Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 24596 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1218 on: October 26, 2013, 11:55:36 AM »
Can't have negative numbers without positive numbers in the same way you can't have good without evil. One becomes pointless without the other.

Actually you can. Here:
Z\N
I think you won't understand this without having studied math, but here's hoping otherwise.

1 is not contingent.

Yes it is. You just didn't study math.

God is 1.

Prove it.

Simple, straightforward, common sense.

Simple, yes, if you ignore the assumptions. Occam's Razor and all that.
Straightforward, not so much.
Common sense, not at all.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1219 on: October 26, 2013, 11:56:02 AM »
What I am asking is whether you would recognise him/ her today.

I am sure some tribulation could be arranged. How much do you want? Earthquakes, nuclear war?

This is no laughing matter. I take this very seriously.

of course, it will be worse for the non-Christians. The saved Christians will be whisked away into the sky to be with Jesus.

I am concerned for the people who will be left behind. That's why I am trying to help them understand what will happen when they get left behind. It won't be pretty. Things are gonna get ugly real quick.

Who said I was joking. You want an earthquake? Ok we are coming up to Halloween.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1220 on: October 26, 2013, 11:57:50 AM »
Who said I was joking. You want an earthquake? Ok we are coming up to Halloween.

I love you, brother/sister.

Father forgive them. They know not what they do.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1221 on: October 26, 2013, 12:00:51 PM »
Can't have negative numbers without positive numbers in the same way you can't have good without evil. One becomes pointless without the other.

Actually you can. Here:
Z\N
I think you won't understand this without having studied math, but here's hoping otherwise.

1 is not contingent.

Yes it is. You just didn't study math.

God is 1.

Prove it.

Simple, straightforward, common sense.

Simple, yes, if you ignore the assumptions. Occam's Razor and all that.
Straightforward, not so much.
Common sense, not at all.

According to big Bang, the universe formed roughly 13.8 billion years ago somehow independently of any senses. (How they know what it was when no senses were around to observe it is beyond me but I digress)

This makes the big bang number 2 because something had to cause it, thus making God number 1.

Something cannot have a beginning with no cause.
That's nonsensical.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1222 on: October 26, 2013, 12:00:59 PM »
Who said I was joking. You want an earthquake? Ok we are coming up to Halloween.

I love you, brother/sister.

Father forgive them. They know not what they do.

You are so serious. Do you see how gullible your belief makes you?


« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 12:13:06 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1223 on: October 26, 2013, 12:16:43 PM »
According to big Bang, the universe formed roughly 13.8 billion years ago somehow independently of any senses.

Completely unrelated to the topic at hand, but I'll bite.

(How they know what it was when no senses were around to observe it is beyond me but I digress)

No clue what you mean by "senses".

This makes the big bang number 2 because something had to cause it, thus making God number 1.

Prove it.

Something cannot have a beginning with no cause.
That's nonsensical.

Then neither can your god. Thanks for playing.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1224 on: October 26, 2013, 12:32:37 PM »
Something cannot have a beginning with no cause.
That's nonsensical.


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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1225 on: October 26, 2013, 12:41:31 PM »
We still haven't figured out if dreams are reality and reality is a dream.

In a dream, you cannot die, as you have no physical body.

Go to your kitchen, grab a knife and stick it in your neck.

Reply if you survive.

I had a dream where I was shot. In my dream it had no effect.

I've died in my dreams. Been shot, drowned, fell out of a plane, been crushed etc., it just turned to another dream afterward.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1226 on: October 26, 2013, 12:49:18 PM »
What I am asking is whether you would recognise him/ her today.

I am sure some tribulation could be arranged. How much do you want? Earthquakes, nuclear war?

This is no laughing matter. I take this very seriously.

of course, it will be worse for the non-Christians. The saved Christians will be whisked away into the sky to be with Jesus.

I am concerned for the people who will be left behind. That's why I am trying to help them understand what will happen when they get left behind. It won't be pretty. Things are gonna get ugly real quick.

If people like you are whisked away then the world will be a better place, not a worse one. Idiot.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1227 on: October 26, 2013, 12:49:23 PM »
Tell me more. If the antichrist is alive, how would you recognise him/ her now? When will the temple open?

The tribulation will start when the Anti-Christ declares himself God.

If you do it and the tribulation doesn't start, then you are not the Anti-Christ.

This all seems like very basic common sense type stuff.
Only a Christian would buy his story,as we see no proof of any gods we would dismiss or ignore him
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1228 on: October 26, 2013, 12:54:11 PM »
What I am asking is whether you would recognise him/ her today.

I am sure some tribulation could be arranged. How much do you want? Earthquakes, nuclear war?

This is no laughing matter. I take this very seriously.

of course, it will be worse for the non-Christians. The saved Christians will be whisked away into the sky to be with Jesus.

I am concerned for the people who will be left behind. That's why I am trying to help them understand what will happen when they get left behind. It won't be pretty. Things are gonna get ugly real quick.
The concept of heaven is here on earth,not with sky-daddy. It was also to happen 2000 years ago
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Boots

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1229 on: October 26, 2013, 01:25:49 PM »
According to big Bang, the universe formed roughly 13.8 billion years ago somehow independently of any senses. (How they know what it was when no senses were around to observe it is beyond me but I digress)

This makes the big bang number 2 because something had to cause it, thus making God number 1.

Something cannot have a beginning with no cause.
That's nonsensical.

Nope.  God is *definitely* number 2.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1230 on: October 26, 2013, 01:26:35 PM »
Even if I was an atheist, I still would not be able to accept macroevolution. It takes way too much faith to believe that. More faith than believing in every religion combined.

So, you are wrong about the reasons I reject it. It is a faith masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is even worse. That hasn't even been empirically proven. Abiogenesis requires HUGE religious faith.


It's funny how they make a big fuss over the value of faith, only to scorn it when it's applied towards something else.


I was not aware that, apparently, there was some sort of "upper limit" to faith.  Exactly how do we measure faith, and make sure we're not doing too much of it?  I'd imagine that's important when you consider god.  You've got to be careful not to put too much faith into god.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1231 on: October 26, 2013, 01:29:18 PM »
I was not aware that, apparently, there was some sort of "upper limit" to faith.  Exactly how do we measure faith, and make sure we're not doing too much of it?  I'd imagine that's important when you consider god.  You've got to be careful not to put too much faith into god.

I got you covered.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1232 on: October 26, 2013, 01:37:06 PM »
I don't know about Foxy Freedom, but I already did. You didn't believe Me, as I expected. It takes a long time before you're ready to accept My existence.

skeptic54768, still waiting for you to reply to this. You have a god here communicating with you. I'm fairly certain Astreja would also communicate with you, if you asked Her.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1233 on: October 26, 2013, 01:43:02 PM »

According to big Bang, the universe formed roughly 13.8 billion years ago somehow independently of any senses. (How they know what it was when no senses were around to observe it is beyond me but I digress)

This is the trouble, isn't it? You have a vast store of ignorance and therefore you believe that just because you can't understand, neither can anyone else.

You need not answer, but "Were you homeschooled?

Quote
This makes the big bang number 2 because something had to cause it, thus making God number 1.

Something cannot have a beginning with no cause.
That's nonsensical.

I know One Above All has commented on this, but I cannot let it pass either: Who made God? "Something cannot have a beginning with no cause."?

Quote
That's nonsensical.

Welcome to atheism!
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1234 on: October 26, 2013, 01:49:39 PM »


Number 0 is nonsensical. it doesn't exist. 0 is not a number. It is nothing.

You can't have negative numbers without a positive number 1.

In number theory, the number 0 is in fact a very important number. It is a necessary number for many ( an infinite number, actually, of) mathematical groups to even exist. If you knew anything about what you are writing, I could explain it to you. Unfortunately you don't understand the subject. I suggest that you don't make yourself look more of an idiot than is necessary. Your religious views are sufficient to show that. When you stray into mathematical, scientific or philosophical subjects you just make a worse impression on the reader, if that is possible.
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Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1235 on: October 26, 2013, 02:02:59 PM »
We should probably disregard the immaterialism talk. if you believe there is an external world, then fine. but, remember it is nothing more than a belief, just like God.

Not quite. "There is an external reality" requires only one axiom. "Reality only exists as a consequence of a mind to perceive it" and "An external reality exists via the mind of God" (thus requiring a whole swathe of other axioms involving the "mind" and "God") is considerably less parsimonious, but gets you no further than it gets any materialist. As far as beliefs go, your axiom-set appears to be far less parsimonious - and thus, far less plausible. (The greater the number of assumptions you need to make in order to arrive at a conclusion, the greater the risk that at least one of them is wrong.)

And one can hardly "disregard the immaterialism talk" if, despite your apparent inability to defend it adequately, you go on making statements as if it were true, and accepted to be so. So long as you persist in doing so, this results in a communication barrier. Unfortunately, it's probably insoluble whilst you're stuck on this topic.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 02:07:44 PM by Deus ex Machina »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1236 on: October 26, 2013, 02:40:37 PM »


Number 0 is nonsensical. it doesn't exist. 0 is not a number. It is nothing.

You can't have negative numbers without a positive number 1.

In number theory, the number 0 is in fact a very important number. It is a necessary number for many ( an infinite number, actually, of) mathematical groups to even exist. If you knew anything about what you are writing, I could explain it to you. Unfortunately you don't understand the subject. I suggest that you don't make yourself look more of an idiot than is necessary. Your religious views are sufficient to show that. When you stray into mathematical, scientific or philosophical subjects you just make a worse impression on the reader, if that is possible.

This skeptic guy reminds me of some of my students. People who know very little about the world, and make blanket incorrect statements about math, science, philosophy, other countries, other historical periods, etc. Sometimes, I don't even know where to begin.[1]I don't want to slap them down or make them feel stupid. But they are saying things that are stupid!
 
The arrogant challenges in skeptic's posts are so much like that. A kind of aggressive, proud ignorance that is becoming, I am afraid, more and more prevalent in the US. There is the fear of complex ideas, the deep distrust of "pointy-headed intellectuals", the dismissal of formal education, the refusal to examine deeply-held assumptions, the unwillingness to investigate what is not already known. This inability to apply the scientific method or to systematically question received wisdom is easily exploited by corrupt religious leaders, greedy politicians, big corporations and a news media that is just another money-making business.  We end up with a population of people who are incredibly ignorant, and at times unwilling to learn.

That is why the US is the only industrialized country in the world where a large percentage of people reject evolution (while benefiting from it every day), believe climate change is a hoax (while causing more of it per capita than anyone else), think vaccinations cause more disease than they cure (while somehow not getting any of the illnesses previous generations died from), and suspect science is just made up arbitrarily by scientists (for what purpose is not clear).

Democracy and capitalism depend on people being educated so they can make well-informed choices--based on real knowledge, not religious faith, "common sense" or gut feelings. No wonder, with people increasingly thinking like skeptic, that both democracy and capitalism are systems in crisis.  :(
 1. One unforgettable example: a white, economically privileged student asked "Why did the Five Civilized Tribes of native Americans walk to Oklahoma when they were forced off their land? If they were so civilized, why didn't they, like, fly?" As in, go online, buy an e-ticket and board a plane from Miami to Oklahoma......in 1838. 
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1237 on: October 26, 2013, 02:45:37 PM »
it doesn't make sense to say "God is undefined but I don't believe in God." You must have a definition or else you guys have no clue what you are disbelieving in.

Would it make sense to say "Fligglesnorf is undefined but I don't believe in Fligglesnorf?"  I think it's exactly the contrary.  If Fligglesnorf is undefined, then logically, it isn't even possible to believe in Fligglesnorf.  How can you believe in something if you don't even know what it is?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1238 on: October 26, 2013, 03:03:37 PM »
it doesn't make sense to say "God is undefined but I don't believe in God." You must have a definition or else you guys have no clue what you are disbelieving in.

Would it make sense to say "Fligglesnorf is undefined but I don't believe in Fligglesnorf?"  I think it's exactly the contrary.  If Fligglesnorf is undefined, then logically, it isn't even possible to believe in Fligglesnorf.  How can you believe in something if you don't even know what it is?

Then when people do define what they mean by god--all powerful, all knowing, no beginning or end, all loving, immaterial, with supernatural powers, yet undetectable by any scientific instrument, etc.-- it gets even less possible to believe it exists.
It is invisible, yet everywhere.
It chooses to reveal itself to you, but only if you already believe in it first.
It has infinite powers, but can't make you believe in it. Until it reveals itself to you. After you have already decided to believe.
It made up of three (or more) distinct individuals,  but is really one inseparable thing.
It knows everything but makes mistakes.
It knows everything but does not know the future.
It is all good and nothing but good, but created/allows/does evil. 
It created everything out of nothing.  Although something cannot come from nothing.
It created the physical laws, but does not have to follow them.
It created the physical laws and does have to follow them.
It created the unbreakable rules of morality-- but does not have to follow the unbreakable rules of morality.
It watches believers all the time, but nobody acts as if it is watching all the time.

So many contradictions that it could not exist--yet somehow we are supposed to accept that it does? Whatever for? And that is just one god as described by one group. Add in all the other gods that people have ever believed in and you get an even bigger mess. What the hell are we atheists supposed to think? Hmmm, maybe one group of contradictory silly unfounded ideas is right. Or maybe all of them are wrong.....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1239 on: October 26, 2013, 08:29:17 PM »
Yes, but Physical reality is necessary like the number 1. Number 1 is not contingent. Starting from number 2, it is contingent on number 1.

Physical reality is the non-contingent essence that cannot not exist.

We have been over this already.

The same reasoning applies to how I've just edited your post (in bold).  Sentience is not a special case, and in fact requires more assumptions than non-sentience.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1240 on: October 26, 2013, 08:51:18 PM »
I know One Above All has commented on this, but I cannot let it pass either: Who made God? "Something cannot have a beginning with no cause."?

Is that an intentional misunderstanding or a genuine misunderstanding? I will assume it's the latter....

Anyway, God had no beginning. Therefore, God needs no cause.
If something has a beginning, it needs a cause. According to the dogmatic Big bang model, the universe BEGAN 13.8 billion years ago. The universe had a beginning so the universe needed a cause.

The only logical option is the non-contingent being that cannot not exist: God.

Is this very difficult for some people to grasp? I would advise reading this post a few times to let it sink in if it is troubling for you.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1241 on: October 26, 2013, 08:53:35 PM »
So how long was God waiting before creating, according to you?

Must have been an infinite amount of time.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1242 on: October 26, 2013, 08:56:41 PM »
So how long was God waiting before creating, according to you?

Must have been an infinite amount of time.

No idea. But, if the universe is infinitely old, we would have run out of usable energy by now. We could not exist.

That pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems, such as the universe. The universe doesn't get energy from anywhere else.

If the universe began, it needed a cause.
If the universe is infinitely old, we could not exist so this option is OUT!

Quite a pickle.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1243 on: October 26, 2013, 09:00:54 PM »
God is 1.

Prove it.

Seriously? That's like asking me to prove that a bachelor is not married.

It's the very definition of the word for a bachelor to be not married!

Is this board really the cream of the atheistic crop? I was told it was by a friend before I signed up.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1244 on: October 26, 2013, 09:14:51 PM »
God is 1.

Prove it.

Seriously? That's like asking me to prove that a bachelor is not married.

It's the very definition of the word for a bachelor to be not married!

Is this board really the cream of the atheistic crop? I was told it was by a friend before I signed up.

You are only making yourself look silly by pretending to be intelligent.

At my school we had a joke "god only chooses thick kids".
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 09:42:55 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1245 on: October 26, 2013, 09:18:15 PM »
No idea.

Well, think about it for a second.  If God has been around for eternity, then he would have had to wait an eternal amount of time to create the Earth.  How would he have even gotten to this point, if he had to wait an eternal amount of time?

If the universe began, it needed a cause.
If the universe is infinitely old, we could not exist so this option is OUT!

Quite a pickle.

Not really.  As far as anyone can tell, the observable universe began 13.7 billion years ago.  It is not infinitely old.

Prove it.

Seriously? That's like asking me to prove that a bachelor is not married.

It's the very definition of the word for a bachelor to be not married!

So the nature of God is a matter of human decree, like the definition of words.  I agree.

Or did you not mean to say what you actually said?

Is this board really the cream of the atheistic crop? I was told it was by a friend before I signed up.

It's only as good as your own ability to understand.  So for you, probably not so good.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1246 on: October 26, 2013, 09:39:37 PM »
Well, think about it for a second.  If God has been around for eternity, then he would have had to wait an eternal amount of time to create the Earth.  How would he have even gotten to this point, if he had to wait an eternal amount of time?

God is not bound by the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Not really.  As far as anyone can tell, the observable universe began 13.7 billion years ago.  It is not infinitely old.

OK great!

Cause of the universe is:

A. God.
B. God.
C. God.
D. Nothing. :o
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)