Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 21062 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6220
  • Darwins +783/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1450 on: October 31, 2013, 10:51:47 AM »
She explains that in her post.  I realize you've got to keep the emotional walls up when reading posts by other people, otherwise real insight might slip into your head, but try lowering them just enough to be able to read a bit...

Since I never claimed that God will answer every single prayer, including contradictory prayers, you are just huffing and puffing and blowing down a house of straw.

Did god answer your prayer to heal the dog? Yes or No? If god had not healed the dog, would that have been proof that god did not exist?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1451 on: October 31, 2013, 10:56:56 AM »
Biblegod  can heal dogs but not humans.

What does Biblegod  care about a dog?

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1800
  • Darwins +191/-15
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1452 on: October 31, 2013, 02:11:15 PM »
WHY WON'T GOD HEAL AMPUTEE PETS?


Prayer is unreliable and fairs no better than not praying.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline neopagan

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
  • Darwins +86/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1453 on: October 31, 2013, 02:14:11 PM »
Biblegod  can heal dogs but not humans.

What does Biblegod  care about a dog?

-Nam

Gawd loves dogs - they can lick their own genitals...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1800
  • Darwins +191/-15
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1454 on: October 31, 2013, 02:26:14 PM »

Believe me, I fought it. Nobody wants a master that has rules for your life. After the dog was healed, I was looking for ANY reason to break my promise to the Lord. I was thinking, "Maybe it's just a huge coincidence that the dog was healed. Maybe God did heal the dog, but He doesn't expect me to keep my promise, I wanna live my own life. Why would God heal a dog?"

I was making excuses in order to keep living my own life. When I realized that I was just being selfish, I embraced the Lord and never looked back.

It's hard to admit we have somebody to answer to. Everyone wants to live however they want, do whatever they want, whenever they want.

Everyone in the world does whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want (in general) - and you are no exception just b/c you believe in a magical, 'God' thing. Just b/c you have decided to follow the make-believe deity in your head doesn't mean you aren't doing what you WANT to do. So you don't escape this situation regardless of how much you want to tell yourself you do. You (just like everyone else) make decisions everyday based upon what you want (i.e. - your will). The difference is, you are trying to pretend that some 'higher power' is guiding you (just like other religions), yet you have no evidence for this - just empty irrational claims.

No, we don't believe you.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1455 on: October 31, 2013, 02:30:23 PM »
Biblegod  can heal dogs but not humans.

What does Biblegod  care about a dog?

-Nam

Gawd loves dogs - they can lick their own genitals...

Good times, I bet.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1850
  • Darwins +320/-6
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1456 on: October 31, 2013, 02:40:22 PM »
Gawd loves dogs - they can lick their own genitals...

Good times, I bet.

-Nam
My cousin Walter didn't think it was such a good time.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1457 on: October 31, 2013, 02:43:40 PM »
I used to know a dog who loved balls for breakfast---bouncy ones.

;)

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2401
  • Darwins +39/-405
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1458 on: October 31, 2013, 04:41:44 PM »
WHY WON'T GOD HEAL AMPUTEE PETS?


Prayer is unreliable and fairs no better than not praying.

Life is full of trials and tribulations which toughens us up for Heaven.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2401
  • Darwins +39/-405
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1459 on: October 31, 2013, 04:43:00 PM »
Did god answer your prayer to heal the dog? Yes or No? If god had not healed the dog, would that have been proof that god did not exist?

That sounds like Schrodinger's evidence.

The dog being healed is both evidence and not evidence for God at the same time, according to you.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6220
  • Darwins +783/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1460 on: October 31, 2013, 04:57:02 PM »
WHY WON'T GOD HEAL AMPUTEE PETS?


Prayer is unreliable and fairs no better than not praying.

Life is full of trials and tribulations which toughens us up for Heaven.

As a former JW kid, I do know my Revelations:

Rev. 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away

Why do we need to be tough in heaven? What trials await us there?

Besides that does not answer the question as to why prayer (to every god every known of, from Baal to Durga to Jehovah to Shango) and no prayer at all give exactly the same results.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2932
  • Darwins +237/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1461 on: October 31, 2013, 05:13:58 PM »
Life is full of trials and tribulations which toughens us up for Heaven.

Heaven must be a nasty place, then.  As Nogodsforme just pointed out, why would we have to "toughen up"?  I've even heard some apologists assert that our memories of Earth, and memories of our loved ones, will be bulk-erased from our brains so that we won't worry about Cousin Jenny burning in Hell while we're living the good afterlife.

That brings Me to another question...

Given that human consciousness ceases upon death, and given that consciousness appears to be dependent on a functioning mind, it's reasonable to assume that the god of the Bible will have to reconstruct the personalities and awareness of the deceased.

But why would it go to the trouble of reconstructing the mind of a deceased "unrepentant sinner," only to either destroy it again or cast it fully conscious into an eternal Hell? That's seriously messed-up.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline William

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3564
  • Darwins +92/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1462 on: October 31, 2013, 05:22:24 PM »
Being in heaven is sounding more and more like being a piece of blank wallpaper stuck on God's living room wall - blank and stuck :?
Git mit uns

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6220
  • Darwins +783/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1463 on: October 31, 2013, 05:25:06 PM »
Did god answer your prayer to heal the dog? Yes or No? If god had not healed the dog, would that have been proof that god did not exist?

That sounds like Schrodinger's evidence.

The dog being healed is both evidence and not evidence for God at the same time, according to you.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that if an answered prayer is to be taken as evidence for god, than an unanswered prayer has to be taken as evidence of no god. Logic.

What you are arguing is that no matter what the outcome of your prayer, it is still evidence for god. If you pray and the dog gets well, then god exists, because he healed the dog as a consequence of your prayer. But if you pray and the dog (or in my sister's case, the cat) does not get well, you are saying that god still exists but just chose not to answer that prayer. Not logical. You are trying to have it both ways. Do you see why? 

Now, realize that I am just arguing for the sake of argument here. I do not think that god ever answers prayers because there is no god to answer prayers. That is why prayers that are answered are always things that could happen by other means than the supernatural.

Dogs get better, people find jobs, football teams win, addicted teens stop taking drugs, and someone's stolen car gets found. Whether anyone prayed or not. These things happen in the lives of atheists and religious folk alike. If good stuff like that only happened when people prayed we would start to notice.

Impossible prayers, like no tornadoes, hurricanes, or earthquakes anywhere for a solid year, a veteran's missing arm grows back whole, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell spontaneously combust into fireworks on the front lawn of the Congress, every refugee from Syria is able to return home safely this weekend, every child with cancer in the world is completely cured and cancer-free by tomorrow morning--so-called miracles--never, ever happen.

Those would require supernatural intervention, at least as far as we know. With cameras, internet and 24-hour news, there is no way it would be a secret if a miracle happened. No confirmed report of anything like that. Ever. Most religions say they used to happen, all the time. They just don't anymore, now that we have aforementioned cameras and the internet.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2932
  • Darwins +237/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1464 on: October 31, 2013, 05:25:57 PM »
Being in heaven is sounding more and more like being a piece of blank wallpaper stuck on God's living room wall - blank and stuck :?

Yellow wallpaper, to be specific. 
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2401
  • Darwins +39/-405
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1465 on: October 31, 2013, 05:30:19 PM »
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that if an answered prayer is to be taken as evidence for god, than an unanswered prayer has to be taken as evidence of no god. Logic.

How do you reconcile that position?

Are you admitting the dog being healed is evidence for God or not?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1800
  • Darwins +191/-15
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1466 on: October 31, 2013, 05:40:57 PM »
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that if an answered prayer is to be taken as evidence for god, than an unanswered prayer has to be taken as evidence of no god. Logic.

How do you reconcile that position?

Are you admitting the dog being healed is evidence for God or not?

Can you read? It's called a conditional statement. If you think a dog being healed is evidence FOR your God existing, then it follows that unanswered prayer is evidence AGAINST your God existing. Either way, your supernaturlism goes out the window. You can't just make shit up on the fly and act like it solves anything.

I asked you a while ago and you never responded: How do you tell the difference between a miracle and non-miracle?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6220
  • Darwins +783/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1467 on: October 31, 2013, 05:43:44 PM »
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that if an answered prayer is to be taken as evidence for god, than an unanswered prayer has to be taken as evidence of no god. Logic.

How do you reconcile that position?

Are you admitting the dog being healed is evidence for God or not?

That was an if-then statement. What do you call that in logic, a conditional? We assume something and then see if the logic holds.

Let's say that the dog being healed is evidence for god. Go, god! Yay! I believe!

But my sister's cat was not healed, and I don't know anyone who prayed harder.[1]

If we believe there is a god and that he has this healing power, where do we go with this? Do we have to assume that there is a god who heals dogs, but not cats? That my sister should have prayed to a different god, maybe one that cares more about cats? Or that god is just kinda arbitrary and sometimes doesn't answer prayers no matter what?  :?
 1. I think she really began to question the whole prayer and god thing after that. She promised god that she would do anything, absolutely anything, if Taylor survived. Saving one little cat should not be that big of a deal to a god who created the whole world. God must not have wanted her that much because the cat dying damaged what little religious faith my sister had, and pushed her towards the atheist camp.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6220
  • Darwins +783/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1468 on: October 31, 2013, 05:47:25 PM »
Didn't see your message, median.

Let's make it a simple equation:

dying dog gets better=god exists

dying dog dies=?

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Ivellios

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1077
  • Darwins +52/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Seek and Ye Shall Find
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1469 on: October 31, 2013, 05:48:04 PM »
Nah. God answered Skeptical's prayer so God is real for him.

God refused to answer the prayer for the cat, to show that he does not exist.

Honestly, I think God rolls a 20 sided die and if he gets a crit, I mean a 20, he answers it. A 1, nets the worst possible outcome and everything else... meh. ;)

That is, if there's a god.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1470 on: October 31, 2013, 05:57:44 PM »
Who Cares about cats?

Cats are lazy bums. Ignore you. Scratches up shit. Making trouble. Leaving dead animals in your shoes...maybe he meant Republicans.

;)

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1800
  • Darwins +191/-15
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1471 on: October 31, 2013, 06:05:32 PM »
Another way of putting it is: How do you tell the difference between answered prayer and a mere coincidence?

They are indistinguishable.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 06:56:15 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4403
  • Darwins +97/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1472 on: October 31, 2013, 08:42:08 PM »

Believe me, I fought it. Nobody wants a master that has rules for your life. After the dog was healed, I was looking for ANY reason to break my promise to the Lord. I was thinking, "Maybe it's just a huge coincidence that the dog was healed. Maybe God did heal the dog, but He doesn't expect me to keep my promise, I wanna live my own life. Why would God heal a dog?"

I was making excuses in order to keep living my own life. When I realized that I was just being selfish, I embraced the Lord and never looked back.

It's hard to admit we have somebody to answer to. Everyone wants to live however they want, do whatever they want, whenever they want.

Everyone in the world does whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want (in general) - and you are no exception just b/c you believe in a magical, 'God' thing. Just b/c you have decided to follow the make-believe deity in your head doesn't mean you aren't doing what you WANT to do. So you don't escape this situation regardless of how much you want to tell yourself you do. You (just like everyone else) make decisions everyday based upon what you want (i.e. - your will). The difference is, you are trying to pretend that some 'higher power' is guiding you (just like other religions), yet you have no evidence for this - just empty irrational claims.

No, we don't believe you.
The believer's dismiss almost every rule God has made on a daily basis. Cutting their hair,wearing mixed fabrics,tattoo's,working the Sabbath and more examples,God is ok with it,somehow.

 Their magic excuse is that God expects them not to obey,because they are not "perfect". You just have to follow the rules to follow the rules it has NOTHING to do with being or not being perfect. They don't follow the rules because they don't WANT to follow the rules.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11680
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1473 on: October 31, 2013, 08:46:19 PM »
Actually, I think it's more to do with, "Jesus has paid for our sins in his death." not necessarily because they are not perfect.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4403
  • Darwins +97/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1474 on: October 31, 2013, 09:27:43 PM »
AAAHHH the get out of Jesus free card. How convenient,I don't have to follow God's rules cuz Jesus(actually God) loves me.

 Jesus was "sacrificed" to include all humans with the covenant with God not to exclude them from his(God's) rules. Dying for sin,not for breaking the rules of God,Jesus did.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Ivellios

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1077
  • Darwins +52/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Seek and Ye Shall Find
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1475 on: October 31, 2013, 11:07:58 PM »
Despite the fact that Jesus himself said, "I have not come to abolish the law, but to follow it. I tell you the truth: Not one jot, not one iota will pass from the law till ALL has been fufilled."

They forget that Jesus is there for them if they tried yet failed, not to do whatever they want, then activate thier forgive-o-matic. Jesus asks his followers to repent[1] and follow him. But Christians neither repent nor follow him. Making 'Christian' a misnomer... actually it should be Paulian because when Paul contradicts Jesus, who's edicts do Christians choose to follow? Paul's!
 1. which a condition is to try not to make the same sin again.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2401
  • Darwins +39/-405
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1476 on: October 31, 2013, 11:54:06 PM »
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that if an answered prayer is to be taken as evidence for god, than an unanswered prayer has to be taken as evidence of no god. Logic.

How do you reconcile that position?

Are you admitting the dog being healed is evidence for God or not?

Can you read? It's called a conditional statement. If you think a dog being healed is evidence FOR your God existing, then it follows that unanswered prayer is evidence AGAINST your God existing. Either way, your supernaturlism goes out the window. You can't just make shit up on the fly and act like it solves anything.

I asked you a while ago and you never responded: How do you tell the difference between a miracle and non-miracle?

If the healed dog proves God exists and an unhealed cat proves God doesn't exist, we have a contradiction on our hands. How can it be evidence for both? God either exists or He doesn't. It can not be a contradiction.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12210
  • Darwins +267/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1477 on: October 31, 2013, 11:56:47 PM »
The proposition is true or false, as you say, and cannot be both at the same time[1].  But evidence for and against a proposition can both exist simultaneously.
 1. Unless reality is subjective, as you've put forth elsewhere...but let's not complicate this with that just now.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2401
  • Darwins +39/-405
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1478 on: November 01, 2013, 12:01:21 AM »
The proposition is true or false, as you say, and cannot be both at the same time[1].  But evidence for and against a proposition can both exist simultaneously.
 1. Unless reality is subjective, as you've put forth elsewhere...but let's not complicate this with that just now.

So you agree it is evidence that God exists?

And I don't believe reality is subjective.
I always said that according to atheistic materialism, you can't empirically prove an external world exists independent of the senses. It is merely taken on assumption.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)