Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 20626 times)

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1537 on: November 01, 2013, 10:48:26 PM »
How can you prove God is not there? It's not as easy as Santa.

Isn't there this verse: Anything you ask, in my name, and I will do it?

He doesn't say, "If it's according to my will, and you prayed hard enough, fasted log enough, etc, etc."

At least you can sit in Santa's lap and tell him face-to-face what you want, yet he isn't real. Irony.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 11:58:54 PM by Ivellios »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1538 on: November 01, 2013, 11:06:04 PM »
With all due respect median, the point isn't about "proving" an external world exists. The point is that it makes no sense to acknowledge an external world from a purely materialistic viewpoint.

And it makes no sense from your point of view either.  Your basis for belief in the "immaterial" is rooted in the material.  If you are a brain in a jar, the concept of god is just as much a part of the experiment as science, the earth or me. No matter what, you have no way to know anything.

Idealism doesn't have this problem because everything exists in God's mind. An external world only makes sense with Idealism, not materialism.

malarkey.  unless you are god, doing the dreaming, you have no way of knowing god's mind even exists.

Idealism: We can empirically deduce

that doesn't even make sense. you deduce via logic.  Empiricism is evidence based.  you go look and verify through data.  But if we are just brains in jars, or dreams by a god, then there is no evidence for us to observe.

So since everything is known through a mind, it makes sense to posit an eternal infinite mind that perceives all things.

It doesn't that is a gigantic leap and begs the quesiton.




That is a tu quoque logical fallacy.
It's not.

In fact, lots of atheists use this fallacy quite often.

I doubt they do it any more than any one else.  But if they do it is because xians are self righteous hypocrites who piss all over jesus H who told them to not be judgmental.  Maybe if you guys weren't such jerks about casting the first stone, we would not have to point out what a bunch of hypocrites you are.

That said, I don't think it is about that so much as it is a question of what good xianity is for practical ethics and morality.  If you it does not keep you guys in line, well, what makes you so special?





So because some crackpot draws a diagram and claims it's the Biblical diagram, you guys just swallow it whole?
All the writings in the Bible can be attributed to crackpots from a non-theists point of view. You just pick and choose which crackpot stories you believe and which to dismiss.[/quote]

You cannot seriously be arguing the ancient hebrews were not geocentrists?  If so, you are mistaken:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model#Orthodox_Judaism

You seem to pick and choose the modern ideas you accept.  Creationism is totally reasonable, but geocentrism is for crackpots.  Riiiight.



Guess what, guys? "Rational thought" doesn't work on things you personally witnessed with your own eyeballs.

Oh really?  From what you've said, you did not actually witness anything.  You heard from someone else the dog was ill.  Then you heard from someone else it was not.  what exactly did you witness, young man?

How can you prove God is not there? It's not as easy as Santa.

oh really?  How do you prove Santa is not there?
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1539 on: November 02, 2013, 12:21:44 AM »

With all due respect median, the point isn't about "proving" an external world exists. The point is that it makes no sense to acknowledge an external world from a purely materialistic viewpoint. This is because you can not say what exists without any senses around to describe it.

Idealism doesn't have this problem because everything exists in God's mind. An external world only makes sense with Idealism, not materialism.

Idealism: We can empirically deduce that our senses are used to describe things and derive all knowledge. So since everything is known through a mind, it makes sense to posit an eternal infinite mind that perceives all things.

It makes no sense to say: "Since everything is known through minds, we'll just go ahead and claim we know exactly what exists when no minds are around to describe it."

It's a huge conundrum.

To your first attempt at a point, you haven't escaped the problem by restating idealism. Merely restating it does absolutely nothing for you. Have you studied Kant's refutation yet? I'm waiting for you to actually do your homework and catch up.

To your second PURE ASSERTION, you have nothing. All you're doing is ASSUMING your position in advance (which is circular reasoning). You are question begging and it doesn't advance you any closer to where you so badly want to go. Making up shit which you haven't demonstrated is actual (or part of reality) in order to avoid a problem in your philosophical position (as Berkeley also tried) is irrational. Anyone can makeup any imaginary thing they want in an attempt to solve a philosophical issue. It does nothing. No, it does not "make sense to posit an eternal infinite mind". That is your a priori assumption and via Occam's Razor it goes bye-bye.

To your third nonsense claim, you are assuming (as is your MO) what 'knowledge' is, and what it means to know things. You are also assuming what people claim about knowledge of the external world. You clearly have not done your junior philosophy homework.

Yes, your worldview is a huge conundrum. You've gotten yourself into idealism (by assumption, where nothing exists but idea) and now you're desperately trying to get out by making more assumptions. EPIC FAIL.

Go read Kant.[1]



 1. Transcendental Aesthetic and Critique of Pure Reason - if you dare...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 12:26:43 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1540 on: November 02, 2013, 12:33:37 AM »
Skep,

I hope we can continue this another time.

These are some of the mistakes which your demon led you to.

You said you had to be omniscient to know if it was a demon who cured the dog then you asserted it was Yahweh without any proof in reply 1526.

Your demon tried to cover this up by saying if there is no fear there is no danger in 1529. This is not only a contradiction of the need to be omniscient, it is also wrong. Demons give false information like that.

I tried to explain with the example of a drunk that you were not aware of the danger, and like a drunk that you were calling your demon Yahweh. It should be obvious to you that the danger which you do not see is greater than the one you do see. Your demon knew this and closed your mind to the danger which I had clearly pointed out. In 1531 you were in complete denial of any danger calling it "nothing". Do you not see how dangerous this is? Your demon is able to hold you so easily precisely because it does not let you see the danger.

The other issues which you ignored are the nature of what you saw. You said you did not care what I thought about it. Would you not want to know? Your demon does not want you to know.

Also you have not answered whether you agree that demons give false information and lies.

Your tu quoque points are irrelevant because I am only discussing your perception, nothing more. Tu quoque means to attempt to discredit a general idea by one person's inconsistency. I am not trying to do that so your demon has been giving you false definitions again just to confuse you.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 12:59:22 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1541 on: November 02, 2013, 01:22:17 AM »
Yes, your worldview is a huge conundrum. You've gotten yourself into idealism (by assumption, where nothing exists but idea) and now you're desperately trying to get out by making more assumptions. EPIC FAIL.

Go read Kant.[1]
 1. Transcendental Aesthetic and Critique of Pure Reason - if you dare...

That's where you are wrong. Idealism is based on nothing but empiricism, not assumption.

The whole point of Idealism is that Berkeley believed that Locke did not carry the principles of empiricism far enough.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1542 on: November 02, 2013, 06:43:30 AM »
How can you prove God is not there? It's not as easy as Santa.
Are you serious?
W.W.G.H.A proves it time and time again. You are just not willing to accept anything that goes against what you/your demon has put in your head.
As has been stated many times, the burden of proof is not on atheists- we are not the ones stating that some god(s) exist.

I highly doubt 2% actually follow ALL the rules. More like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% do.
;)
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Heaven must be like a party that nobody actually wants to go too but feel they should.
I guess you would find peace there as it would be pretty empty.
Hell, on the other hand, must be where all the cool people hang out.
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1543 on: November 02, 2013, 10:59:54 AM »
Yes, your worldview is a huge conundrum. You've gotten yourself into idealism (by assumption, where nothing exists but idea) and now you're desperately trying to get out by making more assumptions. EPIC FAIL.

Go read Kant.[1]
 1. Transcendental Aesthetic and Critique of Pure Reason - if you dare...

That's where you are wrong. Idealism is based on nothing but empiricism, not assumption.

The whole point of Idealism is that Berkeley believed that Locke did not carry the principles of empiricism far enough.

No, I'm not wrong. You haven't done your homework in philosophy and it shows! It's funny though how you decided to only respond to one part of my rebuttal above. If you admit that you believe Berkeley's argument was successful in eliminating the external material world (which I reject) then you still have ALL of your work ahead you, b/c you are in the same boat as everyone (according to your own admission). Merely positing an "eternal mind" as an answer to your next ASSUMPTION (that only mind exists) does nothing (as it is ad hoc).

-You haven't defined 'knowledge'
-You haven't done your philosophy homework
-You only make ad hoc assumptions regarding your previous assumptions
-You practice confirmation bias due to your emotional a priori investment in your religion

FAIL.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1544 on: November 02, 2013, 02:44:33 PM »
Skeptic, your Christmas presents are clear evidence of the existence of Santa. If a child asked Santa for gifts and they came, then Santa is real. (Just like if you ask god to heal a dog and the dog gets better, then god is real. Right?)

No presents under the tree means no Santa? Uh uh, not at all.

Maybe Santa just decided not to bring you any presents--who can know the will of Santa? Santa answers yes, no and not yet.

Maybe Santa had something even better in mind for you than mere presents. You just have to be patient. Santa is not a vending machine.

Or Santa did bring you some presents, but they are spiritual presents, not silly material things like toys and treats and clothes and crap.

If Santa actually appeared and gave you the presents in person, then there would be no need for faith. Everyone would just believe in Santa and it would not be special.

And, when your parents came home with gifts, it is because that is how Santa works nowadays, through human beings......

No healing of the cat means no god? Uh uh, not at all..... &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1545 on: November 02, 2013, 05:05:35 PM »

No presents under the tree means no Santa? Uh uh, not at all.

Maybe Santa just decided not to bring you any presents--who can know the will of Santa? Santa answers yes, no and not yet.


No presents meant he didn't ask for them right, or hard enough. He didn't have enough belief (faith) in Santa. He was asking for selfish reasons. These are in addition to nogodsforme's reasons.

Surely you cannot prove he does not exist! There are: songs, poems, books, and movies about him and so much more! Surely these would not exist if he weren't real!

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1546 on: November 02, 2013, 09:41:15 PM »
Take note, Skep:  The last two posts are an example of "apologetics" - just not apologetics for your deity.  Christian apologetics are about as convincing and sincere as these.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1547 on: November 02, 2013, 09:43:51 PM »
Take note, Skep:  The last two posts are an example of "apologetics" - just not apologetics for your deity.  Christian apologetics are about as convincing and sincere as these.

No. It is childish nonsense.

I'm supposed to be playing with the "big boys" on this board.
These are 3rd grade type arguments.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1548 on: November 02, 2013, 09:45:01 PM »

No presents under the tree means no Santa? Uh uh, not at all.

Maybe Santa just decided not to bring you any presents--who can know the will of Santa? Santa answers yes, no and not yet.


No presents meant he didn't ask for them right, or hard enough. He didn't have enough belief (faith) in Santa. He was asking for selfish reasons. These are in addition to nogodsforme's reasons.

Surely you cannot prove he does not exist! There are: songs, poems, books, and movies about him and so much more! Surely these would not exist if he weren't real!

There's a reason people abandon Satan belief but not God belief.
I am sure you are intelligent enough to figure out the reason on your own.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1549 on: November 02, 2013, 10:09:21 PM »
No. It is childish nonsense.
...just like Christian apologetics.  That's the point.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1550 on: November 02, 2013, 10:11:28 PM »
No. It is childish nonsense.
...just like Christian apologetics.  That's the point.

Hmmmmm...I guess that's why you have many skeptics taking apologetic arguments very seriously and coming up with refutations of them.

If it was so silly, there would be no need to even address it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1551 on: November 02, 2013, 10:18:07 PM »
They aren't arguments.  They're ad-hoc explanations.  And if people weren't so silly in proposing them and holding to them, then you're right, they wouldn't garner attention.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1552 on: November 02, 2013, 10:22:59 PM »
They aren't arguments.  They're ad-hoc explanations.  And if people weren't so silly in proposing them and holding to them, then you're right, they wouldn't garner attention.

Plenty of people seem to think the apologetic arguments are a stonewall.

Plenty of them haven't been refuted, such as the design argument and the moral argument.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1553 on: November 02, 2013, 10:44:01 PM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1554 on: November 02, 2013, 10:45:18 PM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1555 on: November 02, 2013, 11:17:59 PM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

No it's not. You won't be here forever. ;)

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1556 on: November 02, 2013, 11:46:16 PM »

There's a reason people abandon Satan belief but not God belief.
I am sure you are intelligent enough to figure out the reason on your own.

Though, there's the bribe and penalty between believing in Santa, it's simply a matter of getting presents at Christmas... and most parents still give presents after you state disbelief...

Noticing the similarities between God and Santa the asking about the disbelief in God nets a very different response. Between the bribery and threats of not only eternal damnation, but even being thrown out to fend for yourself at a very young age. The truth has nothing to fear from doubt and questions. If every truth pointed to God then there's nothing for the church to fear, but it doesn't. The truth causes the church to loose it's control overpeople that it's held onto for thousands of years. While there are a few good people deluded to believe in the church, it's really about power and control, not love or truth.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1557 on: November 03, 2013, 12:01:14 AM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

No, I mean actually ignoring.  The "refutations" of evolution, from the Banana argument to the "Monkeys are still around" argument, actually do get read.

This debate is endless.

When one side holds faith up as a virtue, nothing reasonable can ever get through.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 12:21:45 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1558 on: November 03, 2013, 12:15:16 AM »
You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

It is funny how such "refutations" are always destroyed, i wonder why? Ohh, could it be that the refutation was incorrect?

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1559 on: November 03, 2013, 02:39:15 AM »
When one side holds gullibility[1] up as a virtue, nothing reasonable can ever get through.
 1. aka faith

Fixed.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1560 on: November 03, 2013, 04:36:16 AM »
Just because I believe in God and I explain the things God does, this does not mean I would do everything the way God does it if God gave me power to be God.


Shep finally agrees that his demon is not the same as the Yahweh of the bible.

I gave a summary of his previous mistakes in 1540.

Discussion over.


Now deal with the demon (SPAD). D for demon.

Shep,

Is it true that demons give false information and lies? Do you want me to give a list of false statements you have made about subjects you have never studied?

Is it normal to see all the things you said you saw? Ask yourself, is it normal?


« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 05:15:05 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1561 on: November 03, 2013, 08:43:47 AM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

and how you ignore the refutations of *those* refutations?
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1562 on: November 03, 2013, 10:01:41 AM »

Plenty of people seem to think the apologetic arguments are a stonewall.

Plenty of them haven't been refuted, such as the design argument and the moral argument.

I used to be a Christian apologist, debating with non-believers (using those arguments and others just like you are trying now) for many years. Sorry, those argument HAVE been refuted, many times over. You just aren't looking online for their refutations because you aren't sincere and don't WANT to be rational or impartial. You are slanted toward the assumption you made at the outset and you're hard set on defending it no matter what. That's called confirmation bias. It shows that you don't care about truth (as you already admitted toward the beginning of this discussion). What also shows it is how you ignore people's posts (like mine above) when you have been refuted.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 10:04:19 AM by median »
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1563 on: November 03, 2013, 10:13:26 AM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

The definition of evolution is a change of inherited characteristics of biological populations over time. You think that's been refuted? LOL. No, it hasn't. You are just ignorant of the science and reject it a priori due to your preciously protected assumption about the bible.

This debate doesn't have to be endless. Just stop using irrational (illogical) arguments and it will be over.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1564 on: November 03, 2013, 10:58:01 AM »
As long as you can avoid reading the refutations, you can keep your faith in their nonexistence.

You mean like how you guys ignore the refutations of evolution?

This debate is endless.

The definition of evolution is a change of inherited characteristics of biological populations over time. You think that's been refuted? LOL. No, it hasn't. You are just ignorant of the science and reject it a priori due to your preciously protected assumption about the bible.

This debate doesn't have to be endless. Just stop using irrational (illogical) arguments and it will be over.

No I have asked many times for empirical evidence of a new species coming from the first cells that existed.

According to evolution, the first cells came into existence billions of years ago. How do we get a different type of species from those cells?

Those cells turned into.......what?

Nobody has answered this yet. Dawkins was stumped too.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1565 on: November 03, 2013, 11:34:54 AM »

As someone stated before.... Looking for the exact moment that an emergent species develops is like looking for the exact moment a drop of water erodes a rock.