Author Topic: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?  (Read 3742 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #145 on: October 22, 2013, 09:05:59 PM »
A funeral is held one day, 50,000 people attend. A funeral is held the next day, 100 people attend.

Which person was probably better known, in your opinion?

Just answer that, if you can. Then we'll go further.
Elvis or the Pope or Kennedy would have 50K people attend because of popularity of the person. If Lady GAGA died tomorrow and the funeral was held in a place for 100K people 100K people would show up to pay their respect.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #146 on: October 22, 2013, 09:06:32 PM »
12M, I am not an expert on the Canonisation process. I simply don't know. However, the fact that there are writings about Jesus beyond the biblical inclusions simply emphasises the point I am trying to make here: that it is likely Jesus was not just your usual preacher.
As a Haida we have had stories of Raven,Eagle and of other supernatural beings,passed on for 12,000 years or more here on the northwest coast of our world. None of our writings(totems are a form of written stories) mention a Messiah named Jesus,as do none of the many cultures around the world.

 Storytellers are going to tell the stories they have knowledge of,passed down from, the generations before. One of the reasons our "stories" have almost disappeared from the timeline is because of your ancestors viewed us as heathens and killed us by the thousands.

Irrelevant to my point.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #147 on: October 22, 2013, 09:07:41 PM »
A funeral is held one day, 50,000 people attend. A funeral is held the next day, 100 people attend.

Which person was probably better known, in your opinion?

Just answer that, if you can. Then we'll go further.
Elvis or the Pope or Kennedy would have 50K people attend because of popularity of the person. If Lady GAGA died tomorrow and the funeral was held in a place for 100K people 100K people would show up to pay their respect.

Did you want to take a stab at answering the question? Shit. I thought it was a pretty easy one.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #148 on: October 22, 2013, 09:12:31 PM »
How is it irrelevant? none of the thousands of cultures who never heard of Yahweh or Jesus have stories about them. The "story tellers" who told "stories" about Jesus never actually lived when he did. They wrote stories about him passed down from oral histories and fables about a man named Jesus. Fiction is fiction does not matter how many stories popped up about Jesus.

 If you follow the logic about stories about Jesus being true,you would probably be a Mormon. The Stories about Jesus did not stop in the first and second centuries. A man named John Smith has millions convinced Jesus was still doing things in the 1800s
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #149 on: October 22, 2013, 09:21:36 PM »
A funeral is held one day, 50,000 people attend. A funeral is held the next day, 100 people attend.

Which person was probably better known, in your opinion?

Just answer that, if you can. Then we'll go further.
Elvis or the Pope or Kennedy would have 50K people attend because of popularity of the person. If Lady GAGA died tomorrow and the funeral was held in a place for 100K people 100K people would show up to pay their respect.

Did you want to take a stab at answering the question? Shit. I thought it was a pretty easy one.
ya lady GAGA would have as many followers show up to her funeral as the setting could hold 100k just being a number i pulled out of my ass She is better known than mayor mcCheese who may only have 100 show up
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #150 on: October 22, 2013, 09:28:51 PM »
How is it irrelevant? none of the thousands of cultures who never heard of Yahweh or Jesus have stories about them. The "story tellers" who told "stories" about Jesus never actually lived when he did. They wrote stories about him passed down from oral histories and fables about a man named Jesus. Fiction is fiction does not matter how many stories popped up about Jesus.

 If you follow the logic about stories about Jesus being true,you would probably be a Mormon. The Stories about Jesus did not stop in the first and second centuries. A man named John Smith has millions convinced Jesus was still doing things in the 1800s

Its irrelevant because I am only trying to make the point that Jesus was probably more noteworthy than other preachers of his era. Nothing more (in the context of this discussion)
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #151 on: October 22, 2013, 09:29:56 PM »
A funeral is held one day, 50,000 people attend. A funeral is held the next day, 100 people attend.

Which person was probably better known, in your opinion?

Just answer that, if you can. Then we'll go further.
Elvis or the Pope or Kennedy would have 50K people attend because of popularity of the person. If Lady GAGA died tomorrow and the funeral was held in a place for 100K people 100K people would show up to pay their respect.

Did you want to take a stab at answering the question? Shit. I thought it was a pretty easy one.
ya lady GAGA would have as many followers show up to her funeral as the setting could hold 100k just being a number i pulled out of my ass She is better known than mayor mcCheese who may only have 100 show up

Oh. My. God.

Just...forget it.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #152 on: October 22, 2013, 09:32:23 PM »
understood,but outside those who were interested in Jesus stories*the region he came from,who else was interested in those stories....that is until you spread the word by raping the rest of the world. Hindus Chinese Muslims and Jews alike are still not believers Jesus was anything but another preacher
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Online median

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #153 on: October 22, 2013, 09:36:58 PM »
A funeral is held one day, 50,000 people attend. A funeral is held the next day, 100 people attend.

Which person was probably better known, in your opinion?

Just answer that, if you can. Then we'll go further.

[Did you attend this funeral? Did you know the person who supposedly died? What is meant by "know"? Rockstars die. Lots of people attend and most don't know them.]

I know where you are trying to go with this and it still doesn't work because you are assuming the gospels are accurate regarding "over 500 people saw him!" etc. But there is no good reason to accept that claim either. Again, the inconsistencies, contradictions, errors, and claims to the supernatural/miraculous all make the claims suspect (just like they do for all of the other religions). That is what you keep missing. You keep desperately wanting me to follow you into making the same assumptions you are making, but I won't and that is why you are struggling here.



« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 09:39:10 PM by median »
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #154 on: October 22, 2013, 09:42:40 PM »
How is it irrelevant? none of the thousands of cultures who never heard of Yahweh or Jesus have stories about them. The "story tellers" who told "stories" about Jesus never actually lived when he did. They wrote stories about him passed down from oral histories and fables about a man named Jesus. Fiction is fiction does not matter how many stories popped up about Jesus.

 If you follow the logic about stories about Jesus being true,you would probably be a Mormon. The Stories about Jesus did not stop in the first and second centuries. A man named John Smith has millions convinced Jesus was still doing things in the 1800s

Its irrelevant because I am only trying to make the point that Jesus was probably more noteworthy than other preachers of his era. Nothing more (in the context of this discussion)


WTF does "noteworthy" mean? There are no contemporary accounts of this alleged figure! And the gospels were written 70+ years after the alleged things happened. Just because things are written down doesn't make them more credible dude. It's pure hearsay and credulity from top to bottom. You are believing purely because you want to.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 09:44:22 PM by median »
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #155 on: October 22, 2013, 10:50:40 PM »
A funeral is held one day, 50,000 people attend. A funeral is held the next day, 100 people attend.

Which person was probably better known, in your opinion?

Just answer that, if you can. Then we'll go further.

[Did you attend this funeral? Did you know the person who supposedly died? What is meant by "know"? Rockstars die. Lots of people attend and most don't know them.]

I know where you are trying to go with this and it still doesn't work because you are assuming the gospels are accurate regarding "over 500 people saw him!" etc. But there is no good reason to accept that claim either. Again, the inconsistencies, contradictions, errors, and claims to the supernatural/miraculous all make the claims suspect (just like they do for all of the other religions). That is what you keep missing. You keep desperately wanting me to follow you into making the same assumptions you are making, but I won't and that is why you are struggling here.

I'll keep trying till I find a question you feel comfortable answering, rather than over-analysing. Lets try this one.

You are new in town, and wish to find a chinese restaurant. You drive past the only two in town. One is full and has a queue of people awaiting service, the other is open but you can only see two people in it.

What seems the most likely explanation for the huge popularity of one and the almost desertion of the other?

Don't be scared of the question Median. Just, for the love of one of your favourite ancient philosophers, answer the F$#&*% question as asked.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 10:52:40 PM by magicmiles »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #156 on: October 22, 2013, 11:02:15 PM »
The Chinese,Muslim and Hindu restaurants are much more popular than the "Christian" one. In fact they are more popular than ever,while the "Christian" restaurants are closing down faster than ever,hows that for analogy?

 Popular one century gone the next
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #157 on: October 22, 2013, 11:09:57 PM »
I'm almost tempted to smite you for being disruptive 12M, but your avatar is too nice. Cute little monkeys.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #158 on: October 22, 2013, 11:10:18 PM »
The Chinese,Muslim and Hindu restaurants are much more popular than the "Christian" one. In fact they are more popular than ever,while the "Christian" restaurants are closing down faster than ever,hows that for analogy?

 Popular one century gone the next

Why does it seem like atheists are OK with Chinese, Muslims and Hindus but not Christians?

And why did Jesus predict this would happen?  :o

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #159 on: October 22, 2013, 11:22:26 PM »
"Chinese" is not a religion (WTF? Are you a racist as well?); I've never had a Hindu threaten me with hellfire; Muslims are not excluded, they're just not present on this forum, at the moment.

My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #160 on: October 22, 2013, 11:25:20 PM »
"Chinese" is not a religion (WTF? Are you a racist as well?); I've never had a Hindu threaten me with hellfire; Muslims are not excluded, they're just not present on this forum, at the moment.

Why do you view it as a threat if you do not believe Hell is real?

Offline xyzzy

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #161 on: October 22, 2013, 11:27:10 PM »
You are new in town, and wish to find a chinese restaurant. You drive past the only two in town. One is full and has a queue of people awaiting service, the other is open but you can only see two people in it.

What seems the most likely explanation for the huge popularity of one and the almost desertion of the other?

Don't be scared of the question Median. Just, for the love of one of your favourite ancient philosophers, answer the F$#&*% question as asked.

I'm not Median, but here's a likely explanation.

12 Monkeys had started a false rumour at work that one of the restaurants would be having free food for the first two couples there on the preceding Sunday. This rumour was somewhat ironic as that particular restaurant really had some quite awful food.

The rumour spread throughout town and soon morphed into free food for everyone for the entire week. Along the way the rumour was picked up by the local media who promoted it to such an extent that all the gullible people in town were unable to see beyond their selfish intents and took the free-food rumour to be gospel.

Hence, the one restaurant had a huge queue of people who put their desire to believe something in their favour ahead of their more intellectually honest position that the rumour was unlikely to be true.

This state of affairs was even more unfortunate as the other restaurant, the one with almost no-one there, actually had a visiting master-chef who was preparing culinary delights and, as a special treat, had Lady Gaga giving away autographed copies of her latest album.

By the way, this post is in the form of a parable.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 11:45:51 PM by xyzzy »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #162 on: October 22, 2013, 11:38:18 PM »
The Chinese,Muslim and Hindu restaurants are much more popular than the "Christian" one. In fact they are more popular than ever,while the "Christian" restaurants are closing down faster than ever,hows that for analogy?

 Popular one century gone the next

Why does it seem like atheists are OK with Chinese, Muslims and Hindus but not Christians?

And why did Jesus predict this would happen?  :o
Was using the restaurant analogy for the dwindling popularity for Christianity
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #163 on: October 22, 2013, 11:55:32 PM »
"Chinese" is not a religion (WTF? Are you a racist as well?); I've never had a Hindu threaten me with hellfire; Muslims are not excluded, they're just not present on this forum, at the moment.

Why do you view it as a threat if you do not believe Hell is real?

Jag was only using the word to communicate the manner in which Hell is expressed by some people.
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Online Jag

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2013, 12:06:13 AM »
"Chinese" is not a religion (WTF? Are you a racist as well?); I've never had a Hindu threaten me with hellfire; Muslims are not excluded, they're just not present on this forum, at the moment.

Why do you view it as a threat if you do not believe Hell is real?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not being a dick with that remark. I'm unlikely to do it again.

MY disbelief in hell has no bearing whatsoever on the intent of the person making the threat.

I noticed you didn't address my point, you changed the subject instead. You do that a lot.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2013, 01:58:05 AM »
Why do you view it as a threat if you do not believe Hell is real?

Because it is still a threat.


Why does it seem like atheists are OK with Chinese, Muslims and Hindus but not Christians?

Hindu's are about peace, Muslims are not OK at all, and Chinese is not a religion.

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2013, 05:04:30 AM »
Hindu's are about peace, Muslims are not OK at all, and Chinese is not a religion.

Hindus came up with hell, possibly earlier than the Jews invented it, around 300BC. However, Indian scholarship is so poor, you can't date anything.

The Chinese are 42% atheist, and 18% Buddhist. The variations in Buddhism include virtual atheism. 30% is random folk religions, that appear to believe in lots of pig demons.

Christians have the most obnoxious religion, because they are totally confused about how to avoid hell. At least with Islam, Allah is generally just and merciful (so the Quran says, continually) Since there is no saviour concept in Islam, you just behave yourself, and give money to orphans. They also have 7 levels of heaven, so you can convince yourself that it's easy to get to the first level, as long as you abuse your 3 wives and slaves in the correct manner.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2013, 05:05:35 AM »
A funeral is held one day, 50,000 people attend. A funeral is held the next day, 100 people attend.

Which person was probably better known, in your opinion?

Probably the first person, I'll happily admit.

But that says nothing about whether the person was (for example) good, or liked.  It could be that many people are showing up to cheer their death.  Equally, it says nothing about whether that person was especially talented, or even real.

How many people heard of the "death" of Dumbledore?  And how many people knew of the death of my father?  Does the fact that the one was known to more people than the other mean that Dumbledore was a more popular, more important, more real person than my father?


You are new in town, and wish to find a chinese restaurant. You drive past the only two in town. One is full and has a queue of people awaiting service, the other is open but you can only see two people in it.

What seems the most likely explanation for the huge popularity of one and the almost desertion of the other?

Funnily enough, there are two restaurants very close to each other in my town.  One, that I love, does excellent all-you-can-eat food.  The other (which I tried once) is more expensive; has a set (and more limited) menu; and (to my mind, at least) does not have as nice food.  The only way they differ is that the former is in a side street, the latter in the high street.

Let me ask you a question.  "X-Factor" regularly pulls in millions of viewers.  "Panormana" (a current affairs programme) gets only a fraction of that amount.  Based on that information ALONE, which program is better?

The point people are trying to make is that just because lotsa people have heard of someone does not necessarily say anything about that person, other than (duh!) people have heard of him.  Many, many more people have heard of Mohammed than (let's say) the Egyptian God Atun.  What credibility do you believe that gives to Mohammed?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #168 on: October 23, 2013, 05:11:57 AM »
But do you understand I have only been trying to establish that it is likely that Jesus was not your run of the mill preacher. Not trying to get any concession beyond that. I suspect Median thinks I'm striving for more than I am.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #169 on: October 23, 2013, 05:24:57 AM »
But do you understand I have only been trying to establish that it is likely that Jesus was not your run of the mill preacher. Not trying to get any concession beyond that. I suspect Median thinks I'm striving for more than I am.

So you agree also that it is likely that Mohammed was not the run-of-the-mill prophet, that Gautama Buddha was not a run-of-the-mill preacher?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2013, 05:44:05 AM »
Sure. Seems pretty logical to me
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2013, 06:54:30 AM »
I wonder, I anyone thought that it is not the significance of Jesus as against other itinerant preachers of his time but more about his followers - probably not that many? the way I see it, the only thing that makes a difference to the memory of a person is not more than the people who are left behind when he or she dies and that publicise the things that person did. Even in those days, publicity was important you know.

So, what was the difference between Jesus and the other preachers of his day. Probably that fact that the Romans executed him. There are no Roman records of this, but given that this is mention throughout the NT writings I'll concede it is likely.  Now the thing about being executed is that the close followers would have been shocked and scared at his death - their death could not be far away. So, in this anxious and shocked state, it is quite likely that one or two of the close disciples might well have thought that they saw him after he died - its called Grief hallucinations. Now the idea that Jesus might not be dead, due to a vision of him by one or two close disciples probably motivated them to tell the other disciples and followers and gradually the story grew and grew until we have the stories in the NT.

The fact is that explaining the growth on the beliefs in Jesus doesn't take more than realising that the key is the thought that he survived death - the thing that people have been fixated on for ever.
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2013, 09:29:39 AM »

These arguments cancel each other out in my opinion. It seems to me that if Jesus was just one of many such preachers and unoriginal in his teachings, the huge reaction to his death and apparent resurrection would not have been so remarkable as to prompt the rise of Christianity.

? What huge reaction?  Outside of a coterie of kook, cranks, end of times nuts and crazy people, no one seemed to notice for about 100 years.  It is not like there were riots over jesus H's execution.  There were other revolts going on at the time, but they all centered around objection to Roman rule.


To me it suggests a process was used to establish which gospels were most reliable.

?  How would they know from reliability?  They based it on which ones the greatest number of them agreed with (included) or disagreed with (excluded).
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Re: Christians: How Do You Know The Bible is The Word of God?
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2013, 09:58:36 AM »

I'll keep trying till I find a question you feel comfortable answering, rather than over-analysing. Lets try this one.

You are new in town, and wish to find a chinese restaurant. You drive past the only two in town. One is full and has a queue of people awaiting service, the other is open but you can only see two people in it.

What seems the most likely explanation for the huge popularity of one and the almost desertion of the other?

Don't be scared of the question Median. Just, for the love of one of your favourite ancient philosophers, answer the F$#&*% question as asked.

You are a fucking child and really need to grow up and stop crying when people disagree with your methods. When someone disagrees with your method, or the angle at which you are trying to approach a debate (which clearly I do and have answered multiple times) you should either live with it, try to better understand, or agree to disagree (instead you chose the 8th grader path). Numerous people on this forum have sent me PMs regrading your childishness to this affect and it's really annoying. It's a brick wall so just stop already. Your assumptions aren't getting you anywhere. I am neither afraid nor uncomfortable. I simply disagree with your assumptions and methods. Grow up.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Your question (which you are trying to parallel to who you call 'Jesus') is based upon FALSE assumptions (those of your theology, statistics, etc) and it is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. In order to determine what is "most likely" you need statistical data!! But you do not have such data. All you have are ASSUMPTIONS that you are basing your entire faith upon (and those assumptions are in question). If you haven't gotten that by now then maybe you should start paying more attention. To paraphrase you: Don't be scared. For the love of truth drop your assumptions and try to see where others are coming from.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche