Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 37241 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1160 on: October 25, 2013, 08:47:09 PM »

So you are saying that the mind is nothing but chemicals, so God can't have a mind because God is not made of chemicals?

When you dream, where is the world you are in?
How can you talk and hear in a dream? You're certainly not using your 5 senses in a dream....

Another blow to materialism.

Your ignorance is not any indication of the noteworthiness of my position. And deliberately misrepresenting my position (or trying to arbitrarily reduce it to something I did not say or mean) only shows how dishonest you are. I never said "nothing but" and I certainly didn't say anything about your idea regarding a "God" thing. That burden of proof is on you and the statement "God cannot not exist" is equally arbitrary and assumptive. I could just as easily say, "The global universe cannot not exist." Neither statement proves anything (b/c making sh*t up proves nothing).

Now the question you raised about dreaming is a scientific one. Instead of just making a grand ASSUMPTION about dreams, why don't you actually go out and do some homework on it? Are you afraid of what you will find? Dreams do not have to be some 'spooky' mystical thing (just like hallucinations don't have to be either). Just like there are explanations for why thunder and lightening storms happen, there are explanations for what occurs in the brain during a dream and why things are happening the way they are (no positing of some magical sky dictator needed). You should really study your history b/c if you did you would realize you are continually attempting to use the God of the Gaps fallacy.

Another blow to your ignorance.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1161 on: October 25, 2013, 08:48:33 PM »
What belief do I have that lacks proof?....
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1162 on: October 25, 2013, 08:50:01 PM »

So you are saying that the mind is nothing but chemicals, so God can't have a mind because God is not made of chemicals?

When you dream, where is the world you are in?
How can you talk and hear in a dream? You're certainly not using your 5 senses in a dream....

Another blow to materialism.

Your ignorance is not any indication of the noteworthiness of my position. And deliberately misrepresenting my position (or trying to arbitrarily reduce it to something I did not say or mean) only shows how dishonest you are. I never said "nothing but" and I certainly didn't say anything about your idea regarding a "God" thing. That burden of proof is on you and the statement "God cannot not exist" is equally arbitrary and assumptive. I could just as easily say, "The global universe cannot not exist." Neither statement proves anything (b/c making sh*t up proves nothing).

Now the question you raised about dreaming is a scientific one. Instead of just making a grand ASSUMPTION about dreams, why don't you actually go out and do some homework on it? Are you afraid of what you will find? Dreams do not have to be some 'spooky' mystical thing (just like hallucinations don't have to be either). Just like there are explanations for why thunder and lightening storms happen, there are explanations for what occurs in the brain during a dream and why things are happening the way they are (no positing of some magical sky dictator needed). You should really study your history b/c if you did you would realize you are continually attempting to use the God of the Gaps fallacy.

Another blow to your ignorance.

You accuse us of god of the gaps, but you guys use nature of the gaps.

It's a wash, I suppose.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1163 on: October 25, 2013, 08:52:14 PM »
What belief do I have that lacks proof?....

The belief that other people have minds and see the same world you see. It's a dogmatic assumption.
Thus, solipsism remains only logical position for the atheist.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1164 on: October 25, 2013, 08:53:04 PM »
Just because we lack the ability to obtain knowledge needed to prove something,is not nature of the gaps as you state.

 God requires a lot more gap jumping to be real,nature,if you look beyond the pages of your Bible,you may learn something about it(nature)
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1165 on: October 25, 2013, 08:54:40 PM »

So you are saying that the mind is nothing but chemicals, so God can't have a mind because God is not made of chemicals?

When you dream, where is the world you are in?
How can you talk and hear in a dream? You're certainly not using your 5 senses in a dream....

Another blow to materialism.

Your ignorance is not any indication of the noteworthiness of my position. And deliberately misrepresenting my position (or trying to arbitrarily reduce it to something I did not say or mean) only shows how dishonest you are. I never said "nothing but" and I certainly didn't say anything about your idea regarding a "God" thing. That burden of proof is on you and the statement "God cannot not exist" is equally arbitrary and assumptive. I could just as easily say, "The global universe cannot not exist." Neither statement proves anything (b/c making sh*t up proves nothing).

Now the question you raised about dreaming is a scientific one. Instead of just making a grand ASSUMPTION about dreams, why don't you actually go out and do some homework on it? Are you afraid of what you will find? Dreams do not have to be some 'spooky' mystical thing (just like hallucinations don't have to be either). Just like there are explanations for why thunder and lightening storms happen, there are explanations for what occurs in the brain during a dream and why things are happening the way they are (no positing of some magical sky dictator needed). You should really study your history b/c if you did you would realize you are continually attempting to use the God of the Gaps fallacy.

Another blow to your ignorance.

You accuse us of god of the gaps, but you guys use nature of the gaps.

It's a wash, I suppose.

So, I just refuted your previous assertion and all you're going to come back with is a snotty one-liner about "nature of the gaps". WTF are you talking about? I don't think you realize that by making that accusation you just refuted your own position as irrational. If it is (as you say) "a wash" then your position is also falsified and you should abandon it and admit agnosticism. 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1166 on: October 25, 2013, 08:55:00 PM »
Just because we lack the ability to obtain knowledge needed to prove something,is not nature of the gaps as you state.

 God requires a lot more gap jumping to be real,nature,if you look beyond the pages of your Bible,you may learn something about it(nature)

It's begging the question.

it's just as bad as the, "It's here, so it must have evolved" argument.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1167 on: October 25, 2013, 08:55:54 PM »
What belief do I have that lacks proof?....

The belief that other people have minds and see the same world you see. It's a dogmatic assumption.
Thus, solipsism remains only logical position for the atheist.
I have no aversion to what your mind may see or perceive,or that it exists,just that it lacks education.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1168 on: October 25, 2013, 08:57:18 PM »
Just because we lack the ability to obtain knowledge needed to prove something,is not nature of the gaps as you state.

 God requires a lot more gap jumping to be real,nature,if you look beyond the pages of your Bible,you may learn something about it(nature)

It's begging the question.

it's just as bad as the, "It's here, so it must have evolved" argument.

And once again you demonstrate a mountain of irrationality. This is called a Strawman Fallacy. Nowhere does evolutionary biology claim what you say it claims. You are deliberately misrepresenting the position (and are therefore illogical and invalid). Again, you are ignorant. Plain and simple.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1169 on: October 25, 2013, 08:57:33 PM »

So you are saying that the mind is nothing but chemicals, so God can't have a mind because God is not made of chemicals?

When you dream, where is the world you are in?
How can you talk and hear in a dream? You're certainly not using your 5 senses in a dream....

Another blow to materialism.

Your ignorance is not any indication of the noteworthiness of my position. And deliberately misrepresenting my position (or trying to arbitrarily reduce it to something I did not say or mean) only shows how dishonest you are. I never said "nothing but" and I certainly didn't say anything about your idea regarding a "God" thing. That burden of proof is on you and the statement "God cannot not exist" is equally arbitrary and assumptive. I could just as easily say, "The global universe cannot not exist." Neither statement proves anything (b/c making sh*t up proves nothing).

Now the question you raised about dreaming is a scientific one. Instead of just making a grand ASSUMPTION about dreams, why don't you actually go out and do some homework on it? Are you afraid of what you will find? Dreams do not have to be some 'spooky' mystical thing (just like hallucinations don't have to be either). Just like there are explanations for why thunder and lightening storms happen, there are explanations for what occurs in the brain during a dream and why things are happening the way they are (no positing of some magical sky dictator needed). You should really study your history b/c if you did you would realize you are continually attempting to use the God of the Gaps fallacy.

Another blow to your ignorance.

You accuse us of god of the gaps, but you guys use nature of the gaps.

It's a wash, I suppose.

So, I just refuted your previous assertion and all you're going to come back with is a snotty one-liner about "nature of the gaps". WTF are you talking about? I don't think you realize that by making that accusation you just refuted your own position as irrational. If it is (as you say) "a wash" then your position is also falsified and you should abandon it and admit agnosticism.

But, you didn't refute it.

We still haven't figured out if dreams are reality and reality is a dream.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1170 on: October 25, 2013, 08:58:08 PM »
The mind is the immaterial sentience that separates us from the animals. God and humans have this.

The mind is not immaterial. What you're calling the mind is billions of neurons firing off electrical and chemical signals, each connected to the next through synapses. The mind is very much biological, not some ethereal concept like a soul.

So neurons and chemicals can think?

Is this a serious question?

Edit: ^ that isn't a rhetorical question. If you're being sincere I will, believe it or not, take the time to explain how the human brain works.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:00:21 PM by Zankuu »
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1171 on: October 25, 2013, 08:58:15 PM »
Just because we lack the ability to obtain knowledge needed to prove something,is not nature of the gaps as you state.

 God requires a lot more gap jumping to be real,nature,if you look beyond the pages of your Bible,you may learn something about it(nature)

It's begging the question.

it's just as bad as the, "It's here, so it must have evolved" argument.
A record exists to explain how  things came to evolve,survive and thrive as conditions change,look for it
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1172 on: October 25, 2013, 08:59:11 PM »

But, you didn't refute it.

We still haven't figured out if dreams are reality and reality is a dream.

Haha, that word "we" includes you there tough guy. Again, we're in the same boat either way. So making an arbitrary assertion trying to pretend you are better off doesn't prove that you are.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1173 on: October 25, 2013, 09:00:20 PM »
What belief do I have that lacks proof?....

The belief that other people have minds and see the same world you see. It's a dogmatic assumption.
Thus, solipsism remains only logical position for the atheist.
I have no aversion to what your mind may see or perceive,or that it exists,just that it lacks education.

I see that some of you guys have not heard these philosophical ideas before. Solipsism is not my idea. No one has proven other minds exist. You can only prove your own mind exists. It's an assumption that other minds exist. Nothing more, nothing else.

Ignorance can be cured though. That's the good thing. Just gotta study philosophy.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1174 on: October 25, 2013, 09:02:24 PM »
Just because we lack the ability to obtain knowledge needed to prove something,is not nature of the gaps as you state.

 God requires a lot more gap jumping to be real,nature,if you look beyond the pages of your Bible,you may learn something about it(nature)

It's begging the question.

it's just as bad as the, "It's here, so it must have evolved" argument.
A record exists to explain how  things came to evolve,survive and thrive as conditions change,look for it

No. The record shows fully formed creatures, not gradual changes that Darwinians want us to believe.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1175 on: October 25, 2013, 09:03:26 PM »

I see that some of you guys have not heard these philosophical ideas before. Solipsism is not my idea. No one has proven other minds exist. You can only prove your own mind exists. It's an assumption that other minds exist. Nothing more, nothing else.

Ignorance can be cured though. That's the good thing. Just gotta study philosophy.


Merely assuming your Epistemology or Metaphysics is the correct one doesn't make you right. Read your own statement to yourself in the mirror. "Ignorance can be cured..." Yes, it can. You can start by discontinuing the assumption of your position and start getting honest when you've been rebutted. Let's start with those definitions we've asked for.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1176 on: October 25, 2013, 09:06:44 PM »

No. The record shows fully formed creatures, not gradual changes that Darwinians want us to believe.

More ignorance. You clearly have no idea WTF you're talking about and haven't studied the science. Open a science book and stop acting like you know things you don't know!


http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1177 on: October 25, 2013, 09:07:02 PM »

But, you didn't refute it.

We still haven't figured out if dreams are reality and reality is a dream.

Haha, that word "we" includes you there tough guy. Again, we're in the same boat either way. So making an arbitrary assertion trying to pretend you are better off doesn't prove that you are.

That is why it can not be an objective fact that God does not exist. Both positions on God are nothing more than beliefs.

Keep in mind that no senses are used in our dreams and we can see, talk, hear in our dreams. This is how we know that God must account for the objective reality, for objective reality can not exist in atheism. God can see, talk, and hear without needing any senses, the same way we do in a dream.

This is why Ayn Rand's objectivism is dying. Rand just assumed that an external world can exist independently of our senses when no one has ever empirically proven it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1178 on: October 25, 2013, 09:09:58 PM »

No. The record shows fully formed creatures, not gradual changes that Darwinians want us to believe.

More ignorance. You clearly have no idea WTF you're talking about and haven't studied the science. Open a science book and stop acting like you know things you don't know!


http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

Drawings in books are not evidence though.
All fossils show fully formed fully functioning creatures. if they had the evidence they wouldn't have to draw pictures and make diagrams. They would just show us every fossil in our faces instead of beating around the bush.

Not even we creationists deny microevolutipn.
We just reject macroevolution because it's faith based belief masquerading as science.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1179 on: October 25, 2013, 09:15:14 PM »

That is why it can not be an objective fact that God does not exist. Both positions on God are nothing more than beliefs.

Keep in mind that no senses are used in our dreams and we can see, talk, hear in our dreams. This is how we know that God must account for the objective reality, for objective reality can not exist in atheism. God can see, talk, and hear without needing any senses, the same way we do in a dream.

This is why Ayn Rand's objectivism is dying. Rand just assumed that an external world can exist independently of our senses when no one has ever empirically proven it.

So many fallacies here. It's too bad you can't stop yourself before typing them.

1. Nowhere have I stated "God does not exist" (just like nowhere have I said "Unicorns do not exist"). You keep misrepresenting my position (and others here). Ass...
2. It doesn't matter at all if no "senses" are used in a dream. The brain is a very powerful thing. You are simply ignorant of these things and keep talking from that ignorance.
3. There are different forms of "proof" and you keep acting like we agree with your extremely narrow (and hypocritical) definition of it is the only one that matters. It's not.
4. How many times does it need to be stated? Arbitrary assertions of "God" accounts for this or that, doesn't prove you're right. Saying it is so doesn't make it so. Anyone can claim anything accounts for anything and make sh*t up along the way. It does nothing to prove anything. Again, you haven't done your philosophy homework, have you?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1180 on: October 25, 2013, 09:17:05 PM »

Drawings in books are not evidence though.
All fossils show fully formed fully functioning creatures. if they had the evidence they wouldn't have to draw pictures and make diagrams. They would just show us every fossil in our faces instead of beating around the bush.

Not even we creationists deny microevolutipn.
We just reject macroevolution because it's faith based belief masquerading as science.

If you think that, you clearly don't understand the science. Clearly you don't.

Your ignorance is showing. But this is too off topic. Go here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,41.0.html
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:19:03 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1181 on: October 25, 2013, 09:19:12 PM »

That is why it can not be an objective fact that God does not exist. Both positions on God are nothing more than beliefs.

Keep in mind that no senses are used in our dreams and we can see, talk, hear in our dreams. This is how we know that God must account for the objective reality, for objective reality can not exist in atheism. God can see, talk, and hear without needing any senses, the same way we do in a dream.

This is why Ayn Rand's objectivism is dying. Rand just assumed that an external world can exist independently of our senses when no one has ever empirically proven it.

So many fallacies here. It's too bad you can't stop yourself before typing them.

1. Nowhere have I stated "God does not exist" (just like nowhere have I said "Unicorns do not exist"). You keep misrepresenting my position (and others here). Ass...
2. It doesn't matter at all if no "senses" are used in a dream. The brain is a very powerful thing. You are simply ignorant of these things and keep talking from that ignorance.
3. There are different forms of "proof" and you keep acting like we agree with your extremely narrow (and hypocritical) definition of it is the only one that matters. It's not.
4. How many times does it need to be stated? Arbitrary assertions of "God" accounts for this or that, doesn't prove you're right. Saying it is so doesn't make it so. Anyone can claim anything accounts for anything and make sh*t up along the way. It does nothing to prove anything. Again, you haven't done your philosophy homework, have you?

Please explain how we can see, hear, and talk in our dreams when we are not using these senses. We are asleep. I'm yelling at the top of my lungs in my dream, yet I'm in bed silent with my mouth closed.....

Please provide empirical evidence that an external world can exist independently of our senses. Until you can do this, it truly is an assumption. I'm sorry. That's just how it is. Truth can be mighty ugly sometimes.....
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1182 on: October 25, 2013, 09:29:01 PM »

Please explain how we can see, hear, and talk in our dreams when we are not using these senses. We are asleep. I'm yelling at the top of my lungs in my dream, yet I'm in bed silent with my mouth closed.....

This is called the Argument from Incredulity fallacy. Until you can actually demonstrate that you know what that is, and agree that you will no longer attempt to use it, you will get nowhere. So much for your sound reasoning there Mr philosophy. 

Please provide empirical evidence that an external world can exist independently of our senses. Until you can do this, it truly is an assumption. I'm sorry. That's just how it is. Truth can be mighty ugly sometimes.....

Yes, the truth of your mighty ignorance of science and philosophy can be mighty ugly, can't it? Your question is ill-formed and demonstrates quite clearly that you haven't studied the rebuttals to Berkeley and metaphysical idealism. Have you? If you had you would't be asking this question. Furthermore, and as I've already stated, even if I agreed with the assertion that "all is idea" (and that no material exists) this wouldn't say anything as to the conclusion you are trying to reach (that some "God" is needed). All that is needed then is a resounding "Prove it!" which you haven't done. Again, arbitrary assertions don't get you out of your own idealism. Study more philosophy. It will really help you!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1183 on: October 25, 2013, 09:37:15 PM »
This is called the Argument from Incredulity fallacy. Until you can actually demonstrate that you know what that is, and agree that you will no longer attempt to use it, you will get nowhere. So much for your sound reasoning there Mr philosophy. 


It's not incredulity. It's showing you that we can talk, see, and hear in our dreams despite not using our senses. This shows that God can do all these things without needing senses.

Yes, the truth of your mighty ignorance of science and philosophy can be mighty ugly, can't it? Your question is ill-formed and demonstrates quite clearly that you haven't studied the rebuttals to Berkeley and metaphysical idealism. Have you? If you had you would't be asking this question. Furthermore, and as I've already stated, even if I agreed with the assertion that "all is idea" (and that no material exists) this wouldn't say anything as to the conclusion you are trying to reach (that some "God" is needed). All that is needed then is a resounding "Prove it!" which you haven't done. Again, arbitrary assertions don't get you out of your own idealism. Study more philosophy. It will really help you!

Nobody has ever empirically proven that an external world can exist independently of our senses. Doing so is a futile effort though. You constantly refer back to your senses to explain it, which you're not supposed to do because we are talking about something being independent of our senses.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1184 on: October 25, 2013, 09:46:24 PM »

Yes, he could. Hallucinations prove the point that we see things only in minds. Considering other people don't experience the hallucinations of others, that is how you know the hallucination was subjective. Everything else that we see is part of God's mind, that's why everyone else can see the same things.

Hallucinations are a problem for materialism because someone is seeing something and it's very real to them. How can you objectively say their hallucination is wrong? It's all based on their own perception. Your own perception didn't see the same thing they saw, so reality would be subjective.

Our whole understanding of the world is based on minds. So, it certainly is nonsensical to state that things can exist independently of minds. Just how would we be able to empirically prove this?

That's why materialism is nothing more than dogmatic.

You cannot escape the subjectivity of human perception and consciousness by merely claiming (by arbitrary assertion) some "God" thing. Your logic fails on many accounts, but for one b/c the term "God" can be switched out for just about anything we don't understand ("Magic unicorns account for the external world!"). You seem to be in the habit of just making things up (and only reading/believing your own biases - Berekley ahum!). Read your own statement above again. You just refuted yourself and don't even realize it. If hallucinations prove that things only exist in minds (i.e. - external reality isn't real)  then you can't posit that there is a God outside of your mind! Either way, you lose this battle. If everything is 'idea' then we are all in the same boat (and it doesn't matter, we still continue on). If everything is not idea (and there is an external world) then we are all STILL in the same boat. You haven't demonstrated (and neither did Berkeley) what you're intending to.

Secondly, you have continually attempted to use the word "prove" as if we all agree with you on your definition of that term and what it means (i.e. - that we all agree with your Epistemology) but we don't. It is not "nonsensical" to hold the position that there is an external reality outside of our minds (had you read Kant you might know that). From reading your responses it seems to me that you have only read just barely enough to try to be dangerous (i.e. - you have not educated yourself on the history of philosophy and you haven't bothered to research the responses to idealism since Berkeley). But catering only to your own bible/Christianity biases in this way doesn't show that you actually care about what's true. It just shows that you are willing to practice confirmation bias to suit your own ends. The pursuit of truth doesn't even enter into it for you, does it? You're just thinking, "I must rebut their answers. There has to be an answer to them. They can't be right. 1 Peter 3:15" (or something like this).

Last, this whole thing about "see the same things" is completely nonsensical and doesn't help your argument at all. Are you just shootin' from the hip?

You know who skeptic reminds me of? The current Republican Congress, and we're Obama. When we're correct about something, he does everything he can (which is not much) to either refute it (if he knew what the word meant) or change the subject (as in ignoring), and state something immaterial so "we" come off as the bad guy yet actually it is he who is.

Seems so similar to me. But I bet he is an Conservative Evangelical Christian Republican (based on some of his sources), and to him we're all a bunch of Obama's for him to defeat.

He's doing a piss poor job of it.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1185 on: October 25, 2013, 09:54:15 PM »

It's not incredulity. It's showing you that we can talk, see, and hear in our dreams despite not using our senses. This shows that God can do all these things without needing senses.

You don't have any training in philosophy or logic, do you? B/c your argument clearly does not follow. Let's look at your argument is syllogistic form, shall we?

P1- We can "do things" in our dreams
C- Therefore, God

FAIL. Dude, this reasoning would land you a whopping F- in a basic level logic class. You aren't helping yourself one bit. Sorry. Your argument IS IN FACT Incredulity and you are refusing to see it. Further, you cannot "do things" in your dreams. You are imagining doing things. If idealism is true (as you are trying to argue) then you have no way of distinguishing between the two. If it's 'The Matrix' for you, then it is such for everyone - and merely CLAIMING a God doesn't get you out of that.

Yes, the truth of your mighty ignorance of science and philosophy can be mighty ugly, can't it? Your question is ill-formed and demonstrates quite clearly that you haven't studied the rebuttals to Berkeley and metaphysical idealism. Have you? If you had you would't be asking this question. Furthermore, and as I've already stated, even if I agreed with the assertion that "all is idea" (and that no material exists) this wouldn't say anything as to the conclusion you are trying to reach (that some "God" is needed). All that is needed then is a resounding "Prove it!" which you haven't done. Again, arbitrary assertions don't get you out of your own idealism. Study more philosophy. It will really help you!

Nobody has ever empirically proven that an external world can exist independently of our senses. Doing so is a futile effort though. You constantly refer back to your senses to explain it, which you're not supposed to do because we are talking about something being independent of our senses.

You have missed the point entirely (over and over) b/c you keep assuming things that have not been granted (i.e. - that "proof" is only empirical in this regard, that there must be some absolute knowledge of an external world, or that your arbitrary answer gets you out of the problem of subjectivity). None of these assumptions gets you anywhere and if you had studied philosophy in any depth you would know this. Again, you are simply ignorant (of both science and philosophy) and are basing your assumptions upon credulity and arguments from ignorance/incredulity.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 10:00:54 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1186 on: October 25, 2013, 09:54:27 PM »
What belief do I have that lacks proof?....

The belief that other people have minds and see the same world you see. It's a dogmatic assumption.
Thus, solipsism remains only logical position for the atheist.
I have no aversion to what your mind may see or perceive,or that it exists,just that it lacks education.

I see that some of you guys have not heard these philosophical ideas before. Solipsism is not my idea. No one has proven other minds exist. You can only prove your own mind exists. It's an assumption that other minds exist. Nothing more, nothing else.

Ignorance can be cured though. That's the good thing. Just gotta study philosophy.

You haven't studied philosophy, therefore: you first.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1187 on: October 25, 2013, 11:07:27 PM »
he has not looked beyond certain pages of his Bible Nam. He pretends to know things about science and philosophy. I think he gets all his info watching Kirk Cameron videos
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1188 on: October 25, 2013, 11:15:55 PM »
he has not looked beyond certain pages of his Bible Nam. He pretends to know things about science and philosophy. I think he gets all his info watching Kirk Cameron videos

He hasn't read the Bible. When he finds a "philosophy" by someone he likes he copies down the verses they point out, and probably looks those up. I doubt he owns a Bible, and if he does, the bind hasn't been broken.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.