Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 21087 times)

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #986 on: October 25, 2013, 12:18:22 AM »
How do you know that? You're just assuming it.

The same way scientists assume the external world is real and exists outside of our minds. Nobody has ever empirically proved that an external world exists.

Materialism is based on one big assumption.

I could just as well say this:
Quote
How do you know that? You're just assuming it.

The same way believers assume that their god is real and exists outside of our minds. Nobody has ever empirically proved that a god exists.

Religious belief is based on one big assumption.

We seem to be at a stalemate.  Any suggestions?

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #987 on: October 25, 2013, 12:18:45 AM »
And, in getting back to Skeptic's take on the whole thing, does this mean that the world somehow didn't exist after it was formed but before it was populated, or does that whole thing come down to the idea that god's consciousness somehow made it an actuality? Because that's a concept which just makes my brain hurt...

And while I know that Skeptic is not on board with evolutionary theory, does this mean that, just supposing it was true, would that mean that nothing existed before mankind evolved even though there were millions of organisms and animals on it? Or are we still down to the concept that it would be god's consciousness in any case which would grant actual reality to the world in that state?

"Animals existing millions of years ago" is an idea that comes from minds. Nobody can say that animals existed millions of years ago if there were no minds around to observe them.

Things can only be described by minds so without minds around, you can't describe anything. It's nonsensical to say "something exists when nobody is around" because you can't describe it if nobody is around.

The only way out is to say that God is always observing everything. You can not empirically claim that "things existed before minds" because a mind is needed to empirically claim anything. So without any minds, you can't empirically make statements about a time before minds.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #988 on: October 25, 2013, 12:21:16 AM »
This is stupid. It's like saying a tree fell in the woods but made no sound. Just because no one was there to hear, doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. If none of us were here doesn't mean reality wouldn't still exist. It's an actuality, not the notion of one.

-Nam

How do you know that? You're just assuming it.

The same way scientists assume the external world is real and exists outside of our minds. Nobody has ever empirically proved that an external world exists.

Materialism is based on one big assumption.

I'm assuming nothing because there's so much evidence out there by countless people who have heard a tree fall, whether from a distance or up close and personal. People actually cut them down for a living, and they hear the sound.

So, if you take the people out of the equation, based on the known knowledge and evidence that it indeed makes a sound, the conclusion is: it still makes a sound.

Let's take this a step further. People nowhere around, yet a recording device is placed near a tree about to fall down: IT WILL RECORD SOUND.

You have to be the biggest idiot I have come across. Ever. In. My. Life. How stupid can you be?

Stop speaking utter nonsense, it makes you look really really STUPID!

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #989 on: October 25, 2013, 12:24:52 AM »
Maybe if I make it even bigger, he'll have the honesty to answer a non-controversial point...

Sheesh.  Honesty from some Christians is like pulling teeth...

Would you agree with DeM's post if he'd said:

(edited with underlines) The mind of God is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how the mind of God actually is. ...
His point remains the same.

God's existence has been proven though. it's not the same thing.  The only way reality can be here before and after humans is if there is a mind around to see it. If all minds are gone, it's nonsensical to think reality can still exist. All reality is dependent on minds. All knowledge we have comes from minds. Without minds, there is nothing!

Ergo, God is real.  :)
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #990 on: October 25, 2013, 12:25:10 AM »
And, in getting back to Skeptic's take on the whole thing, does this mean that the world somehow didn't exist after it was formed but before it was populated, or does that whole thing come down to the idea that god's consciousness somehow made it an actuality? Because that's a concept which just makes my brain hurt...

And while I know that Skeptic is not on board with evolutionary theory, does this mean that, just supposing it was true, would that mean that nothing existed before mankind evolved even though there were millions of organisms and animals on it? Or are we still down to the concept that it would be god's consciousness in any case which would grant actual reality to the world in that state?

"Animals existing millions of years ago" is an idea that comes from minds. Nobody can say that animals existed millions of years ago if there were no minds around to observe them.

Things can only be described by minds so without minds around, you can't describe anything. It's nonsensical to say "something exists when nobody is around" because you can't describe it if nobody is around.

The only way out is to say that God is always observing everything. You can not empirically claim that "things existed before minds" because a mind is needed to empirically claim anything. So without any minds, you can't empirically make statements about a time before minds.

How do you explain the bones recovered? The frozen animals, like the countless Mammoths that are found in the Arctic? Oh, they were put there to fool us. I see.

Moronic!

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #991 on: October 25, 2013, 12:25:55 AM »
This is stupid. It's like saying a tree fell in the woods but made no sound. Just because no one was there to hear, doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. If none of us were here doesn't mean reality wouldn't still exist. It's an actuality, not the notion of one.

-Nam

How do you know that? You're just assuming it.

The same way scientists assume the external world is real and exists outside of our minds. Nobody has ever empirically proved that an external world exists.

Materialism is based on one big assumption.

I'm assuming nothing because there's so much evidence out there by countless people who have heard a tree fall, whether from a distance or up close and personal. People actually cut them down for a living, and they hear the sound.

So, if you take the people out of the equation, based on the known knowledge and evidence that it indeed makes a sound, the conclusion is: it still makes a sound.

Let's take this a step further. People nowhere around, yet a recording device is placed near a tree about to fall down: IT WILL RECORD SOUND.

You have to be the biggest idiot I have come across. Ever. In. My. Life. How stupid can you be?

Stop speaking utter nonsense, it makes you look really really STUPID!

-Nam

What hears the sound on the recorder? A mind.
Without a mind, you don't hear a sound on the recorder.

Still not evidence of an external world.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #992 on: October 25, 2013, 12:26:58 AM »
How do you explain drunkenness?  Surely an imaginary material solution should not be able to affect the immaterial mind...
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #993 on: October 25, 2013, 12:29:27 AM »
Things can only be described by minds so without minds around, you can't describe anything. It's nonsensical to say "something exists when nobody is around" because you can't describe it if nobody is around.
I think it's more accurate to say "I don't think that we can know what exists if nobody is around to describe it."

Quote
The only way out is to say that God is always observing everything...
But why do you have to resort to this "only way out"?  What's wrong with, y'know, just letting the universe be itself and not be dependent upon a mind perceiving it?  If anything, I think mind is dependent on physical universe and not the other way around.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #994 on: October 25, 2013, 12:30:06 AM »
How do you explain the bones recovered? The frozen animals, like the countless Mammoths that are found in the Arctic? Oh, they were put there to fool us. I see.

Moronic!

-Nam

The mammoths used to exist. God was always observing them.

Without God, how do you empirically show that mammoths lived during a time before minds? Can you describe what a mammoth is without our 5 senses observing it empirically?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #995 on: October 25, 2013, 12:30:56 AM »
This is stupid. It's like saying a tree fell in the woods but made no sound. Just because no one was there to hear, doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. If none of us were here doesn't mean reality wouldn't still exist. It's an actuality, not the notion of one.

-Nam

How do you know that? You're just assuming it.

The same way scientists assume the external world is real and exists outside of our minds. Nobody has ever empirically proved that an external world exists.

Materialism is based on one big assumption.

I'm assuming nothing because there's so much evidence out there by countless people who have heard a tree fall, whether from a distance or up close and personal. People actually cut them down for a living, and they hear the sound.

So, if you take the people out of the equation, based on the known knowledge and evidence that it indeed makes a sound, the conclusion is: it still makes a sound.

Let's take this a step further. People nowhere around, yet a recording device is placed near a tree about to fall down: IT WILL RECORD SOUND.

You have to be the biggest idiot I have come across. Ever. In. My. Life. How stupid can you be?

Stop speaking utter nonsense, it makes you look really really STUPID!

-Nam

What hears the sound on the recorder? A mind.
Without a mind, you don't hear a sound on the recorder.

Still not evidence of an external world.

Talking to you is like talking to a slug.

You implied, it doesn't make a sound because no one was there to hear it. So, I gave a hypothetical situation where no one is there yet the sound is recorded, and you come back with an idiot's response by adding a nonsensical viewpoint.

There's no point in speaking to you because you're an idiotic moron. It's like talking to a rock and waiting for a response.

I feel bad for the rock for comparing you to it.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #996 on: October 25, 2013, 12:31:53 AM »
I pity the slug too.

-Nam
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #997 on: October 25, 2013, 12:34:05 AM »
Talking to you is like talking to a slug.

You implied, it doesn't make a sound because no one was there to hear it. So, I gave a hypothetical situation where no one is there yet the sound is recorded, and you come back with an idiot's response by adding a nonsensical viewpoint.

There's no point in speaking to you because you're an idiotic moron. It's like talking to a rock and waiting for a response.

I feel bad for the rock for comparing you to it.

-Nam

There is no sound on the recorder unless a mind is around to hear it.

That's the whole point of the tree falls in the woods question.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #998 on: October 25, 2013, 12:34:50 AM »
One last question, two parter, skeptic:

How do you know Jesus existed/s if no one today was around back then to observe him?
How do you know your god exists/ed if no one today can observe it?

If you come up with an answer that is in the positive then you are a troll.

-Nam
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #999 on: October 25, 2013, 12:36:15 AM »
I think it's more accurate to say "I don't think that we can know what exists if nobody is around to describe it."

Excellent!

Now, just tell the scientists that. They seem to describe plenty of things existing before any minds were around.  :o
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1000 on: October 25, 2013, 12:40:59 AM »
One last question, two parter, skeptic:

How do you know Jesus existed/s if no one today was around back then to observe him?

I'm not talking about people today.
I'm talking about if all humans went extinct.

How do you know your god exists/ed if no one today can observe it?

Because without God, nothing would exist. God is being itself, necessary. God is described as "that which cannot not exist."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1001 on: October 25, 2013, 12:43:44 AM »
Technical point about the tree scenario:  At the time of the actual event, there was no human on the scene.  The falling tree did in fact interact with the air and the ground, causing a sound wave that interacted with the recorder and altered the magnetic pattern on the recording tape.  In this way, by analyzing the imprints of physical entities on other physical entities, we are able to trace events backwards and come up with sufficiently plausible explanations.

I think we should keep using this method.  If we ever do find a creative intelligence behind the formation of the universe, it'll probably be a scientific discovery rather than a religious one... And I suspect that such a being will be physical rather than ethereal.  (It may even extend our knowledge of matter and energy, by finally defining what we now call "spiritual")
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1002 on: October 25, 2013, 12:45:06 AM »
Maybe if I make it even bigger, he'll have the honesty to answer a non-controversial point...

Sheesh.  Honesty from some Christians is like pulling teeth...

Would you agree with DeM's post if he'd said:

(edited with underlines) The mind of God is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how the mind of God actually is. ...
His point remains the same.

God's existence has been proven though. it's not the same thing.  The only way reality can be here before and after humans is if there is a mind around to see it. If all minds are gone, it's nonsensical to think reality can still exist. All reality is dependent on minds. All knowledge we have comes from minds. Without minds, there is nothing!

Ergo, God is real.  :)

I agree God's mind was around before us. This is how things existed before humans.

In an atheistic universe, there's no way to describe what anything was like before humans, or even if anything existed at all. Anyone who says they can is just going off the materialistic assumption.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1003 on: October 25, 2013, 12:45:36 AM »
You're a troll. Why? Because your same argument about not hearing a tree can be applied to your reasoning of god existing. How can a god exist if no one is here to observe it, your reply: because without god nothing would exist.

Ever think: without someone to observe god, that it wouldn't exist?

Of course not because you're a troll.

And a moronic idiot troll at that.

-Nam
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1004 on: October 25, 2013, 12:51:41 AM »
You're a troll. Why? Because your same argument about not hearing a tree can be applied to your reasoning of god existing. How can a god exist if no one is here to observe it, your reply: because without god nothing would exist.

Ever think: without someone to observe god, that it wouldn't exist?

Of course not because you're a troll.

And a moronic idiot troll at that.

-Nam

You really think George Berkeley was a troll?
After all, this isn't my idea.

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4r.htm
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1005 on: October 25, 2013, 12:55:54 AM »
You're a troll. Why? Because your same argument about not hearing a tree can be applied to your reasoning of god existing. How can a god exist if no one is here to observe it, your reply: because without god nothing would exist.

Ever think: without someone to observe god, that it wouldn't exist?

Of course not because you're a troll.

And a moronic idiot troll at that.

-Nam

You really think George Berkeley was a troll?
After all, this isn't my idea.

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4r.htm

George whoever isn't the one who came here to spew it, you are. And the fact you can't admit it's the same logic just shows how stupid you are.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1006 on: October 25, 2013, 01:00:49 AM »
You're a troll. Why? Because your same argument about not hearing a tree can be applied to your reasoning of god existing. How can a god exist if no one is here to observe it, your reply: because without god nothing would exist.

Ever think: without someone to observe god, that it wouldn't exist?

Of course not because you're a troll.

And a moronic idiot troll at that.

-Nam

You really think George Berkeley was a troll?
After all, this isn't my idea.

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4r.htm

George whoever isn't the one who came here to spew it, you are. And the fact you can't admit it's the same logic just shows how stupid you are.

-Nam

Well just so you know, nobody has ever refuted Berkeley.

Even Philosophy classes rarely touch his stuff anymore because it's irrefutable.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1007 on: October 25, 2013, 01:01:17 AM »
Berkeley thought up the idea because he was afraid that people were learning too much about the gaps that his god had previously hidden in.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1008 on: October 25, 2013, 01:01:28 AM »
You're a troll. Why? Because your same argument about not hearing a tree can be applied to your reasoning of god existing. How can a god exist if no one is here to observe it, your reply: because without god nothing would exist.

Ever think: without someone to observe god, that it wouldn't exist?

Of course not because you're a troll.

And a moronic idiot troll at that.

-Nam

You really think George Berkeley was a troll?
After all, this isn't my idea.

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4r.htm

George whoever isn't the one who came here to spew it, you are. And the fact you can't admit it's the same logic just shows how stupid you are.

-Nam

Well just so you know, nobody has ever refuted Berkeley.

Even Philosophy classes rarely touch his stuff anymore because it's irrefutable.

Wrong. I just did.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1009 on: October 25, 2013, 01:02:25 AM »
"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."[1][2]

This is as evasive as it gets, folks.  Skep, you've spent 35 pages dodging every major question we throw at your with distractions, mind games, wordplay and red herrings.  You're in a corner you can't get out of, so you have three choices.

1) Continue being an evasive moron.
2) Admit that you have no clue what you are talking about.
3) Leave.

Take your pick, Skep.  Take your pick.
 1. Quote from Amazon.com Reviewer Scott D. Weitzenhoffer
 2. More information on the "Pigeon Chess" meme
Gay atheist teen.  But none of that should matter.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1010 on: October 25, 2013, 01:04:27 AM »
Skeptic,

I just did a quick Google search on "refuting George Berkeley", and the first link was an entire website refuting George Berkeley. So, again: troll and proved a definite liar, or extremely ignorant but you're the former, you practice the latter.

-Nam
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1011 on: October 25, 2013, 01:06:59 AM »
Skeptic,

I just did a quick Google search on "refuting George Berkeley", and the first link was an entire website refuting George Berkeley. So, again: troll and proved a definite liar, or extremely ignorant but you're the former, you practice the latter.

-Nam

Johnson never refuted Berkeley though. Berkeley never claimed that other things don't exist.

Johnson doesn't understand the argument, and neither do you.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1012 on: October 25, 2013, 01:07:49 AM »
Anyone else notice the irony of Skep's profile's tagline, "Bringing Souls To Christ Since 2005"?  In light of the fact that he's only been discrediting his faith on here so far?

An agent of his own version of Satan, he is.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1013 on: October 25, 2013, 01:11:09 AM »
Anyone else notice the irony of Skep's profile's tagline, "Bringing Souls To Christ Since 2005"?  In light of the fact that he's only been discrediting his faith on here so far?

An agent of his own version of Satan, he is.

Hey, if you can explain how you know what existed before human minds, then be my guest. Until then, Berkeley is still standing.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #1014 on: October 25, 2013, 01:12:33 AM »
Skeptic,

I just did a quick Google search on "refuting George Berkeley", and the first link was an entire website refuting George Berkeley. So, again: troll and proved a definite liar, or extremely ignorant but you're the former, you practice the latter.

-Nam

Johnson never refuted Berkeley though. Berkeley never claimed that other things don't exist.

Johnson doesn't understand the argument, and neither do you.

You are an idiot. If you stay here, we will berate you to death. And if you think I've berated you, you haven't experienced a "Nam berating" but I will oblige, and enjoy every second of it; don't even care if they ban me for it: it'll be worth it.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?