Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 28047 times)

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Offline Iamrational

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #928 on: October 24, 2013, 12:57:32 PM »
If unicorns existed, you have to agree that they would be pink.

There is no way they could be purple or blue. Those are not true unicorns.

Pointless argument. If, If, If.

Oh shoot that reminds me.... "if if's and but's were candy and nuts..."

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #929 on: October 24, 2013, 01:12:31 PM »
He couldn't take the heat...
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #930 on: October 24, 2013, 01:17:27 PM »

Just one more thing Mr Skeptic
I have your statement here-

And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

But that just does not fit in with the jesus story now does it?
Wait a minute- either that didn't happen or jesus gave a false statement and was not really the son of god. :police:
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #931 on: October 24, 2013, 01:38:51 PM »
Jesus was speaking about the generation that started in 1948 with Israel. Generation is roughly 70-75 years so it's getting very close to the end now. The temple is being rebuilt as we speak, coincidentally right near the end of the generation time lapse.

So in ten years time will you come back to this site and admit that your beliefs were just a fantasy?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #932 on: October 24, 2013, 01:43:18 PM »
Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

What you have said here is: “If you believed in the Judeo-Christian God, you would believe in the Judeo-Christian God.”

Admit it, thinking critically is not your strong suit, is it?

I think this is the problem. You believe in Satan (whom God created) and you believe in a magic man in the clouds who makes dead people alive again.

Really. If you told that to anyone, what would they think of you. How is it you cannot see that there are a few questions to be asked before you start believing. You are not going to get any answers at “jesusislord.com” or wherever it was you gave your link to.

These sites always assume there is a god and work from there. If you first assume there is no god, then you start asking the right questions.

As it is, if I asked you to show me some proof that there are (a) gods and (b) the one you worship is the most powerful, I don’t think you could do it.

The other thing is that it is clear that you know very little about the Bible. “Other Gods” exist. Your God says there are other gods. None of these “other gods” have anything to do with Satan at all.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #933 on: October 24, 2013, 01:46:22 PM »
No, I did research. Had I grown up where Islam was dominate, I still would have researched and found out the crescent moon is a satanic symbol and recognize the false religion.

...if atheists want to be honest, they would say, "If I believed, Christianity would be the true religion because other religions are filled with satanic imagery."

Okay researcher extraordinaire; have you researched the cross with the same scrutiny as you claim you would have done in references to Islamic symbols? Have you not heard or at least read that the cross as well as tales of crucified saviors may in fact have "pagan" origins that pre-date Christianity?

Start being more honest my friend or do better research and you will see that Christianity is riddled with what you call "satanic imagery."

Offline Boots

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #934 on: October 24, 2013, 02:00:21 PM »
... a picture of Jesus when they actually don't know what the dude looks like...

-Nam

What's funny is, we know that if he *did* exist, he certainly didn't look anything like the Anglo pics that are most common.  Jesus certainly wasn't white!!
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Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #935 on: October 24, 2013, 02:11:25 PM »
Prehaj Jesus also told his early followers they would not taste death before his return,why did God fail in this promise,but not the promise to sacrifice?

Jesus was speaking about the generation that started in 1948 with Israel.
On what do you base this position?
Quote
Generation is roughly 70-75 years
What? Since when? The most commonly used definition is 20-25 years. You appear to be substituting "average life span" for "generation"...?
Quote
so it's getting very close to the end now. The temple is being rebuilt as we speak, coincidentally right near the end of the generation time lapse.
And if* this fails to materialize will you be coming back to admit that you are wrong?

*I almost said "when" but realized that you would ignore me if I phrased it that way. I figure you're going to ignore me anyway, but wanted to make sure I didn't give you a handy excuse to do it.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 02:13:27 PM by Jag »
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #936 on: October 24, 2013, 03:31:27 PM »
No, I did research. Had I grown up where Islam was dominate, I still would have researched and found out the crescent moon is a satanic symbol and recognize the false religion.
I may be wrong here but I understand that leaving Islam can be punishable by death.
Quite a brave statement to make regarding rejecting Islam.
Do you still think you would have dared to question Islam as a false religion if you lived in an islamic place?
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Online Fiji

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #937 on: October 24, 2013, 03:38:45 PM »
^^ I've come across this claim before. Christians are getting fidgety because they realize that ... well Isreal has been around for a while and 1948 is beginning to look like a long time ago. They cling to the fact that generation might have been supposed to mean lifespan. But even taking into account 75 years, time is running short.
Still, when, by 2025 ... 2030, still nothing has happened, they'll go "but these days people get to be older than 75!" and dig up the guinness book of records and point to some Armenian/Chinese/Mongol woman who lived to be 130/132/135. Hey, when you can make your holy book mean anything you bloody well like ... anything goes. So, Christians will be playing this game for some time yet.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #938 on: October 24, 2013, 03:58:57 PM »
No, I did research. Had I grown up where Islam was dominate, I still would have researched and found out the crescent moon is a satanic symbol and recognize the false religion.
I may be wrong here but I understand that leaving Islam can be punishable by death.
Quite a brave statement to make regarding rejecting Islam.
Do you still think you would have dared to question Islam as a false religion if you lived in an islamic place?

You're not wrong.

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004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #939 on: October 24, 2013, 07:03:12 PM »
Reality is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how reality actually is. If it is a reality absent a divine entity, it remains so no matter how many humans on this speck of rock believe it to be otherwise. Likewise, if it's a reality underpinned, managed and/or maintained by such an entity, it would remain so no matter how many humans on this speck of rock believe it to be otherwise.

You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #940 on: October 24, 2013, 07:10:46 PM »
And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

And just how does the god you believe in reveal itself? Supposing that you have been privy to such a revelation, can you share with us how one and others can objectively know that what you believe was god revealing itself to you was anything more than you attributing something you found meaningful to your idea of god to help confirm the idea that a higher power that knows and cares for you exists?

Also, what evidence can YOU provide that illustrates that you not only know that your impression of what a god being is actually exists, but also that you know what such a being wants?

The evidence is that I was transformed by the blood of the Lamb. My whole mindset and outlook on life completely changed. I used to be an atheist and pissed off that this life is all we get so I went around in a bad mood taking it out on others. People said I was a negative person. That all changed when I gave my life to the Lord. I am living proof.

But like I said, I can't just touch you on your forehead and make you feel the pure joy and peace that I experience right now.

I wish I could guys, I really do.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #941 on: October 24, 2013, 07:13:50 PM »
So in ten years time will you come back to this site and admit that your beliefs were just a fantasy?

No way. No man knows the day or hour. I believe it is getting very close to the end though based on the prophecies.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #942 on: October 24, 2013, 07:15:47 PM »
... a picture of Jesus when they actually don't know what the dude looks like...

-Nam

What's funny is, we know that if he *did* exist, he certainly didn't look anything like the Anglo pics that are most common.  Jesus certainly wasn't white!!

That's exactly right! He would look Middle-Eastern.

The joke I have with my saved brethren is that most false Christians of today would mistake Jesus for a terrorist and run away from Him.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #943 on: October 24, 2013, 07:18:34 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

Without his mind around, your question would make no sense as asked.  It negates itself.

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

Then reality would be in the mind of "God".  Our own minds would be still unable to change it.  It would still be external to our thoughts, and not dependent on them.

Would you agree with DeM's post if he'd said:

(edited with underlines) The mind of God is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how the mind of God actually is. ...

His point remains the same.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #944 on: October 24, 2013, 07:20:01 PM »
^^ I've come across this claim before. Christians are getting fidgety because they realize that ... well Isreal has been around for a while and 1948 is beginning to look like a long time ago. They cling to the fact that generation might have been supposed to mean lifespan. But even taking into account 75 years, time is running short.
Still, when, by 2025 ... 2030, still nothing has happened, they'll go "but these days people get to be older than 75!" and dig up the guinness book of records and point to some Armenian/Chinese/Mongol woman who lived to be 130/132/135. Hey, when you can make your holy book mean anything you bloody well like ... anything goes. So, Christians will be playing this game for some time yet.

Say what you want, but Isarel being reborn was prophesized.
Israel was also a sitting duck in a bunch of wars and always came through. Israel has been getting a huge helping hand from above.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #945 on: October 24, 2013, 07:21:15 PM »
So in ten years time will you come back to this site and admit that your beliefs were just a fantasy?

No way. No man knows the day or hour. I believe it is getting very close to the end though based on the prophecies.
Oh, really. As I can't find a prophecy worth its name in the Bible, which ones were you thinking of?

Israel has been getting a huge helping hand from above.

I think you are confusing this with US Aid.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 07:25:05 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #946 on: October 24, 2013, 07:23:20 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

Without his mind around, your question would make no sense as asked.  It negates itself.

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

Then reality would be in the mind of "God".  Our own minds would be still unable to change it.  It would still be external to our thoughts, and not dependent on them.

Would you agree with DeM's post if he'd said:

(edited with underlines) The mind of God is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how the mind of God actually is. ...

His point remains the same.

God's existence has been proven though. it's not the same thing.  The only way reality can be here before and after humans is if there is a mind around to see it. If all minds are gone, it's nonsensical to think reality can still exist. All reality is dependent on minds. All knowledge we have comes from minds. Without minds, there is nothing!

Ergo, God is real.  :)
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #947 on: October 24, 2013, 07:24:57 PM »
Sheesh.  Honesty from some Christians is like pulling teeth...

Would you agree with DeM's post if he'd said:

(edited with underlines) The mind of God is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how the mind of God actually is. ...
His point remains the same.

God's existence has been proven though. it's not the same thing.  The only way reality can be here before and after humans is if there is a mind around to see it. If all minds are gone, it's nonsensical to think reality can still exist. All reality is dependent on minds. All knowledge we have comes from minds. Without minds, there is nothing!

Ergo, God is real.  :)
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #948 on: October 24, 2013, 07:26:55 PM »
So in ten years time will you come back to this site and admit that your beliefs were just a fantasy?

No way. No man knows the day or hour. I believe it is getting very close to the end though based on the prophecies.
Oh, really. As I can't find a prophecy worth its name in the Bible, which ones were you thinking of?

Israel has been getting a huge helping hand from above.

I think you are confusing this with US Aid.


Here's 7 prophecies to get your feet wet a little before you swim over to the deep end.

http://www.ucg.org/doctrinal-beliefs/seven-prophecies-must-be-fulfilled-jesus-christs-return/
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #949 on: October 24, 2013, 07:27:40 PM »
Prehaj Jesus also told his early followers they would not taste death before his return,why did God fail in this promise,but not the promise to sacrifice?

Jesus was speaking about the generation that started in 1948 with Israel.
On what do you base this position?
Quote
Generation is roughly 70-75 years
What? Since when? The most commonly used definition is 20-25 years. You appear to be substituting "average life span" for "generation"...?
Quote
so it's getting very close to the end now. The temple is being rebuilt as we speak, coincidentally right near the end of the generation time lapse.
And if* this fails to materialize will you be coming back to admit that you are wrong?

*I almost said "when" but realized that you would ignore me if I phrased it that way. I figure you're going to ignore me anyway, but wanted to make sure I didn't give you a handy excuse to do it.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #950 on: October 24, 2013, 07:44:01 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

You see to be having no difficulty in stating things without using your mind. This theory of yours was first enunciated by George Berkeley as"immaterialism" but he must have got it from Buddhists who thought of it c. 500BC,

So basically, you're a Buddhist?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #951 on: October 24, 2013, 07:48:00 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

You see to be having no difficulty in stating things without using your mind. This theory of yours was first enunciated by George Berkeley as"immaterialism" but he must have got it from Buddhists who thought of it c. 500BC,

So basically, you're a Buddhist?

No, I am not Buddhist.

My point is simply that as an atheist, it's quite a daunting task to prove reality can exist without minds.

It's one of the great slam dunk proofs for God.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #952 on: October 24, 2013, 07:50:32 PM »
So in ten years time will you come back to this site and admit that your beliefs were just a fantasy?

No way. No man knows the day or hour. I believe it is getting very close to the end though based on the prophecies.

You said a generation was 70-75 years which means the time limit will have passed in ten years. Are you telling me now that your statement was just wishful thinking OR is it that you would never admit to being wrong?

What is the maximum number of years for a generation? Feel free to protect your delusions with a higher number of years.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #953 on: October 24, 2013, 07:53:54 PM »
^^ I've come across this claim before. Christians are getting fidgety because they realize that ... well Isreal has been around for a while and 1948 is beginning to look like a long time ago. They cling to the fact that generation might have been supposed to mean lifespan. But even taking into account 75 years, time is running short.
Still, when, by 2025 ... 2030, still nothing has happened, they'll go "but these days people get to be older than 75!" and dig up the guinness book of records and point to some Armenian/Chinese/Mongol woman who lived to be 130/132/135. Hey, when you can make your holy book mean anything you bloody well like ... anything goes. So, Christians will be playing this game for some time yet.

Say what you want, but Isarel being reborn was prophesized.
Israel was also a sitting duck in a bunch of wars and always came through. Israel has been getting a huge helping hand from above.

Fiji was actually responding to me, and you never answered my questions to you in the post being replied to.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Jag

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #954 on: October 24, 2013, 07:59:43 PM »
You have yet to prove that. Reality is only defined by minds. Without a mind around, how can you define what reality is?

Without his mind around, your question would make no sense as asked.  It negates itself.

This is why God must exist, for His mind is always there.

Then reality would be in the mind of "God".  Our own minds would be still unable to change it.  It would still be external to our thoughts, and not dependent on them.

Would you agree with DeM's post if he'd said:

(edited with underlines) The mind of God is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how the mind of God actually is. ...

His point remains the same.

God's existence has been proven though. it's not the same thing.  The only way reality can be here before and after humans is if there is a mind around to see it. If all minds are gone, it's nonsensical to think reality can still exist. All reality is dependent on minds. All knowledge we have comes from minds. Without minds, there is nothing!

Ergo, God is real.  :)

Define "mind" without a circular reference please. Understand that I will continue to request definitions of terms until you see the problem with the word game you're trying to play.

And no god's existence, much less the one you believe in, has been proven. What are you really saying? You do understand that we are talking about proof - empirical evidencial proof, not subjective personal beliefs, which are not proof no matter how strong those beliefs might be.

And I still think you're a Poe.  ;)

Edited to add: Please respond to the first point rather than jumping on either of the other two. You can do two posts if you must reply to more than the first one, which is the only one I'm actually interested in.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 08:02:07 PM by Jag »
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #955 on: October 24, 2013, 08:03:40 PM »
Define "mind" without a circular reference please. Understand that I will continue to request definitions of terms until you see the problem with the word game you're trying to play.

And no god's existence, much less the one you believe in, has been proven. What are you really saying? You do understand that we are talking about proof - empirical evidencial proof, not subjective personal beliefs, which are not proof no matter how strong those beliefs might be.

And I still think you're a Poe.  ;)

What is empirical evidence to you?
Is it just based on the 5 senses? if so, we run into a bit of a problem with empiricism.

Can you see your mind?
Can you hear your mind?
Can you taste your mind?
Can you touch your mind?
Can you smell your mind?

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #956 on: October 24, 2013, 08:06:20 PM »
You said a generation was 70-75 years which means the time limit will have passed in ten years. Are you telling me now that your statement was just wishful thinking OR is it that you would never admit to being wrong?

What is the maximum number of years for a generation? Feel free to protect your delusions with a higher number of years.

We'll find out pretty soon when the Anti-Christ sets himself up in the temple and declares himself to be God.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)