Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 20590 times)

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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #957 on: October 24, 2013, 08:06:47 PM »
Yes, we can see brain activity and our mind at work. It's called an fMRI.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #958 on: October 24, 2013, 08:07:05 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

You see to be having no difficulty in stating things without using your mind. This theory of yours was first enunciated by George Berkeley as"immaterialism" but he must have got it from Buddhists who thought of it c. 500BC,

So basically, you're a Buddhist?

No, I am not Buddhist.

My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

It's one of the great slam dunk proofs for God.

Since I fully expect you to pick and choose which posts you will respond to I'll just grab this one as well and ask again, in anticipation of being ignored.

Explain the bullshit in the above post please. What the babbling fuck did you just suggest had to be done?

Define "mind" without a circular reference please. Understand that I will continue to request definitions of terms until you see the problem with the word game you're trying to play.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #959 on: October 24, 2013, 08:10:00 PM »

No, I am not Buddhist.

My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

It's one of the great slam dunk proofs for God.

Assuming your position in advance is "slam dunk" proof for God? How? A mind is function of a physical substrate (a brain) and all of the available evidence shows us that this is the case. When brains are damaged, so too are the corresponding functions associated with the mind. You have the same problem you have always had: YOU'RE GULLIBLE. You are practicing credulity and ignorance, and it shows. You cannot assume your position of what a "mind" is. You have to demonstrate it by evidence and sound reasoning.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #960 on: October 24, 2013, 08:10:41 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

You see to be having no difficulty in stating things without using your mind. This theory of yours was first enunciated by George Berkeley as"immaterialism" but he must have got it from Buddhists who thought of it c. 500BC,

So basically, you're a Buddhist?

No, I am not Buddhist.

My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

It's one of the great slam dunk proofs for God.

Since I fully expect you to pick and choose which posts you will respond to I'll just grab this one as well and ask again, in anticipation of being ignored.

Explain the bullshit in the above post please. What the babbling fuck did you just suggest had to be done?

Define "mind" without a circular reference please. Understand that I will continue to request definitions of terms until you see the problem with the word game you're trying to play.

I am sorry. I did not know you were that far behind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

Let me know when you're ready to continue.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #961 on: October 24, 2013, 08:12:44 PM »

I am sorry. I did not know you were that far behind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

Let me know when you're ready to continue.

WOW. Way to dodge the question...ass. She asked you for YOUR definition, in your own words! That link doesn't help you one bit. You can't assume "minds" are what you think they are.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #962 on: October 24, 2013, 08:14:33 PM »
Define "mind" without a circular reference please. Understand that I will continue to request definitions of terms until you see the problem with the word game you're trying to play.

And no god's existence, much less the one you believe in, has been proven. What are you really saying? You do understand that we are talking about proof - empirical evidencial proof, not subjective personal beliefs, which are not proof no matter how strong those beliefs might be.

And I still think you're a Poe.  ;)

What is empirical evidence to you?
Is it just based on the 5 senses? if so, we run into a bit of a problem with empiricism.

Can you see your mind?
Can you hear your mind?
Can you taste your mind?
Can you touch your mind?
Can you smell your mind?

You're getting ahead of yourself. we should probably start by figuring out what you think qualifies as empirical evidence.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #963 on: October 24, 2013, 08:14:42 PM »

No, I am not Buddhist.

My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

It's one of the great slam dunk proofs for God.

Assuming your position in advance is "slam dunk" proof for God? How? A mind is function of a physical substrate (a brain) and all of the available evidence shows us that this is the case. When brains are damaged, so too are the corresponding functions associated with the mind. You have the same problem you have always had: YOU'RE GULLIBLE. You are practicing credulity and ignorance, and it shows. You cannot assume your position of what a "mind" is. You have to demonstrate it by evidence and sound reasoning.

You're missing the point.

If all humans went extinct, nothing would exist. It's nonsensical to say that something can exist if there are no minds.

What would exist and how would you know what exists?  :o
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #964 on: October 24, 2013, 08:16:09 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

You see to be having no difficulty in stating things without using your mind. This theory of yours was first enunciated by George Berkeley as"immaterialism" but he must have got it from Buddhists who thought of it c. 500BC,

So basically, you're a Buddhist?

No, I am not Buddhist.

My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

It's one of the great slam dunk proofs for God.

Since I fully expect you to pick and choose which posts you will respond to I'll just grab this one as well and ask again, in anticipation of being ignored.

Explain the bullshit in the above post please. What the babbling fuck did you just suggest had to be done?

Define "mind" without a circular reference please. Understand that I will continue to request definitions of terms until you see the problem with the word game you're trying to play.

I am sorry. I did not know you were that far behind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

Let me know when you're ready to continue.

That's not what I asked you. Try again.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #965 on: October 24, 2013, 08:17:56 PM »

I am sorry. I did not know you were that far behind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

Let me know when you're ready to continue.

WOW. Way to dodge the question...ass. She asked you for YOUR definition, in your own words! That link doesn't help you one bit. You can't assume "minds" are what you think they are.

I am happy with the dictionary definitions:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mind

If you're just stalling because the argument is solid steel, then just say so.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #966 on: October 24, 2013, 08:18:21 PM »

You're missing the point.

If all humans went extinct, nothing would exist. It's nonsensical to say that something can exist if there are no minds.

What would exist and how would you know what exists?  :o

No, YOU are missing the point. You are ASSUMING (which seems to be your MO) what a mind is and then attempting to make claims based off of your assumption (as always). Again, a mind is a product of a physical substrate: a brain. Take away all brains in the universe and we are still left with other stuff besides brains. Your arguments are still irrational.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #967 on: October 24, 2013, 08:21:01 PM »

I am happy with the dictionary definitions:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mind

If you're just stalling because the argument is solid steel, then just say so.

Great! Then you admit that minds are "The human consciousness that originates in the brain", right?

The only thing solid steel is your credulity.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #968 on: October 24, 2013, 08:24:37 PM »
No, YOU are missing the point. You are ASSUMING (which seems to be your MO) what a mind is and then attempting to make claims based off of your assumption (as always). Again, a mind is a product of a physical substrate: a brain. Take away all brains in the universe and we are still left with other stuff besides brains. Your arguments are still irrational.

How do you know other stuff exists? The senses are deceiving. A colorblind person sees something as not red and you see something as red. Is the object both red and not red? Or is color just something in the mind? None of our senses escapes this problem.

I rest my case.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #969 on: October 24, 2013, 08:30:10 PM »
Yes, we can see brain activity and our mind at work. It's called an fMRI.

Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell mathematics?
Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell the laws of physics?
Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell love?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #970 on: October 24, 2013, 08:31:44 PM »
Here's 7 prophecies to get your feet wet a little before you swim over to the deep end.

http://www.ucg.org/doctrinal-beliefs/seven-prophecies-must-be-fulfilled-jesus-christs-return/
Read them, and frankly, I'm not impressed.  The problem with prophecies that depend on human actions is that you will always have humans who intentionally try to fulfill those prophecies for their own reasons.

But even leaving that aside, there's the very serious problem that those 'prophecies' are so nonspecific that they could mean just about anything - and generally do, depending on the person interpreting them.  Take the first one, the human race having the ability to exterminate itself.  The actual text, "if that time of troubles were not cut short, no living thing could survive; but for the sake of God's chosen it will be cut short", doesn't talk about the human race exterminating itself, as the article claims.  It talks about a time of troubles that would end with all living things dead.  So, the human race could very well exterminate itself (say, by nuclear bombardment), and there would be plenty of living things left to repopulate the Earth.  So this prophecy is a non-starter.

The second one, like the first, is interpreted to suit what the person who wrote the article wants it to mean.  It has nothing to do with a Jewish homeland being reestablished in the Middle East; the actual text reads, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near . . . For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled".  Where in there does it say that a Jewish homeland would be reestablished in the Middle East?  I mean, even when it was still called Palestine, Jerusalem was still called Jerusalem.  I don't believe its name has ever really changed.

The third prophecy doesn't even have anything to do with Jesus.  It's from Daniel, in the Old Testament.  Not only that, but they cite several other supposedly 'fulfilled' prophecies, also from Daniel, but these are obviously prophecies written after the fact, since Daniel was written around 164 BC - whereas the events that they supposedly prophecy happened over a hundred and fifty years earlier.  The prophecy continues in that vein until suddenly, it jumps to the end times.  Or did it?  The text reads, "At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them and pass through. He shall also enter the Glorious Land [the Holy Land], and many countries shall be overthrown".  But this is actually referring to the presumed final conflict between the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria, not the spin modern Christians are trying to put on it.

The remaining four 'prophecies' are just as bad as the first three.  They're such blatantly obvious attempts by Christians to try to claim that the "end times" are coming within their lifetimes that I have no particular interest in wasting another half hour or more just writing out how bad they are.  Suffice it to say that they're just attempts to try to shape modern events into ancient writings, and then claim that they're prophecies that have either been fulfilled or will be fulfilled.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #971 on: October 24, 2013, 08:33:17 PM »
Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell mathematics?

Yes.  Mathematics can be observed in the relationships between physical objects.

Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell the laws of physics?

The laws of physics were derived from observations of nature, so yes.

Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell love?

See it all the time.  Can you not?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #972 on: October 24, 2013, 08:38:45 PM »

I am sorry. I did not know you were that far behind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

Let me know when you're ready to continue.

WOW. Way to dodge the question...ass. She asked you for YOUR definition, in your own words! That link doesn't help you one bit. You can't assume "minds" are what you think they are.

I am happy with the dictionary definitions:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mind

If you're just stalling because the argument is solid steel, then just say so.
Answer the question I'm asking.

You agreed to abide by the rules of the forum and I'm actually gong to insist that you do so.

I'm asking YOU to define "mind" without a circular reference.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #973 on: October 24, 2013, 08:46:47 PM »
Once you've addressed the pending request, we'll move on to this one.

In this case, the point you need to address is the second one, as we will have finally finished the first one. I bolded it to make it easy for you to find - your part and mine.

Just making sure you don't forget where we're going.

You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.
<snip>
My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

<snip>
Explain the bullshit in the above post please. What the babbling fuck did you just suggest had to be done?
<snip>
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #974 on: October 24, 2013, 09:11:58 PM »
...You do know we can see you lurking here, don't you skepdude?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #975 on: October 24, 2013, 09:12:25 PM »
I rest my case.
Does anyone have some paper towels?

There seems to be a chessboard covered in pigeon shit here.  Don't know how that happened.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #976 on: October 24, 2013, 09:20:43 PM »

If all humans went extinct, nothing would exist. It's nonsensical to say that something can exist if there are no minds.

What would exist and how would you know what exists?  :o

This is like the old, "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it make a sound?" question.

Frankly, I've never gotten that. My husband actually says that it would NOT have made a sound, and as he is much better at logic than I am, I suppose there is some way in which this works. But I still don't get it.

Honest query here...can anyone explain to me in words I can understand how a sound is somehow not a sound if no one hears it?

And, in getting back to Skeptic's take on the whole thing, does this mean that the world somehow didn't exist after it was formed but before it was populated, or does that whole thing come down to the idea that god's consciousness somehow made it an actuality? Because that's a concept which just makes my brain hurt...

And while I know that Skeptic is not on board with evolutionary theory, does this mean that, just supposing it was true, would that mean that nothing existed before mankind evolved even though there were millions of organisms and animals on it? Or are we still down to the concept that it would be god's consciousness in any case which would grant actual reality to the world in that state?

Sorry this is really confused and rambling, but it really puzzles me, and the only reason I am not flat-out ridiculing the whole concept is the similarity to the tree/forest/sound question which I know I'm somehow not understanding as well.

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #977 on: October 24, 2013, 09:32:39 PM »
And, in getting back to Skeptic's take on the whole thing, <snip> that's a concept which just makes my brain hurt...

Apologies for mangling your post, but the above is something to keep in mind if you're going to actively engage with skepdude. That feeling is not going to go away and it ain't on you - the circular reasoning goes so fast in both directions whiplash is a real danger.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #978 on: October 24, 2013, 09:50:27 PM »
If the mind exists without the brain, why does it go haywire when someone's brain is damaged? Your personality resides in your brain--that is why people act differently when they have some brain damage. When you injure the brain "meat" of a human being, with drugs or a bullet or dementia, the mind gets effed up as well-- the person can no longer speak or remember or walk or recognize people or whatever. If you dissect the brain of a person with certain mental illnesses, you can see the effects of the illness on the brain itself.

If the conscious mind existed on some other plane or in some other dimension, damaging the physical brain matter would not.....matter. (Had to stick that in, just in case my wordplay buddy MM is paying attention.)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #979 on: October 24, 2013, 10:01:48 PM »
No, YOU are missing the point. You are ASSUMING (which seems to be your MO) what a mind is and then attempting to make claims based off of your assumption (as always). Again, a mind is a product of a physical substrate: a brain. Take away all brains in the universe and we are still left with other stuff besides brains. Your arguments are still irrational.

How do you know other stuff exists? The senses are deceiving. A colorblind person sees something as not red and you see something as red. Is the object both red and not red? Or is color just something in the mind? None of our senses escapes this problem.

I rest my case.

If you rested it, then you lost it dumbass. Everyone suffers the same problem of subjectivity. Consciousness is by nature subjective. But this doesn't say anything about whether we can know things. Due to your Christianity/bible assumption you falsely assume that if we can't "know for absolutely certain" things then we can't know anything. You are irrational again. You are using the logical fallacy called False Dichotomy. So too, you are ASSUMING (like you love to do) that "knowledge" must mean 'absolutely certain'. Sorry, it doesn't.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #980 on: October 24, 2013, 10:04:19 PM »
Skep doesn't like what other people know, so he attacks the very idea of knowledge existing.

Kind of immature, but there it is.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #981 on: October 24, 2013, 10:05:02 PM »
Reality is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how reality actually is. If it is a reality absent a divine entity, it remains so no matter how many humans on this speck of rock believe it to be otherwise. Likewise, if it's a reality underpinned, managed and/or maintained by such an entity, it would remain so no matter how many humans on this speck of rock believe it to be otherwise.

You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

This is stupid. It's like saying a tree fell in the woods but made no sound. Just because no one was there to hear, doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. If none of us were here doesn't mean reality wouldn't still exist. It's an actuality, not the notion of one.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #982 on: October 24, 2013, 10:05:19 PM »
Yes, we can see brain activity and our mind at work. It's called an fMRI.

Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell mathematics?
Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell the laws of physics?
Can you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell love?

-Like logic, mathematics is a language we have created to describe the way reality works (no spooky mystical "immaterial" stuff needed) - Lookup Occam's Razor
-Again, the laws of physics are descriptions of the regularity we notice in reality. They do not 'exist' on their own in a vacuum somewhere. The things upon which the laws are based are different than the laws themselves.
-Love is defined in many ways. Please define what you're talking about when you use that word.

GRADE SCHOOL LEVEL LESSON:

An apple, an idea of an apple, and a description of an apple are three separate phenomena


[1]
[Yes, this is original artwork!]
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 11:25:34 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #983 on: October 24, 2013, 10:13:20 PM »
Skeptic,

I see you're still ignoring peoples questions. How are you not a liar?

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Boots

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #984 on: October 24, 2013, 10:31:50 PM »
My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

It's one of the great slam dunk proofs for God.

I'm certain the others are just as slam-dunkey.  I'd love to hear them--but I'm afraid my brain would try to escape out my ear.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #985 on: October 25, 2013, 12:08:38 AM »
This is stupid. It's like saying a tree fell in the woods but made no sound. Just because no one was there to hear, doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. If none of us were here doesn't mean reality wouldn't still exist. It's an actuality, not the notion of one.

-Nam

How do you know that? You're just assuming it.

The same way scientists assume the external world is real and exists outside of our minds. Nobody has ever empirically proved that an external world exists.

Materialism is based on one big assumption.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)