Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 26357 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1276 on: October 27, 2013, 08:08:27 AM »
. If I say I don't accept something because I don't feel it has been proven, then that is my choice. God has been proven to me, so I accept God's existence. But, I can't prove it to you. Macroevolution has not been proven to me, so I don't accept it. Maybe you guys accept it and feel it has been proven, but I don't.


Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1277 on: October 27, 2013, 08:43:13 AM »
Is it your position that a scientist who believes the Genesis account can not be considered a "true scientist?"  :o

Oh, they can.  They can be a truly inept scientist.

Or they can be a scientist in an unrelated field.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1278 on: October 27, 2013, 10:35:53 AM »
Macroevolution has not been proven to me, so I don't accept it.

Sure, sure.  I understand you feel it has not been proven to you.  I don't think that was my point. 

The problem is you remain unconvinced because of built in biases.  That is not just you, by the way.  You are not some outlier who has biases.  Everyone has them.  Humans are not inherently rational.  We think we are, but we're are far from it.  The brain is lazy, takes shortcuts, makes assumptions.  That is how the brain evolved.  Either that or yhwh did a shabby job with his brain design.  Either way, we need a system to help overcome these biases.  We call that system "science".  The methods used in science are supposed to filter out our biases to get to the truth.

Neither are you special in that you are unaware of them and untrained as to how to avoid them.  You and about 95%[1] of the rest of the human species fall into that category.



God did not "begin to exist." God always existed.
No end, no beginning. God is. God cannot not exist.

I cannot count how many people I have heard say these very things.  They all thought this was a winning argument.  But it is not.  They just put some words together which they thought got them out of a jam.  But just because some words are placed together does not make them have a coherent meaning.

What do those things mean?  How can god have no end or beginning?  Is he a circle?  What does it mean to always exist?  Especially when existence as we know it depends on time-space.  Unless you can explain how any of this is possible, they are just funny words, like a child's jibberish. 

And even if you can explain how it is possible, you would need to show how we could know it was true.  You may say these things about god, but really that is just playing with a definition. You have no way to verify it.   I could say gravity on earth accelerates objects at 10 m/s2.  And then we can go and verify it to see whether I am right.[2]  So how do we verify these things you say about god?

 1. probably more.  Like 99.99%
 2. If we did that, we would see I was wrong.  It is actually 9.81 m/s2
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1279 on: October 27, 2013, 10:52:19 AM »
This is the problem. You choose your position according to how you feel. You don't have enough education to understand the evidence. You don't have the courage to admit you don't know anything, so you make arrogant claims for yourself that you know more than other people about various subjects including about your god and that you are your god's hero and everyone else is led astray by demons.

I met someone similar to you. He also had no education and was bullied. Since he could never be anyone's hero in the real world, he made up his fantasy that he was his god's hero.

The thing is that I don't view myself as "God's hero." There's plenty of Christians who agree with my exact position and are saved as well. I am not the only one.

I told you guys that I have even lead people away from their false churches once I pointed out all the Satanic imagery to them. One of them even asked me, "How could I have been so foolish?" and started crying. I told them that it's not their fault and some people just don't do the research to find out if what they believe is true or not.

A Catholic also broke down when I showed them the symbol of Baal that priests use on their garments. he said, "Right in front of my nose this whole time and I had no idea. It's hidden in plain sight."

So no, I am not "God's hero." I am just saved.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Aaron123

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1280 on: October 27, 2013, 10:54:31 AM »
skeptic54768, I still want an answer to this (from when you were saying "atheism requires too much faith").


I was not aware that, apparently, there was some sort of "upper limit" to faith.  Exactly how do we measure faith, and make sure we're not doing too much of it?  I'd imagine that's important when you consider god.  You've got to be careful not to put too much faith into god.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1281 on: October 27, 2013, 11:01:00 AM »
This is the problem. You choose your position according to how you feel. You don't have enough education to understand the evidence. You don't have the courage to admit you don't know anything, so you make arrogant claims for yourself that you know more than other people about various subjects including about your god and that you are your god's hero and everyone else is led astray by demons.

I met someone similar to you. He also had no education and was bullied. Since he could never be anyone's hero in the real world, he made up his fantasy that he was his god's hero.

The thing is that I don't view myself as "God's hero." There's plenty of Christians who agree with my exact position and are saved as well. I am not the only one.

I told you guys that I have even lead people away from their false churches once I pointed out all the Satanic imagery to them. One of them even asked me, "How could I have been so foolish?" and started crying. I told them that it's not their fault and some people just don't do the research to find out if what they believe is true or not.

A Catholic also broke down when I showed them the symbol of Baal that priests use on their garments. he said, "Right in front of my nose this whole time and I had no idea. It's hidden in plain sight."

So no, I am not "God's hero." I am just saved.

Do you and your god have the same opinion about who is saved since you have taken it upon yourself to decide?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1282 on: October 27, 2013, 11:03:00 AM »
skeptic54768, I still want an answer to this (from when you were saying "atheism requires too much faith").


I was not aware that, apparently, there was some sort of "upper limit" to faith.  Exactly how do we measure faith, and make sure we're not doing too much of it?  I'd imagine that's important when you consider god.  You've got to be careful not to put too much faith into god.

I have great faith in God.

The problem is that atheists ridicule faith, when ironically, they have more faith than believers! ("Goo-to-you", "particles to people", "molecules to man" theory of evolution)

It's sort of tongue-in-cheek at them. They say faith is stupid, yet they have the most faith of all! Albeit, faith in the wrong things.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 11:12:33 AM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1283 on: October 27, 2013, 11:04:54 AM »
Do you and your god have the same opinion about who is saved since you have taken it upon yourself to decide?

I have not decided. God laid out how to be saved in the Bible. God decided.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Aaron123

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1284 on: October 27, 2013, 11:14:04 AM »
I have great faith in God.

The problem is that atheists ridicule faith, when ironically, they have more faith than believers!

It's sort of tongue-in-cheek at them. They say faith is stupid, yet they have the most faith of all! Albeit, faith in the wrong things.


You did nothing to answer my question.  Your original post was this:




Even if I was an atheist, I still would not be able to accept macroevolution. It takes way too much faith to believe that. More faith than believing in every religion combined.

So, you are wrong about the reasons I reject it. It is a faith masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is even worse. That hasn't even been empirically proven. Abiogenesis requires HUGE religious faith.


Here, you say that there is such a thing as "too much faith".  In order for your statement to make any sense, there would have to be some sort of "faith scale" that we'd need to refer to.  So how do we measure faith?  What counts as "off the scale"?  If there is such a thing as "too much faith", why don't believers talk about it more often?  You'd think it'd be important to tell fellow believers not to put too much stock into god, since faith, apparently, is a bad thing once we go beyond a certain level.  You have yet to say what that level is.

So what counts as "too much faith in god"?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1285 on: October 27, 2013, 11:20:27 AM »
Here, you say that there is such a thing as "too much faith".  In order for your statement to make any sense, there would have to be some sort of "faith scale" that we'd need to refer to.  So how do we measure faith?  What counts as "off the scale"?  If there is such a thing as "too much faith", why don't believers talk about it more often?  You'd think it'd be important to tell fellow believers not to put too much stock into god, since faith, apparently, is a bad thing once we go beyond a certain level.  You have yet to say what that level is.

So what counts as "too much faith in god"?

Faith in God is fine. You can never have too much faith.

An example of extreme faith would be someone watching a jar of water and saying, "Life is gonna form eventually!" as they stare at the cup of water day and night.

Or someone looking at this awesome beautiful world that was created for us only to say, "No God." Imagine the faith it must take to believe seeds formed on their own. Man can not create a seed from nothing. Heck, man cannot even create a grain of sand on their own and they want us to believe in goo-to-you, particles to people, molecules to man evolution!

Or if somebody stares at a dollar bill and has faith that it will turn into a million dollars.

Those are examples of extreme faith.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1286 on: October 27, 2013, 11:29:19 AM »
Do you and your god have the same opinion about who is saved since you have taken it upon yourself to decide?

I have not decided. God laid out how to be saved in the Bible. God decided.

Other people have also read the bible and reached different conclusions about how god wants people to be saved. Why is your interpretation the correct one? Why do you think most of the world has been led astray by demons, but you and your god have the same opinion?

I would like you to consider whether the reason that you and your god agree, is because your god is a construct of your own.

I'll leave you to think seriously about this since it should be important to you.
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Online Aaron123

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1287 on: October 27, 2013, 11:30:58 AM »

Faith in God is fine. You can never have too much faith.

An example of extreme faith would be someone watching a jar of water and saying, "Life is gonna form eventually!" as they stare at the cup of water day and night.

Or someone looking at this awesome beautiful world that was created for us only to say, "No God." Imagine the faith it must take to believe seeds formed on their own. Man can not create a seed from nothing. Heck, man cannot even create a grain of sand on their own and they want us to believe in goo-to-you, particles to people, molecules to man evolution!

Or if somebody stares at a dollar bill and has faith that it will turn into a million dollars.

Those are examples of extreme faith.


Quote
You can never have too much faith.


You have invalidated your own argument.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1288 on: October 27, 2013, 11:37:15 AM »
Do you and your god have the same opinion about who is saved since you have taken it upon yourself to decide?

I have not decided. God laid out how to be saved in the Bible. God decided.

Other people have also read the bible and reached different conclusions about how god wants people to be saved. Why is your interpretation the correct one? Why do you think most of the world has been led astray by demons, but you and your god have the same opinion?

I would like you to consider whether the reason that you and your god agree, is because your god is a construct of your own.

I'll leave you to think seriously about this since it should be important to you.

God never said to wear satanic symbols on your garments. God never said to celebrate mass every Sunday and beg people for money. God never said salvation is obtained through priests. God never said to pray to dead saints. The Catholic Church sells indulgences for time off in purgatory when God doesn't need money. it's obvious it's a demonic doctrine designed to scam people out of their money. Look at how rich the vatican is and how poor the surrounding people are. The church wants more and more money while the people get less and less.

God never said to pay priests money in the hopes you might be saved. He just said to believe in Jesus and you are saved. It's extremely simple. A mean God would make you pay for salvation and keep you guessing. God never said to ask priests for forgiveness. god says to ask him. Priests just want to hear gossip and keep you in line.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1289 on: October 27, 2013, 11:51:28 AM »

Faith in God is fine. You can never have too much faith.

An example of extreme faith would be someone watching a jar of water and saying, "Life is gonna form eventually!" as they stare at the cup of water day and night.

Or someone looking at this awesome beautiful world that was created for us only to say, "No God." Imagine the faith it must take to believe seeds formed on their own. Man can not create a seed from nothing. Heck, man cannot even create a grain of sand on their own and they want us to believe in goo-to-you, particles to people, molecules to man evolution!

Or if somebody stares at a dollar bill and has faith that it will turn into a million dollars.

Those are examples of extreme faith.


Quote
You can never have too much faith.


You have invalidated your own argument.

You can never have too much faith in God.
Goo to you is an example of extreme impossible faith.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1290 on: October 27, 2013, 12:05:25 PM »
I have great faith in God.

The problem is that atheists ridicule faith, when ironically, they have more faith than believers! ("Goo-to-you", "particles to people", "molecules to man" theory of evolution)

It's sort of tongue-in-cheek at them. They say faith is stupid, yet they have the most faith of all! Albeit, faith in the wrong things.

And the only reason why creationists say this is because they know it winds people up. They also know it's fundamentally a brazen lie, because accepting the mountain of scientific evidence in support of evolutionary Theory doesn't require any faith at all.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1291 on: October 27, 2013, 12:11:40 PM »
I have great faith in God.

The problem is that atheists ridicule faith, when ironically, they have more faith than believers! ("Goo-to-you", "particles to people", "molecules to man" theory of evolution)

It's sort of tongue-in-cheek at them. They say faith is stupid, yet they have the most faith of all! Albeit, faith in the wrong things.

And the only reason why creationists say this is because they know it winds people up. They also know it's fundamentally a brazen lie, because accepting the mountain of scientific evidence in support of evolutionary Theory doesn't require any faith at all.

Of course it requires faith.

has it been empirically proven that species can change into something completely different?
has it been empirically proven how the first life form started? How'd the amoeba crawl out of the mud? How'd it do it?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1292 on: October 27, 2013, 12:17:31 PM »
So how long was God waiting before creating, according to you?

Must have been an infinite amount of time.

No idea. But, if the universe is infinitely old, we would have run out of usable energy by now. We could not exist.

That pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems, such as the universe. The universe doesn't get energy from anywhere else.

If the universe began, it needed a cause.
If the universe is infinitely old, we could not exist so this option is OUT!

Quite a pickle.

It's funny how when you are utterly refuted on a topic you just jump to another topic to avoid the consequence. You get refuted on an assumption of 'God' in attempt to escape the idealism problem, then jump to the origin of the universe. Your arrogance in ignorance is astounding (all because you started with your conclusion and have been trying to work backwards - leading the evidence where you want it to go instead of following it).

It is interesting too that on both accounts (idealism and the origin of the universe) you attempt the infamous God of the Gaps fallacy (argument from incredulity) as an explanation, like the ancients did with lightening and thunder, (i.e. - trying to explain a mystery with a bigger mystery; where human knowledge ends your speculation turns to a hard-fast position). FAIL. The beginning of the universe cosmology doesn't say anything about "from ex-nihilo", and there are many theories still in the works. Merely sticking your flag post into the assumption you made from the beginning isn't science. It is CREDULITY. When science doesn't know something it admits it. That's what separates science from you (the closed-minded one who is unwilling to admit his ignorance and errors due to his presuppositions). Somehow you think you can subvert the scientific process of discovery (and admission of ignorance when required) all based upon the conclusion you started with. It's sad how willingly ignorant you are of the specific sciences of which we are discussing here, and yet you continue to pontificate in utter arrogance to counter-examples and rebuttal. Is there any closer definition of an asshole?


 
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Online jynnan tonnix

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1293 on: October 27, 2013, 12:20:44 PM »
Even if one were to grant that there might be one "true" faith, and many which fall short of the ideal (just for the sake of argument), why does everything need to be a total dichotomy of "truth" vs "demonic influence"? Is is so impossible that there might be those who simply misinterpret (easily enough done with the language of the Bible), or incorporate a symbol which might have had a different meaning hundreds of years ago but which has since come to be completely associated with a Christian faith? Why should they be judged for a mere symbol when its meaning has been completely revised? A symbol is only as meaningful as the meaning that is assigned to it. Just like the alphabet, which varies from language to language (look at the Cyrillic alphabet) or groupings of letters which spell one word in one language, but have a completely different meaning in another? Do the letters "PAIN" denote suffering or bread?

This is not even counting those of different faiths whose backgrounds may not even allow for the consideration of another path as they either believe their own just as fervently as you do yours, or are simply indoctrinated in one faith and not particularly spiritual enough by nature to question it.

I asked a variation of this some pages back, but never got an answer...Why exactly is it that a loving, omniscient and omnipotent god who wants nothing more than to see every soul saved would continue to accept a world of his own creation in which the power of these "demons" results in (according to your figures and understanding) some 98% of all people ever to live ending up destined for eternal torment?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1294 on: October 27, 2013, 12:22:47 PM »
So how long was God waiting before creating, according to you?

Must have been an infinite amount of time.

No idea. But, if the universe is infinitely old, we would have run out of usable energy by now. We could not exist.

That pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems, such as the universe. The universe doesn't get energy from anywhere else.

If the universe began, it needed a cause.
If the universe is infinitely old, we could not exist so this option is OUT!

Quite a pickle.

It's funny how when you are utterly refuted on a topic you just jump to another topic to avoid the consequence. You get refuted on an assumption of 'God' in attempt to escape the idealism problem, then jump to the origin of the universe. Your arrogance in ignorance is astounding (all because you started with your conclusion and have been trying to work backwards - leading the evidence where you want it to go instead of following it).

It is interesting too that on both accounts (idealism and the origin of the universe) you attempt the infamous God of the Gaps fallacy (argument from incredulity) as an explanation, like the ancients did with lightening and thunder, (i.e. - trying to explain a mystery with a bigger mystery; where human knowledge ends your speculation turns to a hard-fast position). FAIL. The beginning of the universe cosmology doesn't say anything about "from ex-nihilo", and there are many theories still in the works. Merely sticking your flag post into the assumption you made from the beginning isn't science. It is CREDULITY. When science doesn't know something it admits it. That's what separates science from you (the closed-minded one who is unwilling to admit his ignorance and errors due to his presuppositions). Somehow you think you can subvert the scientific process of discovery (and admission of ignorance when required) all based upon the conclusion you started with. It's sad how willingly ignorant you are of the specific sciences of which we are discussing here, and yet you continue to pontificate in utter arrogance to counter-examples and rebuttal. Is there any closer definition of an asshole?

Well, abiogenesis and macroevolution has not been empirically proven and you have faith in those things.

Also, the problem of evil has been solved thousands of years ago and you still have it as your signature.

I guess we are just accusing each other of the same things in a back and forth match that just won't end.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1295 on: October 27, 2013, 12:25:55 PM »
I have great faith in God.

The problem is that atheists ridicule faith, when ironically, they have more faith than believers! ("Goo-to-you", "particles to people", "molecules to man" theory of evolution)

It's sort of tongue-in-cheek at them. They say faith is stupid, yet they have the most faith of all! Albeit, faith in the wrong things.

And the only reason why creationists say this is because they know it winds people up. They also know it's fundamentally a brazen lie, because accepting the mountain of scientific evidence in support of evolutionary Theory doesn't require any faith at all.

Of course it requires faith.

has it been empirically proven that species can change into something completely different?
has it been empirically proven how the first life form started? How'd the amoeba crawl out of the mud? How'd it do it?


Faith is believing things when you have no good reason to do so. Reasonable expectations based upon evidence (which can easily be changed with contrary evidence) is not faith. Faith is fixed. It is a position that you hold in spite of the evidence (with a closed-mind, no matter what). Your attempt to switch the definition of faith when it suites your presuppositions is dishonest - again showing that you are a liar and don't care about truth (only defending your initial assumptions).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1296 on: October 27, 2013, 12:27:00 PM »
I asked a variation of this some pages back, but never got an answer...Why exactly is it that a loving, omniscient and omnipotent god who wants nothing more than to see every soul saved would continue to accept a world of his own creation in which the power of these "demons" results in (according to your figures and understanding) some 98% of all people ever to live ending up destined for eternal torment?

For the same reason gun manufacturers still continue to make guns even though they know people will use them to kill. Sure, they could refuse to make guns and nobody would get killed because of it, but people have a choice to use the gun for good or evil.

It's also the same reason some obese people want to sue McDonald's for making them fat.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1297 on: October 27, 2013, 12:29:57 PM »
I have great faith in God.

The problem is that atheists ridicule faith, when ironically, they have more faith than believers! ("Goo-to-you", "particles to people", "molecules to man" theory of evolution)

It's sort of tongue-in-cheek at them. They say faith is stupid, yet they have the most faith of all! Albeit, faith in the wrong things.

And the only reason why creationists say this is because they know it winds people up. They also know it's fundamentally a brazen lie, because accepting the mountain of scientific evidence in support of evolutionary Theory doesn't require any faith at all.

Of course it requires faith.

has it been empirically proven that species can change into something completely different?
has it been empirically proven how the first life form started? How'd the amoeba crawl out of the mud? How'd it do it?


Faith is believing things when you have no good reason to do so. Reasonable expectations based upon evidence (which can easily be changed with contrary evidence) is not faith. Faith is fixed. It is a position that you hold in spite of the evidence (with a closed-mind, no matter what). Your attempt to switch the definition of faith when it suites your presuppositions is dishonest - again showing that you are a liar and don't care about truth (only defending your initial assumptions).

But, there is no evidence that life can start all on its own.
Humans can't even start life and we have intelligence!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1298 on: October 27, 2013, 12:31:22 PM »
And the only reason why creationists say this is because they know it winds people up. They also know it's fundamentally a brazen lie, because accepting the mountain of scientific evidence in support of evolutionary Theory doesn't require any faith at all.

Of course it requires faith.

has it been empirically proven that species can change into something completely different?

What do you mean when you say "change into something completely different"?

Quote
has it been empirically proven how the first life form started? How'd the amoeba crawl out of the mud? How'd it do it?

Not applicable. An amoeba is a eukaryotic life-form. As such, it's pretty complex and certainly not a candidate for "first life form". Further, evolutionary Theory doesn't include the question of how life-forms started. That would be abiogenesis, which is still an area of research. There are some interesting models for how life might have gotten started; the problem is that we don't know which, if any, might be true.

What we certainly don't do is leap to the hasty conclusion "it can't be done in nature; therefore, God".
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 12:33:09 PM by Deus ex Machina »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1299 on: October 27, 2013, 12:36:00 PM »
What do you mean when you say "change into something completely different"?

Dogs changing to cats. Lizards changing to horses. Whales changing to elephants.

You know different species forming. Bible says animals reproduce after their own kind. Evolution has no explanation for how other species form.

Not applicable. An amoeba is a eukaryotic life-form. As such, it's pretty complex and certainly not a candidate for "first life form". Further, evolutionary Theory doesn't include the question of how life-forms started. That would be abiogenesis, which is still an area of research. There are some interesting models for how life might have gotten started; the problem is that we don't know which, if any, might be true.

What we certainly don't do is leap to the hasty conclusion "it can't be done in nature; therefore, God".

So you admit that you do not know how life first started but you know that it wasn't God?

Quite a contradictory position....
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1300 on: October 27, 2013, 12:36:51 PM »

Well, abiogenesis and macroevolution has not been empirically proven and you have faith in those things.

Also, the problem of evil has been solved thousands of years ago and you still have it as your signature.

I guess we are just accusing each other of the same things in a back and forth match that just won't end.

WRONG. The situation is quite worse for you than that - for one b/c you are the one making the extra assumptions (i.e. faith) on these subjects of which you are ignorant (being credulous, unjustified, and unnecessary to them). When you pretend to know things that you don't know, and then accuse others of making your same grievous error, you are being incredibly presumptuous and dishonest. Unlike you (and like good science), I don't pretend to know how life began. However, it is quite clear that you are uneducated about all of these subjects in science (and damn arrogant about it!).

Go back to school. Study the subjects of evolutionary biology, paleontology, and biological anthropology (take a few classes at the JC level at least!), and come back when you know WTF you're talking about, b/c your ignorance is all you are displaying here.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1301 on: October 27, 2013, 12:42:28 PM »
But, there is no evidence that life can start all on its own.
Humans can't even start life and we have intelligence!

Look what you just said: "there is no evidence". Even if that were true (and it's not - as you are confusing evidence with 'absolute proof' which science doesn't deal with), what does good science do when there is no evidence for something? Is it supposed to just grab-on to the supernatural as an explanation for anything not understood, or actually go out and do some investigating?? I'm sorry, your ignorance of science, and the philosophical underpinning upon which that ignorance is based, are pure bullshit.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1302 on: October 27, 2013, 12:43:34 PM »

Well, abiogenesis and macroevolution has not been empirically proven and you have faith in those things.

Also, the problem of evil has been solved thousands of years ago and you still have it as your signature.

I guess we are just accusing each other of the same things in a back and forth match that just won't end.

WRONG. The situation is quite worse for you than that - for one b/c you are the one making the extra assumptions (i.e. faith) on these subjects of which you are ignorant (being credulous, unjustified, and unnecessary to them). When you pretend to know things that you don't know, and then accuse others of making your same grievous error, you are being incredibly presumptuous and dishonest. Unlike you (and like good science), I don't pretend to know how life began. However, it is quite clear that you are uneducated about all of these subjects in science (and damn arrogant about it!).

Go back to school. Study the subjects of evolutionary biology, paleontology, and biological anthropology (take a few classes at the JC level at least!), and come back when you know WTF you're talking about, b/c your ignorance is all you are displaying here.

What makes you think I haven't studied them? It's precisely because I've studied them that I can point out the holes and flaws in the theory.

All fossils show fully formed creatures that were deposited after the flood. No fossil shows a species changing into a completely new species of animal. They have found out of place artifacts such as a hammer in strata dated to be "millions of years" and they assume it shouldn't be there because hammers weren't around millions of years ago. yet, they assume the fossils are millions of years old, unlike the hammer.

The illuminati believes science is the "one true God" and this is why they feed you these falsehoods. Lies told over and over again start to sound like the truth after a while. Illuminati is dedicated to the destruction of the Bible.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1303 on: October 27, 2013, 12:45:09 PM »

Faith in God is fine. You can never have too much faith.

An example of extreme faith would be someone watching a jar of water and saying, "Life is gonna form eventually!" as they stare at the cup of water day and night.

Or someone looking at this awesome beautiful world that was created for us only to say, "No God." Imagine the faith it must take to believe seeds formed on their own. Man can not create a seed from nothing. Heck, man cannot even create a grain of sand on their own and they want us to believe in goo-to-you, particles to people, molecules to man evolution!

Or if somebody stares at a dollar bill and has faith that it will turn into a million dollars.

Those are examples of extreme faith.


Quote
You can never have too much faith.


You have invalidated your own argument.

He's just like the Bible: says one thing, then contradicts it. Then when confronted makes excuses that you don't really understand because you don't have the right goggles on to see.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1304 on: October 27, 2013, 12:46:11 PM »
What do you mean when you say "change into something completely different"?

Dogs changing to cats. Lizards changing to horses. Whales changing to elephants.

You mean, a bunch of stuff that the Theory of Evolution predicts shouldn't happen?

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You know different species forming.

That would be by descent from a common ancestor. Like tigers and snow leopards having a common ancestor (around 3.2mya, according to Wikipedia).

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Bible says animals reproduce after their own kind.

Given that a "kind" in the Bible is somewhat of a crap-shoot, I don't see what relevance that has here.

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Evolution has no explanation for how other species form.

No explanation like, er, common ancestry?

Not applicable. An amoeba is a eukaryotic life-form. As such, it's pretty complex and certainly not a candidate for "first life form". Further, evolutionary Theory doesn't include the question of how life-forms started. That would be abiogenesis, which is still an area of research. There are some interesting models for how life might have gotten started; the problem is that we don't know which, if any, might be true.

What we certainly don't do is leap to the hasty conclusion "it can't be done in nature; therefore, God".

So you admit that you do not know how life first started but you know that it wasn't God?

Where did I make such a claim?

Quote
Quite a contradictory position....

Quite a straw-man argument.
No day in which you learn something is wasted.