Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 34820 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1566 on: November 03, 2013, 12:08:05 PM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

The definition of evolution is a change of inherited characteristics of biological populations over time. You think that's been refuted? LOL. No, it hasn't. You are just ignorant of the science and reject it a priori due to your preciously protected assumption about the bible.

This debate doesn't have to be endless. Just stop using irrational (illogical) arguments and it will be over.

No I have asked many times for empirical evidence of a new species coming from the first cells that existed.

According to evolution, the first cells came into existence billions of years ago. How do we get a different type of species from those cells?

Those cells turned into.......what?

Nobody has answered this yet. Dawkins was stumped too.

You are speaking from pure ignorance. The subject of how life began has nothing to do with evolution. That is an entirely different topic. Go take classes in biology and come back when you are educated on what the science actually states. Besides that, this is off topic.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1567 on: November 03, 2013, 12:10:54 PM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

The definition of evolution is a change of inherited characteristics of biological populations over time. You think that's been refuted? LOL. No, it hasn't. You are just ignorant of the science and reject it a priori due to your preciously protected assumption about the bible.

This debate doesn't have to be endless. Just stop using irrational (illogical) arguments and it will be over.

No I have asked many times for empirical evidence of a new species coming from the first cells that existed.

According to evolution, the first cells came into existence billions of years ago. How do we get a different type of species from those cells?

Those cells turned into.......what?

Nobody has answered this yet. Dawkins was stumped too.

You are speaking from pure ignorance. The subject of how life began has nothing to do with evolution. That is an entirely different topic. Go take classes in biology and come back when you are educated on what the science actually states. Besides that, this is off topic.

it is not about how life began. it is about life already starting from simple cells.

So we have simple cells and then we get........what?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1568 on: November 03, 2013, 12:27:55 PM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

The definition of evolution is a change of inherited characteristics of biological populations over time. You think that's been refuted? LOL. No, it hasn't. You are just ignorant of the science and reject it a priori due to your preciously protected assumption about the bible.

This debate doesn't have to be endless. Just stop using irrational (illogical) arguments and it will be over.

No I have asked many times for empirical evidence of a new species coming from the first cells that existed.

According to evolution, the first cells came into existence billions of years ago. How do we get a different type of species from those cells?

Those cells turned into.......what?

Nobody has answered this yet. Dawkins was stumped too.

You are speaking from pure ignorance. The subject of how life began has nothing to do with evolution. That is an entirely different topic. Go take classes in biology and come back when you are educated on what the science actually states. Besides that, this is off topic.

it is not about how life began. it is about life already starting from simple cells.

So we have simple cells and then we get........what?

Back up and read all the posts and click all the links you skipped to catch up first. That should at least prepare you to ask better questions since you'll finally know what you are talking about.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1569 on: November 03, 2013, 12:38:28 PM »

it is not about how life began. it is about life already starting from simple cells.

So we have simple cells and then we get........what?

NO! You don't know what it's about b/c you are ignorant of the subject (quite clearly). You don't know what it states b/c you haven't studied it and you are speaking from pure ignorance (rejecting something for which you know next to nothing about). Your confirmation bias is showing. Until you can properly articulate what evolutionary science states you really have no credibility to claim you have any knowledge of it's truth or falsity. But let's do that in a different OP, b/c this is off topic.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1570 on: November 03, 2013, 12:43:22 PM »

it is not about how life began. it is about life already starting from simple cells.

So we have simple cells and then we get........what?

NO! You don't know what it's about b/c you are ignorant of the subject (quite clearly). You don't know what it states b/c you haven't studied it and you are speaking from pure ignorance (rejecting something for which you know next to nothing about). Your confirmation bias is showing. Until you can properly articulate what evolutionary science states you really have no credibility to claim you have any knowledge of it's truth or falsity. But let's do that in a different OP, b/c this is off topic.

I assume you have the knowledge of how a new species formed from the first simple cells?

By all means, explain. otherwise, I would have to assume you are just stalling.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1571 on: November 03, 2013, 12:47:11 PM »
Back up and read all the posts and click all the links you skipped to catch up first. That should at least prepare you to ask better questions since you'll finally know what you are talking about.

And.....a swing and a miss.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1572 on: November 03, 2013, 12:59:44 PM »

I assume you have the knowledge of how a new species formed from the first simple cells?

By all means, explain. otherwise, I would have to assume you are just stalling.

[see bold] Yes, you seem to really enjoy assuming lots of things of which you have not studied and are quite ignorant. But it's not my job to do your homework for you. Again, the subject of TOE is off topic. Please go here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25748.msg580563.html#msg580563
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1573 on: November 03, 2013, 01:21:00 PM »
Back up and read all the posts and click all the links you skipped to catch up first. That should at least prepare you to ask better questions since you'll finally know what you are talking about.

And.....a swing and a miss.

Look at that, Median explained it to you from both sides.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1574 on: November 03, 2013, 09:47:21 PM »
I assume you have the knowledge of how a new species formed from the first simple cells?

By all means, explain. otherwise, I would have to assume you are just stalling.

Wait, wait, wait.  Tell me again why we are expected to have a detailed answer to every single question, and if we don't that somehow means evolution is wrong? 
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1575 on: November 03, 2013, 10:11:05 PM »
Just like when humas discovered the Earth is round. Yet, we didn't know why people didn't fall off the bottom, so that means the only explanation is that the Earth must be flat!

Skeptical, just because it took 2,000 years to figure out about gravity after the Greeks discovered that the Earth is round, doesn't mean the Greeks were wrong. Same thing with Evolution, Abiogenesis and Bib Bang Theory. We don't know everything, but we're trying to learn about the world around us. Like you, you don't know everything, and you don't know how the Earth came to be either, but you simply state, "Godidit!" Yet, this isn't an answer because the person that originally said that was was a bronze age goat herder that almost died out there in the desert. He had no clue and was just making up BS, but because he acted like he knew what he was talking about, other ignorant people thought he had "real answers" and followed him. Skep, do you know what happens to someone thats been out in the desert for a long time with barely enough food and water that they almost die?

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1576 on: November 03, 2013, 10:52:05 PM »
Pointing out the vastness of what we don't know is no justification for dismissing what we do know.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1577 on: November 03, 2013, 10:53:16 PM »

As someone stated before.... Looking for the exact moment that an emergent species develops is like looking for the exact moment a drop of water erodes a rock.
or real information gets through his clouded judgment
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Offline Boots

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1578 on: November 04, 2013, 03:32:50 PM »
Ever watch one of those time lapse videos that shows a child growing up?  You can't point to 2 adjacent frames and say that in one frame the child is an infant and a toddler the next, or a preteen/adolescent.  It's exactly the same thing with evolution.

"which came first, the chicken or the egg?"  Answer: yes.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1579 on: November 04, 2013, 04:21:26 PM »
skeptic,

If someone wanted to learn about Christianity, would you refer them to an anti-Christian website written by Muslims and Hindus? You have gotten your ideas about biological science from anti-evolution websites that are not written by biologists, are inaccurate on basic science and are based on definitions that no working scientist accepts. That is like accepting a Hindu's description of what the Christian faith was all about, especially if that Hindu had never been to a church, never met a Christian, had never read any of the bible and thought that Jesus was the same person as Satan.

Charles Darwin was hardly the horrible villain that a handful of Christians seem to to think he was. He was a rather mild-mannered, nerdy 19th century Brit who liked observing nature and kept meticulous notes. He was going to become a minister, but got derailed by a ocean voyage that changed his life. He would be so shocked and disappointed to find a handful of influential people today blaming him for every possible modern evil and comparing him to Hitler and Stalin.   [1]

Why are you able to accept many other scientific concepts, but remain so resistant to the theory of evolution? The theory of evolution is based on the same exact scientific method that led to the discovery of DNA, that cured smallpox, that made cancer and AIDS into treatable illnesses instead of an automatic death sentence. The same scientific method keeps airplanes in the sky, sends signals to your cell phone and helps police solve crimes. But these other areas of science, like germ theory, gravitational theory and genetics, are just as complicated as the TOE,  and equally as "unproven" from a religious standpoint. Why so much misplaced attention on evolutionary biology?

You seem to expect people to respond to your uninformed questions about complex aspects of evolutionary biology with simple, one-sentence catch phrases. If you were a five-year-old, that might fly. But you are old enough to do a bit of research. The basics are not that hard, but you do have to read a few paragraphs of biology so you have a clue as to what evolutionary theory is and what it is not.

You don't do this--why not?
 1. At my college a co-worker objected to the biology department having a Darwin Day, stating that it would be like celebrating Hitler. No kidding. She sent out an all-campus email about how offended she was as a Christian, to see Darwin's cursed name on campus flyers.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1580 on: November 05, 2013, 10:22:49 AM »
What they said^^^

We do not know how everything works, but, as said above our lack of knowledge does not debunk what we know or think we know.


How the first proto cell formed and and the first cell colony became an individual creature by billions of tiny genetic mistakes is really simply not required to put forth the theory of evolution...  There is tremendous evidence that creatures seem to follow a lineage up through the family tree branching off to new creatures.   

Could this have been intelligent design, I guess so, propose that theory and test it.  Evolutionists will continue to try and test their theories and attempt to create a proto cell and or find transitional creatures.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1581 on: November 05, 2013, 10:35:42 AM »
PS did any thumper take on the question of sacrifice?


How does an all knowing god sacrifice?   Sacrifice means to give up something.  If god wants something he need only think it and it will be.   So it is really not a sacrifice like we humans endure.

it was a totally willing act to come to earth to satisfy his own rules.  He sacrificed himself to himself to satisfy Rules he made up.  He knew all about pain and suffering being that he created the subjects and he is all knowing.   

He can gain no knowledge by the act of becoming human and suffering

Can god truely sacrifice?   Is becoming human a sacrifice, is dying a sacrifice if you decided to do it, you have the power to undo it, your state does not change in the act of doing it and you know full well the alternative is better?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1582 on: November 12, 2013, 04:55:03 AM »

All fossils show fully formed creatures that were deposited after the flood. No fossil shows a species changing into a completely new species of animal. They have found out of place artifacts such as a hammer in strata dated to be "millions of years" and they assume it shouldn't be there because hammers weren't around millions of years ago. yet, they assume the fossils are millions of years old, unlike the hammer.

I apologise for being late to this thread but I could not pass by the references to
(i)   The “amazing hammer”
(ii)   The lack of transitional fossils

1. The amazing hammer is not amazing. http://www.badarchaeology.com/?page_id=315

The rock around it is sandstone. Sandstone can be produced commercially and the age of the granules does not indicate the age that a piece of rock was created. The age of a stratum of sandstone is judged by the composition, density, and weathering and by comparison with other layers around it.

It is quite easy to take an object, e.g. a Sony Walkman, and coat it with sandstone. The quick formation of sandstone in nature is well-known.

The finder has nothing to show that it was indeed found where he claims it was, particularly, there is nothing to show the stratum from which it allegedly came.

The hammer in question is, by its style, dated to c. 1880. It is a specialised item known as a swage hammer and used for cold-forming metal. The rock around it is therefore not more than ~130 years old. There is a photograph of a recent example at a further link on the site above.

The owner of the hammer refuses to have any part carbon dated or dated by any other radio isotope. He also refuses to have the tree rings in the wood dated. The hammer forms a star attraction at a profitable creationist museum.

The hammer is typical of the faked objects found at fairground/freak-show attractions of the late 19th/early 20th century when the gullibility of the people was greater than today (or, in some cases, not.)

2. Transitional fossils can be seen at most of the major national museums.


Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1583 on: November 12, 2013, 12:13:53 PM »
2. Transitional fossils can be seen at most of the major national museums.

Didn't I hear/read someone say "every fossil is a transitional fossil?"
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1584 on: November 12, 2013, 12:34:55 PM »
I suppose it's not strictly true...the absolute last individuals of an extinct species wouldn't leave "transitional" fossils, they'd leave "terminal" fossils.  But those would be a vanishingly small number of fossils.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1585 on: November 12, 2013, 01:23:23 PM »
I suppose it's not strictly true...the absolute last individuals of an extinct species wouldn't leave "transitional" fossils, they'd leave "terminal" fossils.  But those would be a vanishingly small number of fossils.
Not quite.  They would be 'terminal' fossils if and only if that extinct species did not branch another species at all; that is, only if the extinct species were a terminal node of a branch in the tree of life.  Otherwise, that fossil would still be representative of a species that is transitional.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1586 on: November 12, 2013, 01:28:46 PM »
I suppose it depends on how long ago the branching was.  Rangeomorphs probably share some microbial ancestor with humans, yet we wouldn't consider fossils of them to be one of our transitonal fossils.  Despite them qualifying according to the standard you've set.  The same holds true for fossils of insects from the Cretaceous - they can't reasonably be considered a transitional fossil of the human species, even though we did branch off somewhere back in the water.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1587 on: November 12, 2013, 01:45:51 PM »
I suppose it depends on how long ago the branching was.  Rangeomorphs probably share some microbial ancestor with humans, yet we wouldn't consider fossils of them to be one of our transitonal fossils.  Despite them qualifying according to the standard you've set.  The same holds true for fossils of insects from the Cretaceous - they can't reasonably be considered a transitional fossil of the human species, even though we did branch off somewhere back in the water.
I've probably lost a little of the context of the thread, so I was probably speaking out of turn.  I did not mean to imply that what I proposed would label those fossils to be transitional fossils of human ancestry, but simply transitional fossils, period.  Rangeomorphs would be transitional fossil with respect to whatever species they inherit from and whatever species would have evolved from them, and yes, pedantically, you could argue that eventually you would trace the shared ancestry up/down/around the line to the human species, but I don't think that's an applicable use of the scientific phrase 'transitional fossil'.  Or, I suppose it still could be applicable, but the utility of the phrase would seem to be lost in that case.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1588 on: November 12, 2013, 02:53:31 PM »
Rangeomorphs have no known multicellular relatives.  Fossils of rangeomorphs are transitional with respect to each other, but only in the most pedantic sense are they transitional with respect to the rest of the fossil record.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1589 on: November 12, 2013, 05:58:27 PM »
2. Transitional fossils can be seen at most of the major national museums.

Didn't I hear/read someone say "every fossil is a transitional fossil?"

Skeptic said, "No fossil shows a species changing into a completely new species of animal."

When you speak to a Frenchman, you speak French, to a Russian, you speak Russian and to someone who has been indoctrinated by the ignorance of the superstitions, you speak "Creationist." That way, they understand.


Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”