Author Topic: When did Jesus come into existence?  (Read 552 times)

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Offline William

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When did Jesus come into existence?
« on: October 15, 2013, 09:00:55 AM »
Scholars help me out please.  When was Jesus created? 

At conception?

A bit before when God budded a piece of himself off for the Angel to carry to Mary?

Or was it much earlier when God started inspiring the prophets to drop hints about the Messiah?  If it was much earlier then why didn't God deploy Jesus, His best asset yet, earlier in the piece?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2013, 09:09:33 AM »
Sorry, I was just imagining Jesus on the subs bench, railing at god to put him into the game, and god saying "nope, gonna hold you back for the last quarter"......   &)

Seriously though, this is a good question, because the answer will also show at what point Yahweh realised that the human race needed a Christ to get redeemed.  Clearly long before the apparent birth, else none of the OT "signs" would be there - which begs the question as to why, knowing things were going to definitely be going wrong, Yahweh did not take preventative action immediately.

How long, metaphorically, did Yahweh drive along with his oil light flashing?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2013, 09:12:44 AM »
My understanding has always been that Jesus was "a part of god" from the very start (whenever that was).  John 1:1 is often used to support that assertation (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God).
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2013, 09:21:58 AM »
My understanding has always been that Jesus was "a part of god" from the very start (whenever that was).  John 1:1 is often used to support that assertation (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God).

Isn't like saying a marble statue was created millions of years ago when the marble formed?

I think the OP is aking when the particular aspect of god known as jesus was created

Offline neopagan

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2013, 09:44:59 AM »
I vote 1 Thessalonians... Paul's supposed first epistle
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline William

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2013, 10:00:06 AM »
My understanding has always been that Jesus was "a part of god" from the very start (whenever that was).  John 1:1 is often used to support that assertation (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God).

The OP question was spawned from thoughts in that other thread about the "sacrifice":
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25573.msg573980/topicseen.html#msg573980

Now I'm thinking how could the "Word" suffer?  The "Flesh" yes. But the "Flesh" was dispensable and did not exist prior to conception.
The "Flesh" was not in a position to anticipate its sacrifice and suffering since the beginning - only for the short time that the "Word" insisted on going through with the mission.

The "Word" component of Jesus was not like a human - our souls are created at conception and develop and mature with our awareness (and knowledge acquisition) which is integrated with our fleshly development. So any suffering of our flesh is fully our suffering. 

The "Word" on the other hand was already fully developed and godly from the start - from before the "Flesh" existed - so its maturity and functional state could not be in any way dependent on the "Flesh" or the physical fate of the "Flesh".  The "Flesh" could not hold back the "Word".  The "Word" was already at the pinnacle.

The "Word" was just a passenger in the "Flesh" and wouldn't have suffered in the slightest when the "Flesh" suffered.
The "Word" was faking it through the "Flesh" at the expense of the "Flesh".

Makes complete sense now  :?  :o :laugh:
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2013, 10:11:15 AM »
^^^ this gives rise to the question of why the "word" had to wait 30 years before showing it's power.
Why couldn't the "word" be more like Hercules[1] and show divine power right from the start?
 1. see the snake incident

Offline penfold

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013, 10:55:03 AM »
When was Jesus created? 

Are you sitting comfortably...

In 325CE the Emperor Constantine I called together all the priests of the Empire to council at Nicaea. The Emperor himself had recently fought and won a battle "under the sign of the cross". Being a good Roman decided to pay homage to his new divine patron - this odd God-man Jesus - by establishing him as the new God of Rome. The only problem was that most of the followers of this religion disagreed about whether Jesus was man or God. So Constantine called the Council at Nicaea to get people to agree on some fundamentals. Thus Nicaea became the foundation of what Christians call doctrine - ie the "official position".

Most of what happened at Nicaea was the early Christian leaders defining what they did not believe in. In particular they were keen to emphasize that they did not agree with the Gnostics, that matter was evil. More importantly for us they also wanted to emphasize that did not believe in a position promoted by a man called Arius.

Arius was a rabble-rousing populist who had been in trouble for asking exactly the question you have asked. When did Jesus start to exist? Arius pointed out that Jesus kept talking to his 'father' in the gospels and that strongly implied that the 'father' pre-existed Jesus. Thus Arius concluded that there was a time when Jesus did not exist.

However at Nicaea it was formally decided that Jesus was homo-ousia (a strange Aristotelian term meaning 'of the same substance') with God. In other words Jesus has existed for all eternity just as God has. Jesus is, with God, creator and not creation.

While Nicaea is only acknowledged officially by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches; as far as I am aware no mainstream protestant church challenges its central conclusions. Having said that I have no more insight into what individual Christians believe than the next guy. My suspicion would be that most have never even thought about it.

So there you have it: 'officially' Jesus has always existed. He was never created because he is not a part of creation.

Hope that helps
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 11:00:04 AM by penfold »
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Online Jag

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2013, 12:11:16 PM »
On a slightly different tack, when did the holy spirit first show up? I don't want to derail, but I've had that in the back of my mind for a couple of days now and have no idea what the answer is. Where did the concept of "trinity" come from?

These kind of questions make theists get really mad at me. They think I'm setting them up, when in truth I'm genuinely curious - and it turns out that most of the time, neither of us knows.

If I remember correctly, this is one point of contention between Islam and Christianity. I can't recall every having a Christian suggest that the others to whom God is speaking in Genesis would be the rest of the trinity - most of the time I get a blank look, or a denial that it's there at all.
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Offline Nick

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 12:18:45 PM »
Back in Catholic school we were taught that Jesus always was...since He was God.  All 3 of them always were.  So Jesus just hung around waiting for His short 30 year appearance and then He is done...well, except for appearing on chips and things.  Which means that God must have known this was all going to play out this way even before He created the world.  That God...you can't get anything past Him. ;)
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Online Jag

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013, 12:28:14 PM »
Back in Catholic school we were taught that Jesus always was...since He was God.  All 3 of them always were.  So Jesus just hung around waiting for His short 30 year appearance and then He is done...well, except for appearing on chips and things.  Which means that God must have known this was all going to play out this way even before He created the world.  That God...you can't get anything past Him. ;)

Yep, I was taught the same thing - I'm being lazy and should just go look it up. I can remember lots of NT references but can't think of OT, not that I can depend on my memory for any of this stuff anyway. Off to do my own damn research, as I should.
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Online Jag

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2013, 12:56:10 PM »
Came up with this gem on my first try!
Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"

Answer: The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain (This is no way diminishes christians insistence that it is true and that you will fry in hell if you don't believe it.). God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him (and it's on us to figure out how to square this circle into a personal relationship with one of him). The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God (and we are not permitted to laugh out loud at this and proclaim "what the babbling f***does that mean, unless it was written by a person with schizophrenia?" That's a fry-worthy offense too.). Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another (who is this "we" being referred to, and can I get a definition of "facts" please?), ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind("but it's still true and an absolute deal breaker, so stop trying to make sense of it and just believe it!"). However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true (doesn't mean it IS true either) or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible (Finally! Something I can agree with!).

To be fair, it went on to quote specific passages from the bible to support the last sentence. http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html#ixzz2hoVMH8lb
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2013, 01:16:54 PM »
My understanding has always been that Jesus was "a part of god" from the very start (whenever that was).  John 1:1 is often used to support that assertation (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God).

The OP question was spawned from thoughts in that other thread about the "sacrifice":
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25573.msg573980/topicseen.html#msg573980

Now I'm thinking how could the "Word" suffer?  The "Flesh" yes. But the "Flesh" was dispensable and did not exist prior to conception.
The "Flesh" was not in a position to anticipate its sacrifice and suffering since the beginning - only for the short time that the "Word" insisted on going through with the mission.

The "Word" component of Jesus was not like a human - our souls are created at conception and develop and mature with our awareness (and knowledge acquisition) which is integrated with our fleshly development. So any suffering of our flesh is fully our suffering. 

The "Word" on the other hand was already fully developed and godly from the start - from before the "Flesh" existed - so its maturity and functional state could not be in any way dependent on the "Flesh" or the physical fate of the "Flesh".  The "Flesh" could not hold back the "Word".  The "Word" was already at the pinnacle.

The "Word" was just a passenger in the "Flesh" and wouldn't have suffered in the slightest when the "Flesh" suffered.
The "Word" was faking it through the "Flesh" at the expense of the "Flesh".

Makes complete sense now  :?  :o :laugh:


I've heard it said that the logos/word always existed with God as God's intent for creation and that some 2000 years ago Jesus' was born and he was in effect the embodiement of God's creative intent, a perfectly sinless man worthy of ruling God's creation who proved himself by being obedient unto death.   

Offline Graybeard

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2013, 02:57:45 PM »
Scholars help me out please.  When was Jesus created? 
Jesus was always there. As the Son of God, He is as old as God. He, like God has no beginning and no end. He is part of the Trinity that is the One and Only True God and is indivisible and He always has been. And when I say "always" I mean "always"

This is from Jesus Himself:

John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

And this is confirmation that Jesus really did say that:

2nd Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

In history, this presented many, many problems. It is what happens when a liar creates a story and then someone finds fault in it. The liar's friend invents an excuse without consulting the friend or knowing what exactly he meant.

This happened in the case of The Comma JohanneumWiki is a comma (a short clause) in the First Epistle of John (1 John 5:7–8). This text is variously referred to as the Comma Johanneum, the Johannine Comma, the Heavenly Witnesses, 1 John 5:7 or 1 John v:7. The question of the authenticity of the verse, with the phrase:

    "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. "

Despite any claims to this being "controversial", it is a straight forward error or forgery. Some say that it was a marginal note to the text that was included others that some idiot put it in.

This created the Trinity – before that the Trinity did not exist, there was One God and Jesus was His Son but an ordinary person. And with this lie, there was created the impossibility of an Eternal Adult Christ who was born as a baby and of a virgin! It created the difficulty of whether Christ was a God at birth or became one after crucifixion. There was some sect or other who said that Christ just appeared on earth aged about 30 and that the virgin birth was fantasy (as if!) and they were all slaughtered, so that solved the problem without actually solving it. The slaughterers would have been probably better of accepting this.

The general approach of the Churches to this stupidity is "It is a Mystery we cannot Comprehend."

Or as you and I say, "It’s Bollocks."
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 03:01:18 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline jdawg70

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2013, 04:03:44 PM »
Came up with this gem on my first try!
Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"
Off topic, but Adam Lee has an essay regarding the doctrine of the Trinity that I've found interesting:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/three-in-one/
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Online Jag

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2013, 09:18:16 PM »
^^^Thanks jdawg, that was a well written post. He articulated exactly what I was questioning and provided the answer as well, so that was really helpful. I should pay more attention to his blog, I like the way he writes.
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Offline Dr H

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 04:54:53 PM »
Scholars help me out please.  When was Jesus created? 

At conception?

A bit before when God budded a piece of himself off for the Angel to carry to Mary?

Or was it much earlier when God started inspiring the prophets to drop hints about the Messiah?  If it was much earlier then why didn't God deploy Jesus, His best asset yet, earlier in the piece?

The answer to that question depends a lot on what, exactly, you mean by "Jesus"?

Jesus the itinerant radical Hebrew prophet, who wandered around Palestine ~ 2000 years ago?

Or the Jesus of believers, son of God, redeemer of mankind, fortold by OT prophets and serialized in the NT?

Or Jesus the Legend, built up and promulgated by Saul of Tarsus?

Or Jesus the Myth, held up by American televangelists to solicit donations?

Or New Age Jesus, the ultimate Zen master and bodhisattva, who spent more time in Tibet than he did in Palestine?
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Offline William

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 05:17:10 PM »
Or Jesus the ...

Any Jesus ... happy to pin down any of the variants before they mutate  ;D
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Offline Dr H

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Re: When did Jesus come into existence?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 06:01:10 PM »
Or Jesus the ...

Any Jesus ... happy to pin down any of the variants before they mutate  ;D

In that case you'd pretty much have to start with the itinerant Palastinian prophet.

Dr H

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