Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 34621 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1044 on: October 25, 2013, 02:21:18 AM »
^^ He believes the moon only exists in our minds in the first place, apparently.

Thereby contradicting himself, and Berkeley.

No, that's what you would have to believe in order for atheism to make sense.

An external world independent of our senses is unprovable, so it is a faith based belief.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1045 on: October 25, 2013, 02:21:30 AM »
^^ He believes the moon only exists in our minds in the first place, apparently.

Thereby contradicting himself, and Berkeley.
Agreed, although I admit I do not know about the Berkeley stuff
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1046 on: October 25, 2013, 02:23:04 AM »
Skeptic.

Due to how you think, nuclear fusion and sub-atomic particles do not exist.

Due to this, the world is now destroyed...congrats.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1047 on: October 25, 2013, 02:23:18 AM »
People see different things. The same object can be seen as 2 different colors if viewed by 2 different people. The object cannot objectively be 2 different colors at the same time.

You mean like in instances of colour blindness?  No, you're right.  The wavelengths of light being reflected/emitted are the same for both people.  They can verify this by each using the same instrument to check it.

A backyard is small to a human, but like a whole world to ant. What is the true objective perception?

"Small to a human" and "like a whole world to an ant" are not mutually exclusive.  Both refer to different relationships.

"Objective perception" is an oxymoron.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1048 on: October 25, 2013, 02:24:13 AM »

People see different things. The same object can be seen as 2 different colors if viewed by 2 different people. The object cannot objectively be 2 different colors at the same time.

A backyard is small to a human, but like a whole world to ant. What is the true objective perception?
That is very different to saying that something only exists in your mind.
Seeing something differently is not being debated here, you were questioning things actually existing or not.
Different argument.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Online Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1049 on: October 25, 2013, 02:24:37 AM »
No, that's what you would have to believe in order for atheism to make sense.

You are lying; I have already explained that this is not a point of difference between atheism and theism.  And you even agreed.

An external world independent of our senses is unprovable, so it is a faith based belief.

I already explained something that proves it:  The existence of any input to our minds at all.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1050 on: October 25, 2013, 02:28:50 AM »
I already explained something that proves it:  The existence of any input to our minds at all.

You're assuming it's input from an external world.
Speaking like Locke making unnecessary assumptions.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1051 on: October 25, 2013, 02:30:38 AM »
I am talking about new information, not old information.

If it is new then it is not internal to the conscious mind.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1052 on: October 25, 2013, 02:35:02 AM »
I already explained something that proves it:  The existence of any input to our minds at all.

You're assuming it's input from an external world.
Speaking like Locke making unnecessary assumptions.
Azfgari already made a good point about using instruments to measure wavelengths.
Would you not say that the fact we have machines that can observe their surroundings and react acordingly proves that things exist outside of a "human mind" eg  aircraft autopilots?
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Online Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1053 on: October 25, 2013, 02:36:18 AM »
^^ He'll just say that the mere existence of the aircraft is impossible to know to be outside your mind, as is the existence of other minds.

He is a solipsist.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1054 on: October 25, 2013, 02:37:17 AM »
^^ must just be my mind that goes on holiday then
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1055 on: October 25, 2013, 02:40:59 AM »
I already explained something that proves it:  The existence of any input to our minds at all.

You're assuming it's input from an external world.
Speaking like Locke making unnecessary assumptions.
Azfgari already made a good point about using instruments to measure wavelengths.
Would you not say that the fact we have machines that can observe their surroundings and react acordingly proves that things exist outside of a "human mind" eg  aircraft autopilots?

Is a mind required to see the results on the instruments?
is a mind required to perceive the instruments in the first place?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1056 on: October 25, 2013, 02:41:22 AM »
I just googled solipsist.
I never knew that idea even existed.
One new thing learnt today
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1057 on: October 25, 2013, 02:42:26 AM »
^^ He'll just say that the mere existence of the aircraft is impossible to know to be outside your mind, as is the existence of other minds.

He is a solipsist.

Not a solipsist.

But a solipsist is the only logical thing for an atheist to be. Nothing can be proven to be independent of your senses because you have nothing to rely on except your senses. Everything is dependent on your senses!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1058 on: October 25, 2013, 02:42:33 AM »
What I don't get is how he somehow relates this to atheism vs theism.  Both approaches must make an equal number of basic assumptions on this topic.  Both atheists and theists believe in an external reality, and make an assumption that allows for that external reality.

This angle of argument won't do what he wants it to do.

Not a solipsist.

But a solipsist is the only logical thing for an atheist to be. Nothing can be proven to be independent of your senses because you have nothing to rely on except your senses. Everything is dependent on your senses!

Believing in a deity does not make things any better in that regard.  You still have to depend on your sensory inputs about the "mind of God".
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 02:44:17 AM by Azdgari »
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1059 on: October 25, 2013, 02:43:24 AM »

I am sorry. I did not know you were that far behind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

Let me know when you're ready to continue.

WOW. Way to dodge the question...ass. She asked you for YOUR definition, in your own words! That link doesn't help you one bit. You can't assume "minds" are what you think they are.

I am happy with the dictionary definitions:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mind

If you're just stalling because the argument is solid steel, then just say so.
Answer the question I'm asking.

You agreed to abide by the rules of the forum and I'm actually gong to insist that you do so.

I'm asking YOU to define "mind" without a circular reference.

Still waiting, after 4 more pages. You can keep dodging it, and ignoring it when I won't let you dodge, but I'm not gong to stop reminding you that you have several questions from me that you have evaded like a mo-fo. Do I really need to get a mod involved to get you to answer direct questions?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1060 on: October 25, 2013, 02:45:55 AM »
I already explained something that proves it:  The existence of any input to our minds at all.

You're assuming it's input from an external world.
Speaking like Locke making unnecessary assumptions.
Azfgari already made a good point about using instruments to measure wavelengths.
Would you not say that the fact we have machines that can observe their surroundings and react acordingly proves that things exist outside of a "human mind" eg  aircraft autopilots?

Is a mind required to see the results on the instruments?
is a mind required to perceive the instruments in the first place?
I think this debate is going to go round and round in circles.
You cannot grasp that observation of something is not the same as the existence of something.
Yes, perceptions can vary but that is not the same as something existing or not.
Things can be proven to exist, your argument is without proof.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1061 on: October 25, 2013, 02:49:44 AM »
^^ He'll just say that the mere existence of the aircraft is impossible to know to be outside your mind, as is the existence of other minds.

He is a solipsist.

Not a solipsist.

But a solipsist is the only logical thing for an atheist to be. Nothing can be proven to be independent of your senses because you have nothing to rely on except your senses. Everything is dependent on your senses!
And so what sensory input do you get from god?
Nothing, so god can never be proven to exist.
Actually, even with input you are saying god would only be in your mind!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 02:52:16 AM by Jonny-UK »
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1062 on: October 25, 2013, 02:54:19 AM »
I love this guys argument.

You need to perceive something with a mind or it does not exist.

You mean like god?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1063 on: October 25, 2013, 02:56:20 AM »
I love this guys argument.

You need to perceive something with a mind or it does not exist.

You mean like god?
I think that is the basic idea, rather seems like shooting yourself in the foot.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1064 on: October 25, 2013, 03:01:19 AM »
I'm saying how he thinks god can be excluded from it...
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1065 on: October 25, 2013, 03:51:38 AM »
^^I think I should have put "seems like he is shooting himself in the foot"
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1066 on: October 25, 2013, 04:29:00 AM »
^^I think I should have put "seems like he is shooting himself in the foot"

Ahh i see.

Human error at its finest.

I wonder why god made such a thing? *wink* *wink*...

Would the statement "Jesus did no sacrifice as he knew it would happen and that he would not die" be correct?...
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1067 on: October 25, 2013, 04:29:35 AM »

"One prominent physician of his day claimed Berkeley was
insane. The great Dr. Samuel Johnson dismissed Berkeley's ideas with
his famous "I refute Berkeley thus" and then he kicked a rock. Of course, this did not refute Berkeley at all. It only proved Johnson had not understood Berkeley's point. Berkeley did not claim the non-existence of stones or that kicking a stone will not produce sensation. He claimed the rock did not exist apart from the perception of its solidity or the perception of pain when struck, and so on. An oft-repeated epitaph summarizes the general reaction to Berkeley: "His arguments produce no conviction, though they cannot be refuted."

http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2010/11/i-refute-berkeley-thus.html

You will bear in mind that Johnson's rejection of Berkeley's ideas was given in the light of the state of knowledge at the time. You will also note that we are talking about Britain in the 18th century, when the questioning of God's existence was not at all common and likely to get you into trouble.

Berkeley was just as much fooled by the lack of logic of immaterialism as the Buddhists had been 2,000 years before.

The problem is that Berkeley's ideas do not prove, or even suggest there is a god of any sort.

For Berkeley's ideas to be true, you first have to assume there is a god capable and willing  to imagine the universe and all that is in it down to the subatomic level. - First assume there is a god and then you can prove there is a god if what I say without any proof whatsoever is entirely true.

If you assume the existence of gods, then, and only then, can Berkeley's Buddhist ideas work.

This then produces difficulties with Free Will[1]: whose thoughts would have precedent? God's or yours?

However, by Berkeley's own reasoning, god only exists if we think about him - gods are in our minds only. I think that is what atheists have been saying for some time.

 
 1. Please do not start another "Free Will" thread or deflect this one
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 04:32:35 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1068 on: October 25, 2013, 05:40:31 AM »
People see different things. The same object can be seen as 2 different colors if viewed by 2 different people. The object cannot objectively be 2 different colors at the same time.

You mean like in instances of colour blindness?  No, you're right.  The wavelengths of light being reflected/emitted are the same for both people.  They can verify this by each using the same instrument to check it.


And, technically, the object consists of every wavelength of colour except for the one that it's reflecting.

Using objectively in the sense I think Skeptic means, objects are myriad different colours, it is our perception that narrows it down to 1. This being the case each perception of the colour is absolutely correct albeit in a negative sense.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 06:19:23 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Fiji

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1069 on: October 25, 2013, 06:49:25 AM »
Say what you want, but Isarel being reborn was prophesized.

And the people who made that happen had a vested interest in making it happen ... as prophecies go ... that's hardly amazing.

Israel was also a sitting duck in a bunch of wars and always came through. Israel has been getting a huge helping hand from above.

If by 'above' you mean Downingstreet 10 and The White House, than sure, Israel had help "from above".
But, sitting duck? Hardly. In every single war, Israel, with help from the aforementioned 'above', had superiority in weapons in just about every way imaginable.
If anyone was a sitting duck in those wars, it was the poor Arabian saps who where thrown into battle in outdated tanks.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1070 on: October 25, 2013, 07:18:48 AM »
Well just so you know, nobody has ever refuted Berkeley.

Umm, that's false.  Kant, among others, refuted him, although I will be the first to admit that the case for idealism is quite a bit stronger than most people realize.  (It's much harder to critique than, for example, Cartesian interactionism.)

Quote
Even Philosophy classes rarely touch his stuff anymore

This is also false.  Berkeley is considered to be among the more important and influential philosophers of the modern period, and that being the case, anyone who studies philosophy to any real extent at the undergrad level is going to study him.  He was part of my sophomore year course, "Modern Philosophy: Descartes to Hume", for example.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1071 on: October 25, 2013, 09:23:28 AM »
Quote
    Star and Crescent  - Represents the moon goddess Dianna and the "son of the morning", the name of Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12.
Witchcraft uses it the way shown and Satanism turns it in the opposite direction.

Must be some confusion. Jesus claims to be Lucifer/Venus, in Rev 22:16, and 2 Peter 1:19-21.   Lucifer = Venus in Roman, not Satan. Lucifer doesn't have a name, because Lucifer is the planet Venus.  Satan may have erroneously been called Lucifer, by idiots, but Lucifer can't have a name, because he's a Christian fiction.

Someone had to say it. (I'm still on page 35)
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1072 on: October 25, 2013, 09:31:31 AM »
Oh, Jesus Christ, I'm not reading past page 35, on principle.

I think even skeptrick8736287 can see I don't believe in Jesus Christ, just because I said "Jesus H Christ", but that's the level of his arguments, in general.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.