Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 26435 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1421 on: October 29, 2013, 10:57:14 PM »
How much would you lose if you were wrong skep? What would happen if you found out that you have been wrong this whole time (that the bible is not the word of god etc)? What would it cost you socially, emotionally, and/or financially? Would you lose most of your friends, family, co-workers, and/or peers? Like most Christians (unfortunately), you seem to have a vested interested in protecting this assumption investment of yours (out of fear). Can you see how that leads to confirmation bias?

I don't have a vested interest in protecting it. It's just been proven to me so I stick with it. If it wasn't proven to me, I would be ridiculing it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1422 on: October 29, 2013, 11:04:33 PM »
Funny how his mind works though, isn't it? He prays to a supernatural being that is obsessed with blood to heal an animal, the being answered his prayer, and now he will worship this being for the rest of his life. But if anyone else prays to a different supernatural being, and that being answers their prayers, then it's an evil demon which may or may not be as blood crazed as his god. 100% polemic way of thinking.

Believe me, I fought it. Nobody wants a master that has rules for your life. After the dog was healed, I was looking for ANY reason to break my promise to the Lord. I was thinking, "Maybe it's just a huge coincidence that the dog was healed. Maybe God did heal the dog, but He doesn't expect me to keep my promise, I wanna live my own life. Why would God heal a dog?"

I was making excuses in order to keep living my own life. When I realized that I was just being selfish, I embraced the Lord and never looked back.

It's hard to admit we have somebody to answer to. Everyone wants to live however they want, do whatever they want, whenever they want.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1423 on: October 30, 2013, 12:08:31 AM »
I was thinking, "Maybe it's just a huge coincidence that the dog was healed."

At least you thought critically for a second.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1424 on: October 30, 2013, 12:20:53 AM »
At least you thought critically for a second.

No. It was wishful thinking.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1425 on: October 30, 2013, 12:54:38 AM »
No. It was wishful thinking.

I prayed for a lot of things in my teenage years: for my grandmother to get over the flu, for world peace, for God to take care of my cat when he got to heaven, etc. When I was in high school I selfishly prayed to God for a Corvette. Guess what my parents bought me? An old beater C3 vette so I could learn to work on cars. Did God answer my prayers? No. Of course not. Take the time to understand the ambiguity of prayer. Why would God heal that dog? Really, why do you think he did it? It's unbelievably self centered to think you're a special snowflake - just special enough that Yahweh, Caananite War God answered your prayer about some sick pooch when there are millions of human beings suffering and dying, not having their prayers answered. Probably just part of the plan, huh?

God either works in mysterious assinine ways or when someone prays to find their car keys and they miraculously find them in the couch it's...complete coincidence. Those things would have happened regardless of prayer, just like I would have received that vette as a graduation gift if I had prayed to a milk jug.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1426 on: October 30, 2013, 12:59:53 AM »
I prayed for a lot of things in my teenage years: for my grandmother to get over the flu, for world peace, for God to take care of my cat when he got to heaven, etc. When I was in high school I selfishly prayed to God for a Corvette. Guess what my parents bought me? An old beater C3 vette so I could learn to work on cars. Did God answer my prayers? No. Of course not. Take the time to understand the ambiguity of prayer. Why would God heal that dog? Really, why do you think he did it? It's unbelievably self centered to think you're a special snowflake - just special enough that Yahweh, Caananite War God answered your prayer about some sick pooch when there are millions of human beings suffering and dying, not having their prayers answered. Probably just part of the plan, huh?

God either works in mysterious assinine ways or when someone prays to find their car keys and they miraculously find them in the couch it's...complete coincidence. Those things would have happened regardless of prayer, just like I would have received that vette as a graduation gift if I had prayed to a milk jug.

Your arguments are based on a logical fallacy: argument from incredulity.

You can't think of a reason that God would heal the dog, so you think God didn't do it or God doesn't exist. But, just because you can't think of a reason, it doesn't follow that there is no reason. You would also have to be omniscient to know that there is no reason, and you're not omniscient.

2 big problems with your argument. I think atheists are starting to realize their arguments are based on incredulity.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1427 on: October 30, 2013, 01:03:38 AM »
That's not his argument.

Why not try to understand his argument before trying to refute it?  You're much more convincing if you do it that way.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1428 on: October 30, 2013, 01:12:51 AM »
That's not his argument.

Why not try to understand his argument before trying to refute it?  You're much more convincing if you do it that way.

I highly doubt that.

;)

-Nam
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1429 on: October 30, 2013, 01:15:43 AM »
Azdgari is correct, that's not my argument.

Plus I shouldn't even have to offer an alternate explanation in order to challenge the assumption: "I experienced a middle eastern war god heal a friggin' dog."

skeptic has not and can not even demonstrate that the dog was healed, or that it was his god, or that gods exist at all for that matter. He's jumping to a conclusion based on an ambiguously answered prayer while assuming Yahweh exists.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1430 on: October 30, 2013, 01:17:39 AM »
Your arguments are based on a logical fallacy: argument from incredulity.

You can't think of a reason that God would heal the dog, so you think God didn't do it or God doesn't exist. But, just because you can't think of a reason, it doesn't follow that there is no reason. You would also have to be omniscient to know that there is no reason, and you're not omniscient.

2 big problems with your argument. I think atheists are starting to realize their arguments are based on incredulity.

I don't see it as an argument from incredulity, Skeptic.  It looks more like you've artificially narrowed the options here to "Either the god of the Bible healed the dog, or the dog just healed for no particular reason" -- In other words, a false dichotomy fallacy.

There is a nearly infinite range of possibilities here.  Perhaps the dog wasn't as sick as you thought it was.  Perhaps the person doing the healing possessed an unknown ability to heal, an ability that could benefit millions if it was properly investigated.

And perhaps it was the work of a god-like being, but not the one you thought it was:  What if there exists a benevolent being that helps people without regard to their actual beliefs?

The problem with assuming a god did it, though, is that many of us here did try to cultivate a relationship with the same god that you worship.  For us, it didn't work.  Our prayers were not answered, and for that reason we are justifiably skeptical about the power of prayer.  I, for one, would rather explore the natural world for answers because those kinds of answers can be understood and replicated, and thus benefit more than one dog... Or one person searching for a parking spot... Or anyone who has asked the gods for something they could have achieved under their own power.
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1431 on: October 30, 2013, 02:25:23 AM »
How much would you lose if you were wrong skep? What would happen if you found out that you have been wrong this whole time (that the bible is not the word of god etc)? What would it cost you socially, emotionally, and/or financially? Would you lose most of your friends, family, co-workers, and/or peers? Like most Christians (unfortunately), you seem to have a vested interested in protecting this assumption investment of yours (out of fear). Can you see how that leads to confirmation bias?

I don't have a vested interest in protecting it. It's just been proven to me so I stick with it. If it wasn't proven to me, I would be ridiculing it.


When you have to use irrational (logically fallacious) arguments in an attempt to back up your position, then clearly you are wrong in your interpretation as to what has been "proven to you" (and your interpretation needs to be revised. Stop leading the evidence! Proof requires evidence, and you don't have that - just claims and assumptions. Convincing yourself of what you already wanted to believe is not sufficient for accepting an extraordinary religious interpretation of an experience or phenomena. You are practicing credulity and confirmation bias (quite clearly) and refuse to see it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1432 on: October 30, 2013, 03:41:04 AM »

There is a nearly infinite range of possibilities here.  Perhaps the dog wasn't as sick as you thought it was.  Perhaps the person doing the healing possessed an unknown ability to heal, an ability that could benefit millions if it was properly investigated.


This is a chinaman, using Qi, to make Bison go to sleep.


...or , is it a demon power that he possesses? Is it Satan flowing from his hands? Is it total shit? Stan Lee says I have the choice to choose.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1433 on: October 30, 2013, 09:14:20 AM »
I prayed for a lot of things in my teenage years: for my grandmother to get over the flu, for world peace, for God to take care of my cat when he got to heaven, etc. When I was in high school I selfishly prayed to God for a Corvette. Guess what my parents bought me? An old beater C3 vette so I could learn to work on cars. Did God answer my prayers? No. Of course not. Take the time to understand the ambiguity of prayer. Why would God heal that dog? Really, why do you think he did it? It's unbelievably self centered to think you're a special snowflake - just special enough that Yahweh, Caananite War God answered your prayer about some sick pooch when there are millions of human beings suffering and dying, not having their prayers answered. Probably just part of the plan, huh?

God either works in mysterious assinine ways or when someone prays to find their car keys and they miraculously find them in the couch it's...complete coincidence. Those things would have happened regardless of prayer, just like I would have received that vette as a graduation gift if I had prayed to a milk jug.

Your arguments are based on a logical fallacy: argument from incredulity.

You can't think of a reason that God would heal the dog, so you think God didn't do it or God doesn't exist. But, just because you can't think of a reason, it doesn't follow that there is no reason. You would also have to be omniscient to know that there is no reason, and you're not omniscient.

2 big problems with your argument. I think atheists are starting to realize their arguments are based on incredulity.
Why is it that you think God healed the dog? Praying for it made it real?
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1434 on: October 30, 2013, 10:23:50 AM »

Your arguments are based on a logical fallacy: argument from incredulity.

You can't think of a reason that God would heal the dog, so you think God didn't do it or God doesn't exist. But, just because you can't think of a reason, it doesn't follow that there is no reason. You would also have to be omniscient to know that there is no reason, and you're not omniscient.

2 big problems with your argument. I think atheists are starting to realize their arguments are based on incredulity.

In this instance the burden of proof would be on YOU to demonstrate there actually is such a thing as "God", and the post regarding the dogs does NOT acknowledge that there is such a thing. That is where you are just wrong here in your accusation of incredulity fallacy. The argument is that the entire idea is absurd. Supernatural explanations are simply useless for explaining anything. They have ZERO explanatory power b/c they don't give us any valuable information for making predictions, and they don't give us any details regarding how or why things happened the way they did. Attempting to answer a mystery by another bigger mystery is always faulty. You should just admit you don't know when you don't have sound evidence to backup your claims.

Further, if you are going to attempt to argue miracles please be prepared to demonstrate how you distinguish between miracles and non-miracles.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 10:27:17 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1435 on: October 30, 2013, 11:11:50 AM »
I think atheists are starting to realize their arguments are based on incredulity.

?  Specifically what atheists are starting to realize that and why do you think such a thing?


As for you belief in god - you believe because you prayed for something and that something happened to come true.  The human brain is hard wired to connect actions or events that happen in a close time frame and assume they are causally related.  It is something that happens automatically.  This is a bias and it often leads us to believe ridiculous things.  Go to a kasino[1] and observe.  Or a church.  Or anywhere. 

Some people think beating on their dashboard makes their car start.  It probably doesn't. 
Some people think growing a beard makes their football team win.  It probably doesn't.
Some people think praying to a minor iron age deity makes their wishes come true.  It probably doesn't.

So, you may be convinced, but that is just your poorly evolved and almost completely irrational brain at work.  But don't feel bad.  It's not just you.  It's everyone.  We are chimps with cell phones.

 1. the correct spelling gave me a 404 error
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1436 on: October 30, 2013, 03:09:48 PM »
At least you thought critically for a second.

No. It was wishful thinking.

You made a bargain with god-- heal this dog and I will follow you. Others have told you why this does not make sense, but let's go with that as reality. You prayed for the dog to get well and it did, so, god exists and you will follow him. Good enough.

My sister almost lost her mind when her beloved cat died; seriously, she would have given over her life to any deity if it had saved little Taylor. If Krishna had healed Taylor, my sister would be a Hindu now.[1] She spent money she did not have on cat intensive care, drove the cat to a daily service so it got i.v. medication day and night, cashed in an inheritance, took time off from work to nurse him. And the little guy went to kitty heaven anyway. Her prayers were in vain-- god did not heal her cat.

On the basis of my sister's experience, does god exist?

You realize what I am getting at. Since the dog getting well is evidence for god, than would the dog dying have been evidence for no god?
 1. Great missed opportunity for a demon to sneak in, right there! You would think that Satan would have figured out by now that people will do anything for their loved ones. If he really wanted to rack up the souls, he should be healing amputees, curing childhood cancer and ending famines right and left...
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1437 on: October 31, 2013, 12:58:52 AM »
You made a bargain with god-- heal this dog and I will follow you. Others have told you why this does not make sense, but let's go with that as reality. You prayed for the dog to get well and it did, so, god exists and you will follow him. Good enough.

My sister almost lost her mind when her beloved cat died; seriously, she would have given over her life to any deity if it had saved little Taylor. If Krishna had healed Taylor, my sister would be a Hindu now.[1] She spent money she did not have on cat intensive care, drove the cat to a daily service so it got i.v. medication day and night, cashed in an inheritance, took time off from work to nurse him. And the little guy went to kitty heaven anyway. Her prayers were in vain-- god did not heal her cat.

On the basis of my sister's experience, does god exist?

You realize what I am getting at. Since the dog getting well is evidence for god, than would the dog dying have been evidence for no god?
 1. Great missed opportunity for a demon to sneak in, right there! You would think that Satan would have figured out by now that people will do anything for their loved ones. If he really wanted to rack up the souls, he should be healing amputees, curing childhood cancer and ending famines right and left...

Are you agreeing that this is evidence for God?

If not, how can something be both "evidence for God" and "not evidence for God" at the same time?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1438 on: October 31, 2013, 01:04:24 AM »
She explains that in her post.  I realize you've got to keep the emotional walls up when reading posts by other people, otherwise real insight might slip into your head, but try lowering them just enough to be able to read a bit...
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1439 on: October 31, 2013, 01:06:42 AM »
Are you agreeing that this is evidence for God?

If not, how can something be both "evidence for God" and "not evidence for God" at the same time?

You seem to not understand that atheists argue from both their own point of view, and the apparent beliefs of the Christian they are arguing with, to point out other alternatives and inconsistencies.

You say God did it, but any agent, including evil or another god could have done it, or none at all.

The intention is to make you see that Yahweh is not the only explanation.

You could move the conversation along without questioning this, unless you have nothing else to say.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1440 on: October 31, 2013, 01:09:46 AM »
She explains that in her post.  I realize you've got to keep the emotional walls up when reading posts by other people, otherwise real insight might slip into your head, but try lowering them just enough to be able to read a bit...

Since I never claimed that God will answer every single prayer, including contradictory prayers, you are just huffing and puffing and blowing down a house of straw.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1441 on: October 31, 2013, 01:12:38 AM »
When you attempt to the assert the supernatural and/or mystical as an explanation for a given phenomena that has occurred, all bets are off and anything goes. Since reason no longer guides your decision making process as to what the specific cause of a specific event is (and no explanation other than a supernatural one will suffice you) then anyone, of any religion or nutzoid persuasion, can equally posit anything they want and you have no better say then they do. In other words, when mysteries are posited to explain other mysteries there is only the blind leading the blind. Way to go dark-ages!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 01:14:12 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1442 on: October 31, 2013, 01:13:07 AM »
and blowing down a house of straw.

Well, then, your straw house is on the ground around you.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1443 on: October 31, 2013, 01:16:05 AM »
She explains that in her post.  I realize you've got to keep the emotional walls up when reading posts by other people, otherwise real insight might slip into your head, but try lowering them just enough to be able to read a bit...

Since I never claimed that God will answer every single prayer, including contradictory prayers, you are just huffing and puffing and blowing down a house of straw.

Yes, we know you make up your own version of Christianity to suite your feelings, whims, and personal tastes of who you think "God" is (and is not), just like all Christians do. The fact is, though, you haven't demonstrated your "God" or why anyone should take that book seriously - the same as you haven't demonstrated miracles or the supernatural. It is just credulity and gullibility with irrational arguments.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1444 on: October 31, 2013, 01:23:21 AM »
Since I never claimed that God will answer every single prayer, including contradictory prayers, you are just huffing and puffing and blowing down a house of straw.

She didn't claim that you did.  That's not her point.

Also, it was nogodsforme who wrote the post, so your "you" is misattributed.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1445 on: October 31, 2013, 01:28:45 AM »
Since I never claimed that God will answer every single prayer, including contradictory prayers, you are just huffing and puffing and blowing down a house of straw.

She didn't claim that you did.  That's not her point.

Also, it was nogodsforme who wrote the post, so your "you" is misattributed.

To him we are the Borg. He stated in another topic, in response to me, that I started the topic but someone else did.

Resistance is futile.

-Nam
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1446 on: October 31, 2013, 03:24:46 AM »
Great missed opportunity for a demon to sneak in, right there! You would think that Satan would have figured out by now that people will do anything for their loved ones. If he really wanted to rack up the souls, he should be healing amputees, curing childhood cancer and ending famines right and left..

Excellent point, nogods.

While in Christianity you could still sort of weasel out of this by claiming that God would never allow such a thing (never mind that this opens up a massive can or worms in and of itself), in Islam this makes loads of sense.
The quran clearly states that your lot in THIS life is no indication of your destination in the next life. You could have 80 years of the worst luck imaginable and still end up in heaven or have good health, riches, beautiful wives, strong sons and end up in hell. The quran further says that Allah is not going to change his plans just because you prayed. Add to this that Iblis was specifically given leave, by Allah, to subvert people and you have a much more likely scenario of Iblis intercepting Skeptics prayer, healing the dog and thereby ensnaring Skeptic in the worship of a false god. One more victory for Iblis![1]
 1. Luckily, for Skep, Iblis is as real as biblegod.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1447 on: October 31, 2013, 06:20:47 AM »
Satan lets a perfect opportunity pass to ensnare a soul, because he knows he'll get another chance... later? Is Satan omniscient?

Skeptical, YHWH acknowledges the existence of other gods, does not call them demons, but gods. He's just a jealous god. It's the Quran that states, "there is only One god." See Allah isn't afraid of insulting/offending other gods. By saying that one line, it makes saying, "Have no other gods before me," utterly pointless. Is YHWH a liar in that respect? The Quran says the Quran is true, even mentions itself by name... the Bible only says scripture. It's as if YHWH had no idea it would all be brought to one central location and called 'The Bible.'

Despite this the Quran itself is lacking as proof in Allah, as the Bible is lacking in proof for God.

Offline Benny

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1448 on: October 31, 2013, 07:12:38 AM »
Since I never claimed that God will answer every single prayer, including contradictory prayers, you are just huffing and puffing and blowing down a house of straw.
Well, I think the Bible would disagree with you on that.

Mark 11:24:

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Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 17:20:

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For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Matthew 21:21:

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I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Luke 1:37:

Quote
For with God nothing will be impossible.

Let me ask you a question: "How much of the Bible do you think is true?"

If all of it is true, then how do you explain this?
If none of it is true, then how can you be a Christian?
If part of it is true, then how do you know which parts?
I'm here every now and again.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1449 on: October 31, 2013, 08:22:01 AM »
Isn't it obvious?

Those aren't real verses, and are written by demons.

9_9
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