for you then? Anything you read, if you get some 'high' or buzz you immediately jump to the conclusion that it's divine? So, you don't really care about disinterested research. You just care about how something makes you FEEL when you read it?

* Parts of the bible are just extremely bloody bizarre. You couldn't make it up. I've never read fiction that comes anywhere near to rivalling it. Starnge that may be to you, but I find it compelling.

This is the Argument from Incredulity fallacy. It does not follow that because you can't imagine how someone could have thought up something, and wrote it down, that they could not have done it.

This answer is also extremely non-informative and redundant. I asked, "Why do you believe the bible" and you basically answered, "I just believe it." No, I want to know why. What good reasons or sound evidence do you have? Or is it all just blind a priori faith for you? It seems like you just assume it. Is this true?

* Last but not least, when the bible describes the sinfulness of mankind it describes me. The authors of the bible knew more about the human condition than all the great psycho-analysts of the world put together. Thousands of years ago.

Those things I have described are inescable truths, for me. There are of course many more reasons why I believe in God, but this is more or less it when it comes to the bible.

It's interesting that you didn't give any sound reasons or evidence here. So you basically didn't answer the question. All you did was restate "I believe it" but what reasonable thing could possibly falsify this assumption you seem to have made? You've said it describes "sinfulness" but this is viciously circular. How do you know there is "sin" in the first place? See how you've avoided answering the main question? You've just kicked the ball further down the field instead of actually dealing with the challenge. You've said, "The authors of the bible knew more..." STOP! You're doing it again - assuming your position prior to proving it. How do you know they knew more? And even if that was true does it automatically make every supernatural claim in the bible true?

So in total, you've basically avoided the question I asked and just restated THAT you believe it. I know that you believe it, it makes you feel good, it seems to resonate with you, and the words "just do" stand out for you. Are you saying that your method for determining if a book is true or not is just how the book makes you feel inside? Have your feelings ever been mistaken? Where is your standard of evidence? Doesn't it seem odd to you that when it comes to claims of the supernatural you seem to lower your standard of evidence, instead of raise it, for the one belief you want to believe? For any other religion or text you wouldn't accept 'how it makes you feel' as sound reasoning for believing it's supernatural claims, would you?

SUMMARY OF YOUR RESPONSE:

1. Circular Reasoning - You claim "God has a plan", basically restating a part of your theology which is smuggling your conclusion into your premise
2. Non-Informative Tautology - Words 'standing out' or "resonating" with you does not make them true. You've only restated THAT you believe here.
3. An Argument from Incredulity - The statement "They couldn't have made it up" requires a lack of imagination and another unwarranted assumption
4. Circular Reasoning again - assuming "sin" is real and the authors "knew more" is another attempt to smuggle the conclusion into your premises

These arguments are invalid. Are they your strongest ones for believing the bible is divinely inspired? Perhaps I should ask a more important question. Are you at all open to considering that you might be mistaken about the bible? If your answer is YES, can you see why it would be hard to believe you, given the irrational arguments you are using to support your belief currently? How could anyone falsify the belief that the bible is divine when you've assumed it is divine from the outset? Don't you see this intellectual double standard?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 11:37:52 AM by median »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #242 on: November 03, 2013, 09:08:16 PM »
As I understood it, the question was why I believed the bible was the word of God. I have listed reasons. I greatly summarised those reasons, certainly, but they are in essence my reasons. You seem to be expecting me to put forward reasons for why you should accept the bible as God's word. I cannot possibly do that.

Of course, I could list all manner of apologetic arguments about why it is reasonable for anybody to accept that the bible is the word of God. But I see little point in doing that, as you know them all and refute them all.

Is it your position that, because you don't believe it, I shouldn't? Is it your position that only the arguments that you personally consider valid are actually valid? Would it make any sense at all, would it be honest, if I was personally swayed by arguments for the bible but rejected them because many people aren't swayed by them?

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #243 on: November 03, 2013, 11:22:08 PM »
So then, why do you think the bible is "the Word of God"? Perhaps you can first start by defining your terms and then provide a standard (or criteria) which can be used consistently across the board for all claims to the miraculous or supernatural. Why does this specific collection of ancient writings hold any more weight for you (authority wise) than any other religious text from antiquity, or otherwise, which make such claims?

I could type 10,000 words on why I personally believe the bible, but a lot of it would involve detailed personal background and would no doubt bore you to tears. So I'll stick to some very broad things that I find compelling:

* God has a plan. I don't always understand it, I'm prone to thinking He should have done things differently, but when I read the OT and then the NT I can see God's plan gradually unfolding. To me, it reads as one book. It reads much, much better than any book. It fits. And given the time differences and the differences in the human authors, that's amazing to me.

* When I read the words attributed to Jesus in the NT they stand out to me. They just do. They jump off the page, they sting my mind, I simply don't have the slightest doubt that they are words of eternal knowledge and wisdom.

* Parts of the bible are just extremely bloody bizarre. You couldn't make it up. I've never read fiction that comes anywhere near to rivalling it. Starnge that may be to you, but I find it compelling.

* Last but not least, when the bible describes the sinfulness of mankind it describes me. The authors of the bible knew more about the human condition than all the great psycho-analysts of the world put together. Thousands of years ago.

Those things I have described are inescable truths, for me. There are of course many more reasons why I believe in God, but this is more or less it when it comes to the bible.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #244 on: November 04, 2013, 12:23:31 AM »
What does that have to do with the post you quoted?
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #245 on: November 04, 2013, 02:11:39 AM »
If God give you cancer and changes your plans for life,will you try to change his plan by seeking medical treatment,or change his mind with prayer......or accept his will?

The most annoying issue with the "gods plan" thingamajig, is that no matter what you do, it was planned.

Be it from curing cancer, or stopping that kid from being hit by a car, it was planned.

So why not take out the middleman (god) and just say that everything is just...well...everything just is how it is.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #246 on: November 04, 2013, 02:50:34 AM »
As I understood it, the question was why I believed the bible was the word of God. I have listed reasons. I greatly summarised those reasons, certainly, but they are in essence my reasons. You seem to be expecting me to put forward reasons for why you should accept the bible as God's word. I cannot possibly do that.

Of course, I could list all manner of apologetic arguments about why it is reasonable for anybody to accept that the bible is the word of God. But I see little point in doing that, as you know them all and refute them all.

Is it your position that, because you don't believe it, I shouldn't? Is it your position that only the arguments that you personally consider valid are actually valid? Would it make any sense at all, would it be honest, if I was personally swayed by arguments for the bible but rejected them because many people aren't swayed by them?

If you are persuaded by irrational arguments doesn't that say something about your bias toward confirmation? If you hold irrational reasons (i.e. - logically fallacious reasons, etc) for believing the bible is the word of a god how could it be demonstrated to you and what would you do about it? I haven't asked you for reasons that I would accept. I've simply asked you for your reasons (and as I noted above you gave irrational ones - ones pertaining to personal 'feelings', tautologies, etc, etc.). An interesting thing about your response is that you admit that I already know the apologetic arguments you could give and that I know them and refute them (which I do and have done). That's quite funny b/c if I have refuted them (in your mind) why would you continue to just believe when it has become clear that the theologies of that book have been refuted? Do your personal feelings trump sound reasoning then?

Another way of putting it is this. What demonstration of reasoning could ever persuade you that the bible is either in error (not perfect), factually inaccurate, irrational, unreliable or generally not the word of some alleged "God" thing if you have already wholly committed yourself to it's defense no matter what (based upon nothing demonstrable in the first place)? Don't you see your double standard here? You don't go off of just feeling when reading other books, do you? I asked this before. Do you claim to be perfect and/or infallible? And if so, how might this be demonstrated to you. If you have ever been wrong about a feeling you thought you had then it is entirely possible that you are mistaken in your self-diagnoses regarding the bible. This is why we do not accept personal "experience" as evidence that our hallucinations are real. Personal interpretations of personal feelings are unreliable for determining whether or not texts are factually correct.

Lastly, there is not "my valid/your valid" argument. Logic simply is, and it applies to all arguments. What I want is you to be honest enough to admit when you have irrational reasons for thinking the bible is the word of a god (especially reasons which point to claims that are not demonstrable and which you apply inconsistently).
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #247 on: November 04, 2013, 03:15:16 AM »
Refute was the wrong word to use. I meant reject.

More later.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #248 on: November 04, 2013, 04:20:44 AM »
As I understood it, the question was why I believed the bible was the word of God. I have listed reasons. I greatly summarised those reasons, certainly, but they are in essence my reasons. You seem to be expecting me to put forward reasons for why you should accept the bible as God's word. I cannot possibly do that.

So in summary then: you have no case whatsoever why the Bible should be accepted by any other person.

Does it not strike you as somewhat bizarre that the single book connecting the One True God to his creation, is a thing that either strkes a chord or doesn't?  That either gives someone a tingly feeling, or it does not?  What you are basically saying is that - for billions of people around the world and throughout history - if they don't "get" the Bible, they are stuffed because there is no rational explanation for them to believe it?

Given the stakes for which we are playing here, that seems a parricularly arbitrary way for people to come to faith.

Question: if I read (say) the sagas of Norse Mythology and found that they ticked all the emotional buttons for me.....would I be correct to believe them?  There is a plan there (Ragnarok), the words jump put at me, some of the stories are bizarre, and it speaks to me about the human condition.  Check, check, check, check.  So surely I am just as "right" to believe the Sagas as you are to believe the Bible?

You are correct.  You have NOT given any reason whatsoever for us to accept your chosen book over any other.  So I'll ask again - does that not seem incredibly weird to you that your god decided to extend the offer of salvation in such an arbitrary and haphazrd way?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #249 on: November 04, 2013, 04:41:12 AM »
Well, let's look at this way..... There are various holy books available -
  • the Bible
  • The Qur'an
  • The Mormon Scriptures
To an outsider these books appear to be just books written by men. The question is why is it that some people say the bible is the real holy book whilst others say the other books are the real deal. How do we tell the difference?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #250 on: November 04, 2013, 04:55:21 AM »
Well, let's look at this way..... There are various holy books available -
  • the Bible
  • The Qur'an
  • The Mormon Scriptures
To an outsider these books appear to be just books written by men. The question is why is it that some people say the bible is the real holy book whilst others say the other books are the real deal. How do we tell the difference?

The Bible says it's real, and they're all fakes, duh.

;)

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #251 on: November 04, 2013, 06:05:44 AM »
How do we tell the difference?

Well the bible says it is the right one.

Why not believe it?
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #252 on: November 04, 2013, 06:33:04 AM »
How do we tell the difference?

Well the bible says it is the right one.

Why not believe it?

Doesn't the Qur'an say the same - and the Book of Mormon...?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #253 on: November 04, 2013, 07:10:46 AM »
Nah, obviously they are just using metaphors.

I used my super special decoder ring to find out.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #254 on: November 04, 2013, 07:14:19 AM »
I'm surprised nobody has posted this image before. As a god, I guess it's My job to do it for you.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #255 on: November 04, 2013, 07:22:42 AM »
I have had that on my PC for ages XD.



I also have this one.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #256 on: November 04, 2013, 08:35:21 AM »
Brilliant cartoon!!! thanks  :D
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #257 on: November 04, 2013, 11:25:52 AM »
Well, let's look at this way..... There are various holy books available -
  • the Bible
  • The Qur'an
  • The Mormon Scriptures
To an outsider these books appear to be just books written by men. The question is why is it that some people say the bible is the real holy book whilst others say the other books are the real deal. How do we tell the difference?

Christians don't want to apply consistent standards of evidence because if they did it would mean 'bye-bye' for their precious bible which they assumed was true from the outset (which we just saw with magicmiles). Notice how he didn't provide any demonstrable evidence or sound reasons for thinking the bible is the word of a 'God', thing. And this is very typical. Christians do not come to believe the bible (and certain theology) b/c of research or disinterested study (which you would expect with the most important book on earth, supposedly). They ASSUME it is true based on a mere FEELING, just like the Mormons ('fixing' themselves to it with pre-commitment) and then go about trying to defend it against any and all criticism or demonstration of error. In fact, they assume it is true prior to reading it! This is consistent with nearly every major religion on the planet. They start with their conclusion (due to some pastor or church service) and then attempt to work backwards - trying to bend, twist, squash, and manipulate any and all evidence/counter-evidence to fit their pre-commitment. And the funny thing is, they are practicing utter hypocrisy and cant' see it. They wouldn't do this with any other text except their first choice (Bible, Koran, BOM) and the story gets even more bizarrely irrational when an outsider can demonstrate that their alleged holy book is irrational, in error, and nonsense yet they continue deflecting, twisting, spinning, and rationalizing in order to maintain the pre-commitment they made. How ironic for a group that claims to value honesty, huh?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #258 on: November 04, 2013, 11:42:47 AM »
MagicMiles,

If you look in the signature of Foxy Freedom you will see you can download an ebook which answer some of these questions about the spread of Christianity. Why not download it and have a read?

I did, several days ago. I got a little way into it but the whole tone seemed very much conspiracy theorist. I might have a further look some time.

I looked at the pdf at the site. It has errors:

The link leads to this passage on page 4
Quote
If we go back about fifteen years to Luke’s gospel, Jesus was not an eternal being who was an aspect of God but an adopted son who was adopted at the time of his baptism. Luke 3;21-22 “when Jesus also had been baptized ...a voice came from heaven ....”today I have begotten thee.” These last words are now usually in a footnote because they do not agree with some modern Christian ideas about who Jesus was. We have only gone back fifteen years and already we have seen different ideas about who Jesus was.

KJV1611:
Lu:3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Lu:3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Geneva Bible 1599 (The Geneva Bible is filled with footnotes and there is none for the Luke verse.)
Lu:3:21 Now it came to pass, as all the people were baptized, and that Jesus was baptized and did pray, that the heaven was opened,
Lu:3:22 And the holy Ghost came down in a bodily shape like a dove, upon him, and there was a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

Wycliffe Bible 1384
Lu:3:21 And it was don, whanne al the puple was baptised, and whanne Jhesu was baptised, and preiede, heuene was openyd.
22 And the Hooli Goost cam doun in bodili licnesse, as a dowue on hym; and a vois was maad fro heuene, Thou art my derworth[1] sone, in thee it hath plesid to me.

Vulgate:

Lu:3:21 [factum est autem cum baptizaretur omnis populus et Iesu baptizato et orante apertum est caelum] Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened.   
Lu:3:22 [et descendit Spiritus Sanctus corporali specie sicut columba in ipsum et vox de caelo facta est tu es Filius meus dilectus in te conplacuit mihi] And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove, upon him. And a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son. In thee I am well pleased.


You will see that nothing of the sort appears in Luke, nor are there any missing footnotes. What there is however, is

Heb:1 In which the writer argues by rhetorical questions that Jesus is God's son and higher than angels: Heb:1:5: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

The writer asks, "Did God ever say of any angel that that angel was his son?" - to which the answer is "No."

If there is a footnote, it is to this verse that it refers to.
 1. From the Oxford English Dictionary - Dearly esteemed, dear, beloved.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline natlegend

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #259 on: February 15, 2014, 07:12:49 PM »
Sorry for the necromancy....

NGFM
Quote
timecube.com

THE EARTH IS A CUBE!!!

Well, according to the nutter 'Dr' Gene Ray, self-proclaimed wisest man on earth.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where God should have come up and said hello. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you fucking turn up and say well done." - Eddie Izzard

You keep using that word. I do not think it means

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #260 on: February 16, 2014, 02:17:56 PM »
Sorry for the necromancy....

NGFM
Quote
timecube.com

THE EARTH IS A CUBE!!!

Well, according to the nutter 'Dr' Gene Ray, self-proclaimed wisest man on earth.

And it's inhabited by Flatsy dolls! Ahhhhhhieeeee!

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.