Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 16331 times)

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1189 on: October 25, 2013, 11:26:49 PM »
You can empirically prove that dogs dream?

Apparently it's already been done.

Cats too.  I've watched My own cats chasing small animals in their sleep, slow-motion stalking and lunging and occasionally talking in their sleep.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1190 on: October 25, 2013, 11:58:29 PM »
You can empirically prove that dogs dream?

Apparently it's already been done.

Cats too.  I've watched My own cats chasing small animals in their sleep, slow-motion stalking and lunging and occasionally talking in their sleep.

My  old cat Zxander (who's now living with my sister) meows in his sleep. Humans sometimes talk in their sleep, why not cats?

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1191 on: October 26, 2013, 12:34:57 AM »
The belief that other people have minds and see the same world you see. It's a dogmatic assumption.

It's not.  It is based on observation.  If I thought you'd not be a total jackass about it, I'd explain.  But you have shown no willingness to actually have a conversation.


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Thus, solipsism remains only logical position for the atheist.

No. This has been explained to you already.  You are obviously doing this to be obnoxious and get a rise out of people. That's trolling.  jesus hates trolls.  And so do I.  So if you want to make this claim again, you need to find a new argument.

Solipsism is a waste of time for everyone, regardless of your inclinations about theism.



All fossils show fully formed fully functioning creatures.

Of course they do. Those creatures that are neither fully formed nor fully functional get eaten quickly or just die and then get eaten. wft did you expect, half a bird?



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Not even we creationists deny microevolutipn.
We just reject macroevolution because it's faith based belief masquerading as science.

No.  You reject it for several reasons, none of them being that.  You may reject it because you dislike the conclusion.  Or you may reject it because this was what you were taught by your family and community.  Or you may reject it simply because you are stupid.  Or you may reject it because it contradicts your stupid religious beliefs.  There are more.

But you do not reject it because it is faith masquerading as science.  You just say that as your post hoc justification, without actually understanding that what you are saying is untrue.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1192 on: October 26, 2013, 03:39:58 AM »
We still haven't figured out if dreams are reality and reality is a dream.

In a dream, you cannot die, as you have no physical body.

Go to your kitchen, grab a knife and stick it in your neck.

Reply if you survive.
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Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1193 on: October 26, 2013, 05:04:48 AM »
The mind is the immaterial sentience that separates us from the animals. God and humans have this.

That's quite a different definition to the two definitions you gave me earlier. Before, you had said that the mind is:

1. The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.
2. The collective conscious and unconscious processes in a sentient organism that direct and influence mental and physical behavior.

(1) is restricted to humans, contingent upon a physical brain, and therefore inconsistent with your later definition.
(2) is restricted to sentient organisms (therefore, it doesn't explicitly separate us from animals), and does not cover entities that aren't organisms (which explicitly excludes God).

Later, you state that

Hallucinations prove the point that we see things only in minds.

Given your assorted definitions of "mind" that contradict one another, this statement will not compile. From a materialist perspective, all hallucinations establish is that there are things the brain experiences where in a certain state it interprets certain electrical signals as auditory, visual and other stimuli, and attempts to respond accordingly - however, that does not establish that those signals are representative of an objective reality.

This is where inductive reasoning comes in. The ability to continually cross-check against past experiences (which, incidentally, also provides a sanity-check against faulty memory) and sanity-check one's environment for consistency is one of the things that helps to determine reality from fantasy. In reality, I know that if I drop a heavy object on my foot, it hurts. If I place a cold cup of coffee in a microwave oven for a minute, I'll get a hot (if not ideal) cup of coffee. If I drop a rubber ball on the tiled floor, it will bounce. In reality, I do not possess the power to fly around the room by telekenesis no matter how hard I might "think" it.

These are the things that help to define that objective reality. It's essentially consistent in that it works according to a set of principles that are independent of any individual's perception of how it works. If you drop a ball 50 times, and it bounces, you do not expect that on the 51st occasion that when you drop it it will simply fall to the floor with a thud - or disappear through the floor, turn into a swarm of butterflies, spontaneously combust, or spontaneously collapse upon itself to create a micro-black hole that takes you with it.

Using inductive reasoning we are able to make generalisations based upon those observations, but by that same token, our knowledge is thereby provisional and subject to error-correction in the light of new data, should such arise.

And methodological naturalism - science - takes it to the next level, in determining by observation, experimentation, calculation, inference and most especially sanity-checking with other observations. And it has proven to be extremely powerful: the only reason you're able to share your idealistic notions with me, who am half a world away, is because of the science that has enabled us to communicate. Not to mention the science-based medicine that, in all probability, has enabled at least one of us to be born and live to an age where we'd be able to communicate with one another at all.

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Everything else that we see is part of God's mind, that's why everyone else can see the same things.

java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError. Your "mind" class doesn't compile, "God" remains undefined, so all you have is an ill-defined and confused assertion as a purported explanation for objective experiences.

Quote
Hallucinations are a problem for materialism because someone is seeing something and it's very real to them. How can you objectively say their hallucination is wrong? It's all based on their own perception. Your own perception didn't see the same thing they saw, so reality would be subjective.

The statement "Your own perception didn't see the same thing they saw, so reality would be subjective" is an idealistic one. However, this is incompatible with the materialistic axiom that an objective reality exists: as such, within the context of materialism, it is a nonsensical statement. Rather than playing by materialism's rules, you're trying to insert an idealistic rule into a materialistic framework. This is like applying the rules of golf to soccer; it does not work, and is not valid.

If you want to poke holes in materialism, you have to address it on its own terms by showing a logical contradiction or a tension between conclusions that arise from it. "Reality is subjective" is not a conclusion that arises from it, and given that it conflicts with the axiom that an objective reality exists, can be readily and summarily rejected.

Further, perception is not the end of the story anyway. Quite apart from the fact that we see, hear and feel only that which our senses are capable of picking up - for instance, sound waves only up to a few kHz, electromagnetic waves only within certain bands - what we do perceive goes through a host of filters in order that our brains can interpret it. The consequence of this is that what we experience is much, much less than the full gamut of data that reality has to offer.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 05:27:54 AM by Deus ex Machina »
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1194 on: October 26, 2013, 10:04:04 AM »
You said a generation was 70-75 years which means the time limit will have passed in ten years. Are you telling me now that your statement was just wishful thinking OR is it that you would never admit to being wrong?

What is the maximum number of years for a generation? Feel free to protect your delusions with a higher number of years.

We'll find out pretty soon when the Anti-Christ sets himself up in the temple and declares himself to be God.

Do you notice how you avoided the question to protect your fantasies?

I was wondering, if you think there is only a few years left, you must think that the antichrist is alive now. It sounds like a good career move, how can I apply for the job? Should I just turn up at the temple when it opens or is there something I must do first?
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1195 on: October 26, 2013, 10:11:07 AM »
We still haven't figured out if dreams are reality and reality is a dream.

In a dream, you cannot die, as you have no physical body.

Go to your kitchen, grab a knife and stick it in your neck.

Reply if you survive.

I had a dream where I was shot. In my dream it had no effect.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1196 on: October 26, 2013, 10:18:29 AM »
I had a dream where I was shot. In my dream it had no effect.

Therefore, in theory he should reply with:
"I stuck the knife in my neck, nothing happened as life is a dream..."

I might add that i had a dream where i was killed by a dog by having my neck torn out, i awoke with the WORST pain i have ever felt ever in my neck...
It was bloody awful...
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1197 on: October 26, 2013, 10:53:14 AM »
We should probably disregard the immaterialism talk. if you believe there is an external world, then fine. but, remember it is nothing more than a belief, just like God.


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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1198 on: October 26, 2013, 11:05:02 AM »
Your "mind" class doesn't compile, "God" remains undefined, so all you have is an ill-defined and confused assertion as a purported explanation for objective experiences.

I am curious about how you say that God remains undefined. If God is undefined, how do atheists know they don't believe in God?

What God are you guys disbelieving in?

This has been a humdinger of a question for a while that I asked plenty of atheists who have been stumped.

it doesn't make sense to say "God is undefined but I don't believe in God." You must have a definition or else you guys have no clue what you are disbelieving in.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1199 on: October 26, 2013, 11:11:52 AM »
We should probably disregard the immaterialism talk. if you believe there is an external world, then fine. but, remember it is nothing more than a belief, just like God.

Belief in an external world is the base-line assumption we all must make.  You make an additional one in thinking that the external world contains, or is, a god.  That's a whole lot of ugly baggage you're attaching to the universe.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1200 on: October 26, 2013, 11:16:53 AM »
We should probably disregard the immaterialism talk. if you believe there is an external world, then fine. but, remember it is nothing more than a belief, just like God.

Belief in an external world is the base-line assumption we all must make.  You make an additional one in thinking that the external world contains, or is, a god.  That's a whole lot of ugly baggage you're attaching to the universe.

No. Berkeley's immaterialism is based on pure empiricism.

He accounts for everything without making the unneeded assumption of an external world independent of our senses.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1201 on: October 26, 2013, 11:18:17 AM »
Actually he does make that assumption.  It's called the "mind of God".

You ought to read what he actually proposed sometime.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1202 on: October 26, 2013, 11:20:36 AM »
We still haven't figured out if dreams are reality and reality is a dream.

In a dream, you cannot die, as you have no physical body.

Go to your kitchen, grab a knife and stick it in your neck.

Reply if you survive.

In this world, the body dies but not the soul. The soul moves on.

Sounds like a dream to me.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1203 on: October 26, 2013, 11:21:27 AM »
In a dream, the body survives such things.

Very different.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1204 on: October 26, 2013, 11:22:09 AM »
Actually he does make that assumption.  It's called the "mind of God".

You ought to read what he actually proposed sometime.

yeah, an external world only makes sense when you have the mind of God account for it.

Materialism can't account for an external world independent of our senses because it can't be proven empirically. Everything we know comes form the senses. So, it's an assumption to say that everything we experience with our senses, is independent of our senses.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1205 on: October 26, 2013, 11:24:55 AM »
yeah, an external world only makes sense when you have the mind of God account for it.

An external world needs nothing to account for it.  Otherwise, you'd have to ask what accounts for the mind of God as well, wouldn't you?

Materialism can't account for an external world independent of our senses because it can't be proven empirically. Everything we know comes form the senses. So, it's an assumption to say that everything we experience with our senses, is independent of our senses.

That is an assumption you and Berkeley must make as well.  In your worldview, the mind of God is a reality independent of your senses.  Agreed?  Disagreed?
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1206 on: October 26, 2013, 11:32:22 AM »
yeah, an external world only makes sense when you have the mind of God account for it.

An external world needs nothing to account for it.  Otherwise, you'd have to ask what accounts for the mind of God as well, wouldn't you?

Materialism can't account for an external world independent of our senses because it can't be proven empirically. Everything we know comes form the senses. So, it's an assumption to say that everything we experience with our senses, is independent of our senses.

That is an assumption you and Berkeley must make as well.  In your worldview, the mind of God is a reality independent of your senses.  Agreed?  Disagreed?

Yes, but God is necessary like the number 1. Number 1 is not contingent. Starting from number 2, it is contingent on number 1.

God is the non-contingent being that cannot not exist.

We have been over this already.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1207 on: October 26, 2013, 11:33:50 AM »
Do you notice how you avoided the question to protect your fantasies?

I was wondering, if you think there is only a few years left, you must think that the antichrist is alive now. It sounds like a good career move, how can I apply for the job? Should I just turn up at the temple when it opens or is there something I must do first?

if you want to go to the temple and declare yourself God, be my guest.

What is stopping you?

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1208 on: October 26, 2013, 11:34:51 AM »
Yes, but God is necessary like the number 1. Number 1 is not contingent. Starting from number 2, it is contingent on number 1.

Yeah, but the number 1 is contingent on the number 0. And the number 0 is contingent on the number -1. And the number -1 (...)
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1209 on: October 26, 2013, 11:36:03 AM »
if you want to go to the temple and declare yourself God, be my guest.

What is stopping you?

I don't know about Foxy Freedom, but I already did. You didn't believe Me, as I expected. It takes a long time before you're ready to accept My existence.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1210 on: October 26, 2013, 11:37:14 AM »
Do you notice how you avoided the question to protect your fantasies?

I was wondering, if you think there is only a few years left, you must think that the antichrist is alive now. It sounds like a good career move, how can I apply for the job? Should I just turn up at the temple when it opens or is there something I must do first?

if you want to go to the temple and declare yourself God, be my guest.

What is stopping you?

Tell me more. If the antichrist is alive, how would you recognise him/ her now? When will the temple open?
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1211 on: October 26, 2013, 11:37:51 AM »
Yes, but God is necessary like the number 1. Number 1 is not contingent. Starting from number 2, it is contingent on number 1.

Yeah, but the number 1 is contingent on the number 0. And the number 0 is contingent on the number -1. And the number -1 (...)

Number 0 is nonsensical. it doesn't exist. 0 is not a number. It is nothing.

You can't have negative numbers without a positive number 1.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1212 on: October 26, 2013, 11:39:00 AM »
Tell me more. If the antichrist is alive, how would you recognise him/ her now? When will the temple open?

The tribulation will start when the Anti-Christ declares himself God.

If you do it and the tribulation doesn't start, then you are not the Anti-Christ.

This all seems like very basic common sense type stuff.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1213 on: October 26, 2013, 11:45:19 AM »
No.  You reject it for several reasons, none of them being that.  You may reject it because you dislike the conclusion.  Or you may reject it because this was what you were taught by your family and community.  Or you may reject it simply because you are stupid.  Or you may reject it because it contradicts your stupid religious beliefs.  There are more.

But you do not reject it because it is faith masquerading as science.  You just say that as your post hoc justification, without actually understanding that what you are saying is untrue.

Even if I was an atheist, I still would not be able to accept macroevolution. It takes way too much faith to believe that. More faith than believing in every religion combined.

So, you are wrong about the reasons I reject it. It is a faith masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is even worse. That hasn't even been empirically proven. Abiogenesis requires HUGE religious faith.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1214 on: October 26, 2013, 11:45:35 AM »
Number 0 is nonsensical. it doesn't exist.

Really? What do you call this - 0?

0 is not a number. It is nothing.

0 is not a natural number, but it is a whole number. Ever studied math? My guess is "no".

You can't have negative numbers without a positive number 1.

Real numbers go from -infinity to +infinity.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1215 on: October 26, 2013, 11:49:29 AM »
Number 0 is nonsensical. it doesn't exist.

Really? What do you call this - 0?

0 is not a number. It is nothing.

0 is not a natural number, but it is a whole number. Ever studied math? My guess is "no".

You can't have negative numbers without a positive number 1.

Real numbers go from -infinity to +infinity.

Can't have negative numbers without positive numbers in the same way you can't have good without evil. One becomes pointless without the other.

1 is not contingent. God is 1.

Simple, straightforward, common sense.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1216 on: October 26, 2013, 11:50:51 AM »
Tell me more. If the antichrist is alive, how would you recognise him/ her now? When will the temple open?

The tribulation will start when the Anti-Christ declares himself God.

If you do it and the tribulation doesn't start, then you are not the Anti-Christ.

This all seems like very basic common sense type stuff.

What I am asking is whether you would recognise him/ her today.

I am sure some tribulation could be arranged. How much do you want? Earthquakes, nuclear war?
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1217 on: October 26, 2013, 11:52:56 AM »
What I am asking is whether you would recognise him/ her today.

I am sure some tribulation could be arranged. How much do you want? Earthquakes, nuclear war?

This is no laughing matter. I take this very seriously.

of course, it will be worse for the non-Christians. The saved Christians will be whisked away into the sky to be with Jesus.

I am concerned for the people who will be left behind. That's why I am trying to help them understand what will happen when they get left behind. It won't be pretty. Things are gonna get ugly real quick.