Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?

[jdawg70]

And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

Even Satan and his demons know God is real and refuse to worship. You are basically admitting you will take Satan's side. Why would God reveal Himself to someone like that?

To correct misconceptions about him so that someone can make an informed choice.  To let people know that he wants people to worship him and give him thanks.  To ensure that shady humans or malicious demons aren't leading his flock astray.

By the way, how do you know you aren't being led astray by the same demon who is tricking members of the Catholic Church by compiling a false bible?

[skeptic54768]

And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

If you could, just for a moment, divorce yourself from your convictions and read what you wrote from a neutral position, you would be able to see the flaw.

How lucky for you to live in the one place on Earth that predominantly worships the Christian god. I don't suppose that it ever occurred to you that you would be just as convinced of the truth of Islam if you had been born in Iraq.

Even Satan and his demons know God is real and refuse to worship. You are basically admitting you will take Satan's side. Why would God reveal Himself to someone like that?

No one is "basically admitting" any such thing. If atheists don't believe in the christian god what would make you think atheists believe in the christian devil?

And the rest of your post is just plain ignorant and exposes your flawed assumptions about atheists.

No, I did research. Had I grown up where Islam was dominate, I still would have researched and found out the crescent moon is a satanic symbol and recognize the false religion.

[skeptic54768]

And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

Even Satan and his demons know God is real and refuse to worship. You are basically admitting you will take Satan's side. Why would God reveal Himself to someone like that?

To correct misconceptions about him so that someone can make an informed choice.  To let people know that he wants people to worship him and give him thanks.  To ensure that shady humans or malicious demons aren't leading his flock astray.

By the way, how do you know you aren't being led astray by the same demon who is tricking members of the Catholic Church by compiling a false bible?

Because I don't use satanic symbols like the Catholic Church.

[median]

I see nobody has answered the question yet, and they accuse prejah of dodging, yet you guys are ducking, dodging, bobbing, and weaving!

God does not exist. Agree or disagree?

I can see why it's hard for you guys to answer it with a yes or no. It exposes the flaw in your thinking.

if you say yes, you are claiming omniscient knowledge.
if you say no, then that means you agree God exists because there is no other option.

Quite a pickle!

Are you really that much of a dumb-ass that you will choose to completely disregard my response to you on this??? REALLY? I already answered this and apparently you won't listen (go figure). Go back and read my response. The answer is I don't know! Your question presents a false dichotomy (a logical fallacy). Again, theism/atheism have to do with belief, and gnosticism/agnosticism have to do with claims to knowledge. They are not exclusive.

Did you stop beating your Mom yet?

[Azdgari]

Because I don't use satanic symbols like the Catholic Church.

So it's impossible to follow Satan without using Satanic symbols...?

[median]

So you are admitting that both positions are just a personal opinion?

You don't agree that it is objectively true that God does not exist?

I already asked you once before, what do you mean when you are using the term "objectively"?? How are you using that term?

[jdawg70]

Because I don't use satanic symbols like the Catholic Church.

You mean like the bible they compiled for you?

[Graybeard]

No, I did research. Had I grown up where Islam was dominate, I still would have researched and found out the crescent moon is a satanic symbol and recognize the false religion.

:double_facepalm: You do realise that Islamic scholars have done far better research than you (i.e. they didn't just look at Yahoo answers on the net) and these wise men have concluded that, without a doubt, Islam is correct and you are wrong.

If you had grown up in a middle eastern country, the symbolism of the crescent moon would have been explained to you. Millions of Moslems believe equally vehemently that Jesus was simply a prophet and that you are deluded.

I suggest you go to an Islamic forum and try to persuade them that you are right. It will at least give you an idea of what we think of your arguments so far.

There is nothing satanic about the symbol of the crescent moon: http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm (as good an explanation as any and no mention of Satan.)

[Azdgari]

Maybe he means Satanic symbols like this one:

[skeptic54768]

No, I did research. Had I grown up where Islam was dominate, I still would have researched and found out the crescent moon is a satanic symbol and recognize the false religion.

:double_facepalm: You do realise that Islamic scholars have done far better research than you (i.e. they didn't just look at Yahoo answers on the net) and these wise men have concluded that, without a doubt, Islam is correct and you are wrong.

If you had grown up in a middle eastern country, the symbolism of the crescent moon would have been explained to you. Millions of Moslems believe equally vehemently that Jesus was simply a prophet and that you are deluded.

I suggest you go to an Islamic forum and try to persuade them that you are right. It will at least give you an idea of what we think of your arguments so far.

There is nothing satanic about the symbol of the crescent moon: http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm (as good an explanation as any and no mention of Satan.)

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/occult_signs_and_symbols.htm

19th symbol down.

[Azdgari]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/occult_signs_and_symbols.htm

19th symbol down.

That's what it means to you.  But what does it mean to Muslims?

[median]

And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

Even Satan and his demons know God is real and refuse to worship. You are basically admitting you will take Satan's side. Why would God reveal Himself to someone like that?

This argument fails. God "revealed himself" to Satan and the angels. What you are doing is making excuses for your irrational worldview. God (allegedly) reveals himself to lots of people in the bible. Read it. The freewill argument is not an excuse for God (Yahweh) to not freely reveal himself to all. If Muslims used this argument is would be false also. It fails for all religions including yours. And it is exactly what we would expect if your God wasn't real.

[Jag]

No, I did research. Had I grown up where Islam was dominate, I still would have researched and found out the crescent moon is a satanic symbol and recognize the false religion.

And THIS demonstrates the strength of your determination to fool yourself. You would have had little or no exposure to other religious beliefs* and would have defended the Muslim faith with just as much ferocity as you do the stuff you're proclaiming as true here.

And you'd be very surprised to see how similar Islam and Christianity are at their core. Wanna know why? Because they both accept the Old Testament as the word of god, and incorporate it's teaching into their faith. "Allah" and "God" are the same entity, right up until christians try to split their creator into a trinity - then muslims pretty much freak out and think christians are polytheistic and going to hell.

Edit:*during the years of your early indoctrination when you were forming an opinion

[skeptic54768]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/occult_signs_and_symbols.htm

19th symbol down.

That's what it means to you.  But what does it mean to Muslims?

So you agree with Muslim scholars that it's NOT satanic, but don't agree with Muslim scholars when they say their religion is true?

Sounds like an agenda.....

[Jag]

The magic you're trying to assign to symbols is not really relevant to an atheist. We recognize symbols as just that - something that represents something else. Nothing more, nothing less. It no different that any other way (like a word, which is ALSO a symbol) of conveying a concept or an idea.

[median]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/occult_signs_and_symbols.htm

19th symbol down.

That's what it means to you.  But what does it mean to Muslims?

So you agree with Muslim scholars that it's NOT satanic, but don't agree with Muslim scholars when they say their religion is true?

Sounds like an agenda.....

This is a fallacious argument. It's called The Fallacy of Composition.

[Graybeard]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/occult_signs_and_symbols.htm

19th symbol down.

Note how it says "Wicca".

Wicca is yet another invented religion. It was invented back in the 1940s. It is well after Islam came to the Middle East in 600AD. Even more to the point, the goddess Diana has no known connection with Satan. So I don't know how you or the site came to that conclusion.

Oh, and Pastor Bissell? (The supposed police expert on the site)  Here's what a search of Muskogee Police website brought up: http://www.cityofmuskogee.com/mod_lists.asp?search_input=Bissell&list=search&pg= "No results".

Religion is something that the gullible believe. If you believe in invisible men in the sky, you'll believe anything.

[naemhni]

And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

How are we supposed to worship someone and thank him when we don't even know for sure whether he exists?

[skeptic54768]

if atheists want to be honest, they would say, "If I believed, Christianity would be the true religion because other religions are filled with satanic imagery."

Instead they argue, "All religions are the same!"

That is dishonest.

Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

In fact, I even got an atheist to admit this to me a few years ago. He sat down with me and I showed him all the occult and satanic symbols of other religions and he said, "You're right. if God is real, Christianity would definitely be the truth. I just don't believe in God."

At least he wasn't being dishonest and claiming all religions are the same.

[Azdgari]

That's what it means to you.  But what does it mean to Muslims?

So you agree with Muslim scholars that it's NOT satanic, but don't agree with Muslim scholars when they say their religion is true?

Sounds like an agenda.....

It's Satanic to you.  I can accept this without accepting other things you say.
It's not Satanic to them.  I can accept this without accepting other things they say.

By the way, my post was a question.  Why not just answer it?

[median]

if atheists want to be honest, they would say, "If I believed, Christianity would be the true religion because other religions are filled with satanic imagery."

Instead they argue, "All religions are the same!"

That is dishonest.

Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

In fact, I even got an atheist to admit this to me a few years ago. He sat down with me and I showed him all the occult and satanic symbols of other religions and he said, "You're right. if God is real, Christianity would definitely be the truth. I just don't believe in God."

At least he wasn't being dishonest and claiming all religions are the same.

Just believing something doesn't make it true, and your religion is not the oldest one. So your reasoning is invalid, sorry.

[Azdgari]

if atheists want to be honest, they would say, "If I believed in Christianity, Christianity would be the true religion to me because other religions are filled with satanic imagery to Christians."

Instead they argue, "All religions are the same!"

I fixed it for you.  That would be an honest statement.  In fact, I'll state it myself right now:
If I believed in Christianity, Christianity would be the true religion to me because other religions are filled with satanic imagery to Christians (among other reasons).

By the same token,
If I believed in Islam, Islam would be the true religion to me because other religions are filled with satanic imagery to Muslims.

Replace "Satanic" with the negative forces indicated in whatever religion you pick, and it'll work for most.  Not all religions are the same, but most are similar in this respect.

That is dishonest.

Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

Every religion is the true religion to whoever believes it.  But that doesn't make their religion true in any external, ultimate sense.  What we believe doesn't change reality.

In fact, I even got an atheist to admit this to me a few years ago. He sat down with me and I showed him all the occult and satanic symbols of other religions and he said, "You're right. if God is real, Christianity would definitely be the truth. I just don't believe in God."

At least he wasn't being dishonest and claiming all religions are the same.

But because he didn't believe, Christianity is false?  Or just false to him?  Because the former is nonsense.

[Nam]

if atheists want to be honest, they would say, "If I believed, Christianity would be the true religion because other religions are filled with satanic imagery."

Instead they argue, "All religions are the same!"

That is dishonest.

Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

In fact, I even got an atheist to admit this to me a few years ago. He sat down with me and I showed him all the occult and satanic symbols of other religions and he said, "You're right. if God is real, Christianity would definitely be the truth. I just don't believe in God."

At least he wasn't being dishonest and claiming all religions are the same.

Christianity is the butt end of idols. The cross, Christmas tree, bunnies, candles--yes, candles; a picture of Jesus when they actually don't know what the dude looks like. Mary statues, angel statues and figurines.

I could go on.

-Nam

[Deus ex Machina]

Answer this question yes or no:
Do you agree with the statement, "God does not exist?"

Are you familiar with the concept: "Loaded question"?

I see nobody has answered the question yet, and they accuse prejah of dodging, yet you guys are ducking, dodging, bobbing, and weaving!

God does not exist. Agree or disagree?

I can see why it's hard for you guys to answer it with a yes or no. It exposes the flaw in your thinking.

if you say yes, you are claiming omniscient knowledge.
if you say no, then that means you agree God exists because there is no other option.

Quite a pickle!

Your logic just crumbled at that sentence beginning "if you say no". One could, for instance, respond negatively to that question because of the epistemological difficulty in making certain unqualified declarations about the state of reality.

That is not in any sense granting the possibility that any such entity exists (for all we know, reality may simply not work in a way that permits such a being to exist: so much for the "Many Worlds" argument for the existence of God, though that can be turned on its head as an argument for the logical impossibility for any postulated-to-be-omnipresent entity to exist), and it certainly does not grant the possibility that any specific concept of the divine exists.

So what you'd done was, as I'd said already, presented a loaded question, then followed it up with a false dichotomy.

[Azdgari]

^^ Not to mention the problems with how it's formed.  An either/or question is offered (agree/disagree), then the inputs are dealt with as though it's a yes/no question.  Which inputs did those correspond with?  "Yes I agree", "Yes I disagree"...?

[Jag]

Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

I think you're (again) creating a false equivilency. i won't speak for anyone else, but if honesty is what you are interested in here the truth from me: there's no way I could take the position you are advocating precisely because I don't believe in God. I can't pretend that I could give an honest answer to the question, as I can't know what I would think if my beliefs were different. Any response from me would be entirely speculative.

In fact, I even got an atheist to admit this to me a few years ago. He sat down with me and I showed him all the occult and satanic symbols of other religions and he said, "You're right. if God is real, Christianity would definitely be the truth. I just don't believe in God."

At least he wasn't being dishonest and claiming all religions are the same.

I'm not sure how this supports the point you are making. There's a ton of different ways to dissect your point - for instance, we only have your word that the story you tell is true - but without bothering to say more on that it's still just some random guy you talked to who impressed you - and that was just because he agreed with you in the end.

Given your tenacity here, I'm leaning toward an alternative explanation - he agreed so you would stop talking about it. Based on the limited information you've provided about him, my explanation of his concession is as valid as any that you can provide. We're both speculating about his motives for agreeing with you and coming up with different ones. Your view reflects well on you, mine proposes a viable alternative that is somewhat less generous, but we could both be wrong too.

[Deus ex Machina]

if atheists want to be honest, they would say, "If I believed, Christianity would be the true religion because other religions are filled with satanic imagery."

I disagree. If an atheist were honest, they could well state that if they believed (in Christian doctrine), then whilst they might under such circumstances believe Christianity to be the true religion, they recognise that their believing it to be the true religion does not actually make it the true religion.

Reality is what it is. It is not (necessarily) what you, I or anyone else here believe it to be. It existed long before we were born, and will go on existing long after we are gone; and what we do or think is utterly inconsequential to the question of how reality actually is. If it is a reality absent a divine entity, it remains so no matter how many humans on this speck of rock believe it to be otherwise. Likewise, if it's a reality underpinned, managed and/or maintained by such an entity, it would remain so no matter how many humans on this speck of rock believe it to be otherwise.

As such, you appear to be advocating not honesty, but wishful thinking.

Instead they argue, "All religions are the same!"

That is dishonest.

It's an opinion. And probably a superficial one: as it happens, it's not an opinion I share (and I suspect that not many atheists would share it either, were they to delve deeply into the myriad religions that exist). I think some religions are "better" than others, for one reason or another. Culturally-inculcated subjectivity is almost certainly one factor. There are plenty about which I have no opinion, either because I don't know they exist or because I don't know much about them.

Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

No-one is under any obligation to admit such a thing; if they did, it would be faulty reasoning. Reality does not reshape itself to become in accordance with our wishes, desires, or firm beliefs. If I believed Christianity to be the true religion, my mere belief does not elevate it to the status of "true religion". I could still be wrong. The Jews could still be right. And nothing that either you or I believe or hope or desire would matter one whit to that.

The same is true if there is no transcendent divine entity at all. The atheists would still be right (even if they got there by what some consider a hasty conclusion). No matter how strongly you or I or anyone else believed, we'd still live in a world absent any such transcendent divine entity. The only "divine entity", in such a circumstance, that would exist would be the one in our imaginations.

In fact, I even got an atheist to admit this to me a few years ago. He sat down with me and I showed him all the occult and satanic symbols of other religions and he said, "You're right. if God is real, Christianity would definitely be the truth. I just don't believe in God."

That's not exactly bulletproof reasoning, there (which God?), unless you're omitting rather a large chunk of the tale - and it's also not the same statement as the one in your first sentence that you're railing against atheists for their failure to accept.

[Astreja]

Just because you guys don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean you can't admit that it would be the true religion if you did believe.

Uh, no.  Christianity is a convoluted mess of Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek ideas, and it has some rather dubious morality.  Sin inherited from one's ancestors?  Allowing someone to die on your behalf, rather than paying your own debts?  A loving god that maintains a place of eternal punishment?  Ridiculous and unconscionable.

I am much more inclined to view Ásatrú, modern-day worship of the Norse gods, as a vastly superior system.  It has gods who defend the world against fire giants and ice giants, a leader who values wisdom (Hei, Dad!  *wave wave wave*), a trickster who usually fixes his own mistakes, and the optimistic view that even if the gods themselves perish defending the Earth, life will return.

And then there are the Nine Noble Virtues:  Courage, truth, honour, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, self-reliance, industriousness and perserverance.  Rather than the "Thou shalt not" tone of the 10 Commandments, which are rendered into their opposites by the unconscious mind (which has trouble understanding negatives), the Virtues promote positive values that support the best of civil society and the best of the individual.

Oh, and the Norse myths are funny, too:  Uncle Loki gives birth to an 8-legged horse; Thor has to dress up like Freyja to get his stolen hammer back; and general mayhem at a soirée described in the Lokasenna.

No contest.

[Truth OT]

And that's why God will not reveal Himself to you. He's not in the business of proving Himself. He wants people to worship Him and give Him thanks.

And just how does the god you believe in reveal itself? Supposing that you have been privy to such a revelation, can you share with us how one and others can objectively know that what you believe was god revealing itself to you was anything more than you attributing something you found meaningful to your idea of god to help confirm the idea that a higher power that knows and cares for you exists?

Also, what evidence can YOU provide that illustrates that you not only know that your impression of what a god being is actually exists, but also that you know what such a being wants?