Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 28074 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #667 on: October 22, 2013, 01:32:28 AM »
mm,

It was; everyone (including the guy I beat) that was questioned said they didn't see anything, or they didn't know anything. The guy I beat, after he got out of the hospital, left the state.

Oh, and the whole town knew I did it, including the police.

-Nam

If the police knew you did it, why didn't they bring charges? And how did they know it was you?

They also knew he raped his 13 year old cousin but couldn't do anything about that (I don't know why, I only got part of the story) -- maybe they thought he deserved it.

-Nam

A strange police force. Incestuous rape of a minor, savage beating resulting in a significant hospital stay, no charges. Was he really in hospital for months, or are you exaggerating? It also seems like a really strange thing to boast about. When he told you, did he just sort of mention it in passing? How did you know him?

Assuming the police didn't actually witness the beating, how did the police know who to question?

Sorry to interrogate, but the investigator if me wants to know.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #668 on: October 22, 2013, 01:35:37 AM »
But this doesn't tell us that Jesus is really in some unseen spiritual realm, or whether he really is this Savior.  It doesn't tell us that there is such a place as heaven.  And it certainly doesn't tell us why Jesus is relying on the equivalent of word-of-mouth preaching rather than adding other means to help spread the message.  I can think of a number of ways in which a god could act to help get a message like that across, but all that Christians have is their own belief and the accumulation of ancient writings called the Bible.

The Bible is a great means of communication. The Bible has been protected for thousands of years. No one brought it down. It's been translated by countless scribes over countless hours. The printing press was invented for the sole purpose of getting the Bible out there for more people to read.

The method seems to be working just fine.

Once came across a site that contained all the bibles ... all 600+ of them, all different. With some of them, the difference was simply a different translation, with others entire books were included or excluded. So there is no such thing as THE bible. Besides are there any two Christians who use the same bible and agree on what it says?
Speaking of translations ... why are they necessary anyway? Why did this god of yours only reveal himself in a few languages, making translation necessary?
And of course with translation comes the risk of mistakes. Like, in the original text, Jesus was born to a young woman and in the translation, he's suddenly born to a virgin. Oops.

Now, I've translated stuff from German into Dutch and vice versa. The two are about as close together as any two languages can be. And I have come across phrases that simply can't be transalted between these two sibling languages without ever so slightly changing the meaning.
Yet in the bible, we have phrases that have been translated from Ancient Hebrew into Ancient Greek into English[1] ... all of them vastly more different than Dutch and German. 
And this you call "working just fine"?
 1. or whatever chain of languages
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #669 on: October 22, 2013, 01:57:45 AM »
mm,

It was; everyone (including the guy I beat) that was questioned said they didn't see anything, or they didn't know anything. The guy I beat, after he got out of the hospital, left the state.

Oh, and the whole town knew I did it, including the police.

-Nam

If the police knew you did it, why didn't they bring charges? And how did they know it was you?

They also knew he raped his 13 year old cousin but couldn't do anything about that (I don't know why, I only got part of the story) -- maybe they thought he deserved it.

-Nam

A strange police force.

I don't know the whole story. I only what she told me, and what he told me[1], the rest was gossip, and frankly I don't take much stock in gossip.

Quote
Was he really in hospital for months, or are you exaggerating?

I broke the left side of his face, and damaged his neck. He was actually more muscular than I was, at the time, and at first I didn't know who he was when approached me. I knew my fiancé had slept with guys before me, and at first I let him rattle on until he told me that he took her virginity; then I realized who he was, and I punched him in the neck as hard as I could as I was handing him a cigarette (that he asked for), then pushed him on the ground, got on top of him, and starting to continuously punch him in the face until my friends finally pulled me off of him.

Quote
It also seems like a really strange thing to boast about. When he told you, did he just sort of mention it in passing? How did you know him?

See above.

Quote
Assuming the police didn't actually witness the beating, how did the police know who to question?

It is a small town of 6,000 people, it isn't difficult to find connections to other people. No, the police weren't there. It was a few miles outside of town at an old cemetery. My friends and fiancé liked to go there, at night, to get high and drink; disturbing cemeteries wasn't[2] my thing, so I stayed at my car outside the cemetery by the road. At first when I saw headlights coming toward me I was going to yell at my friends and fiancé but then I noticed it was the wrong type of vehicle and went back to smoking my cigarette. He pulled up[3], got out, and approached me. He knew of "Nam" but he, like many others[4], did not know I was "Nam". And, from the "gossip", he liked to brag about raping his cousin, and getting away with it. Morons exist, he's one of them.

Quote
Sorry to interrogate, but the investigator if me wants to know.

It's not a sore subject for me. Really don't care.

-Nam
 1. when he bragged
 2. still isn't
 3. looking for weed
 4. like those at my workplace
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #670 on: October 22, 2013, 02:16:13 AM »
I believe that is the simplistic truth.

The truth is that you are an ignorant bigot who doesn't know anything about homosexuals or the bible?
Damn.

Is it your position that anyone who believes in Jesus is weak minded? That is quite a slippery slope to be skiing on.

Yes, that is my position.
"God did it" is not a replacement for anything.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #671 on: October 22, 2013, 02:47:02 AM »
Is it your position that anyone who believes in Jesus is weak minded? That is quite a slippery slope to be skiing on.
There are people on this site who have come from a religious background.
I very much admire the fact that they went on to question religion, turn away from it, and now post their experience and wisdom on here. That must take alot of courage especially for those that were believers for many years.
Perhaps not weak minded but just temporarily misguided?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #672 on: October 22, 2013, 07:34:42 AM »
The book of Genesis was written in 900 BC.

There weren't even people that could properly be called "jews" in 900 bce.  They were still polytheists at that point and their gods included el, yhwh, his wife Asherah, baal, Mot, Shalim and a host of others.  That last guy, Shalim, is who Jerusalem is named after. He is not another name for yhwh though.  yhwh is yhwh.  ShalimWiki is slm. He is also identified as the Evening Star, or the Morning star.  You know by what other name the Morning Star was referred?  Yep.  LuciferWiki

Oh, it gets all jumbled up and crazy, doesn't it? 
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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #673 on: October 22, 2013, 08:07:15 AM »
He really is in trouble.
There is undeniable evidence that this is not true.
I fear he will never be able to see beyond his book- it is almost as if he has been plugged into the "bible matrix" and does not want to be disconnected from it.
Ignorance is bliss

Same evidence, different conclusions.

NO its not the same evidence.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #674 on: October 22, 2013, 08:08:49 AM »
The Bible is a great means of communication. The Bible has been protected for thousands of years. No one brought it down. It's been translated by countless scribes over countless hours. The printing press was invented for the sole purpose of getting the Bible out there for more people to read.

The method seems to be working just fine.
This from the same person who says that every single other church besides his own is demon-influenced.  You do realize that every single one of those churches uses a variation on the Bible, most of which include that verse in 2 Timothy that says that all scripture is God-breathed.  So much for it being a "great means of communication" or "protected for thousands of years".

No, I would say that this 'method' is not working fine at all, by your own arguments.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I didn't make my decision on that simplistic quote. That's just a summation of my position.
Yet all you're willing to give other people are simplistic things like that (oh, and "other churches are tools of Satan", which is not really better).  In other words, even though you know that it takes more than simplistic statements about Christianity to maybe get through to people, you're not willing to actually give anyone anything more solid.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Same evidence, different conclusions. That's my motto. That's why I say agree to disagree. The evidence has lead us to different places.
Except that you buy into the whole "everyone who doesn't believe exactly the right way goes to hell" argument.  Which means that either you simply don't care if other people do go to hell - undercutting your "I love everyone" claims - or you don't actually believe that they are going to hell and you're just using that as a hook to try to lure them in - which means you're a liar.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I am perfectly capable of listening to things that contradict the faith. Bible says to test your faith against scrutiny.
No, that means that you need to scrutinize your own faith - not simply listen to another person's statements which contradict your faith, summarily dismiss them, and then pat yourself on the back for having "tested your faith against scrutiny".
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 09:21:49 AM by jaimehlers »

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #675 on: October 22, 2013, 08:21:10 AM »
I am going by what the Bible says. Deception does not call for equality among all men. Demonic doctrines call for that stuff, which is what you guys are used to hear being preached. You guys were probably duped by the false doctrines as well when you used to be believers. It's easy to wake up and realize your doctrines are false, and then apply that same reasoning to Christianity as a whole.
You mean the bible that the demon tricking the Catholic Church put together?  Is that the one you put so much trust in?

How do you know you aren't following a false doctrine?  Because your doctrine tells you it's not false.  Do you seriously not see the problem with that????!?!?!???!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!??!?!!!!!!??!?!????
Quote
Had you guys been deep into the faith where God has proven Himself to you, you would still be Christian.
So...if god had proven himself to me, I'd be a Christian.  I can't argue with that, but it certainly brings to question why he hasn't bothered to do such a thing.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #676 on: October 22, 2013, 08:26:07 AM »
He really is in trouble.
There is undeniable evidence that this is not true.
I fear he will never be able to see beyond his book- it is almost as if he has been plugged into the "bible matrix" and does not want to be disconnected from it.
Ignorance is bliss

Same evidence, different conclusions.
^^This has been picked up on a couple of times now so please show us what evidence shows you that "The world was created circa 4,000 BC"
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #677 on: October 22, 2013, 08:27:58 AM »
I can only conclude that skeptic54768 has NO reliable means of determining if he is being deceived or not.   His "deceit test" for others seems to be "if they do not think like me, they are deceived" - but he has no way of testing if his own beliefs are truth or deception.

I am going by what the Bible says. Deception does not call for equality among all men. Demonic doctrines call for that stuff, which is what you guys are used to hear being preached. You guys were probably duped by the false doctrines as well when you used to be believers. It's easy to wake up and realize your doctrines are false, and then apply that same reasoning to Christianity as a whole. Had you guys been deep into the faith where God has proven Himself to you, you would still be Christian.

Sorry, but that does not answer the question.  How do you know that the Bible does not deceive you?  Further to that, if two people read the Bible and come away with different messages (as we know full well happens), which of them is being deceived?  And how do you tell?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #678 on: October 22, 2013, 10:34:50 AM »
Whoa. Wait a minute.

This country was not founded on Christianity. The only thing our founding documents say about religion is that the government should not be based on it! If the founders had wanted a bible-based Christian theocracy they would probably have said so, somewhere. They wrote the opposite. They did the opposite. The bible and the ten commandments are not mentioned anywhere. Many were not even Christians--certainly none were the kind of clueless, ignorant, insular Christians running around in the US today, making up fake history and trying to get rid of the secular government the founders set up.

This guy just said that people back in the days when slavery was legal and commonplace (basically any time before the 19th century) were racist because of the THEORY OF EVOLUTION.  :o

No.  No, no, no. People were racist because they wanted to justify the fact that they had slaves. And they also used the bible and Christianity to justify having slaves. Because if you converted the Africans to the right religion, it didn't matter if you beat them to death. They went straight into heaven. Nowhere in the bible does it say not to enslave people. You just are not supposed to covet the slaves your neighbor has. And if you rape the females,  they might have to marry you. &)

Slavery ended in England, Canada and Haiti decades before it ended in "Christian" US. And he thinks that slavery ended in the US because of Christianity. I thought it ended because of a civil war, with people claiming to be Christians fighting on both sides.[1] My bad.

Amazing what you learn on this site!
 1. The highly Christian parts of the country today are the former slave-holding southern states. Also the most impoverished and backward region of the country. Imagine what the US would look like if they had won the civil war.... :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #679 on: October 22, 2013, 11:15:30 AM »
So...if a god had proven himself to me, I'd be a Christian.  I can't argue with that, but it certainly brings to question why he hasn't bothered to do such a thing.

Many things wrong with this. First, you say "a god", not the Biblical god (Jewish or Christian), Secondly it's a weak position for your own current position, and thirdly Conservative Republican has evidence it exists, doesn't mean I'm going to switch my position just to follow it.

This tells me you really have no convictions. Personally, I didn't cease being a Christian because of the god of the Bible: I ceased being a Christian because it's a religion of hate guised under love. The rest came later.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #680 on: October 22, 2013, 12:35:14 PM »
So...if a god had proven himself to me, I'd be a Christian.  I can't argue with that, but it certainly brings to question why he hasn't bothered to do such a thing.
I'll admit that I was being rather intellectually lazy with this comment.  I'm basically at a point where I'll happily concede a good number of things to skeptic54768 just so he can focus on the "how do you know the bible isn't a trick" question.
Quote
Many things wrong with this. First, you say "a god", not the Biblical god (Jewish or Christian),
Again, intellectual laziness on my part.  I should have explicitly specified 'The god of the Bible', or 'the Christian god', but I merely assumed that skeptic54768 would have derived that on his own.
Quote
Secondly it's a weak position for your own current position,
I'm not sure I understand this actually.  Elaborate please.
Quote
and thirdly Conservative Republican has evidence it exists, doesn't mean I'm going to switch my position just to follow it.

This tells me you really have no convictions.
This is very dependent on the definition of 'Christian', which I really didn't want to try to get into with skeptic54768.  Frankly it's always just a pain-in-the-ass conversation anyway, because there are just so damn many ways to define 'Christian'.  I was going more on the 'believe that the Christian god entity and his son Jesus' exists, not so much the worship part.

Again, intellectual laziness on my part.
Quote
Personally, I didn't cease being a Christian because of the god of the Bible: I ceased being a Christian because it's a religion of hate guised under love. The rest came later.

-Nam
Well, personally, I ceased being a Christian because the tenants of Christianity appear to be untrue.  For me, the rest came later.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #681 on: October 22, 2013, 01:17:33 PM »
If this alleged "sacrifice" was anything real, credible, or authoritative it would be known to all and not controversial. This brings us to the thesis of non-belief. The fact there is non-belief in this 'Jesus sacrifice' thing demonstrates quite clearly that this 'God' thing isn't real. 

See here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24758.msg550388.html#msg550388
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #682 on: October 22, 2013, 01:29:20 PM »
I am going by what the Bible says.

Is this really so or are you going by what you've conditioned yourself to believe the Bible says? You certainly don't appear to be going by what the Bible says about Jesus 2nd coming and the lasts days being within the generation of his contemporaries some 2000 years ago.

Demonic doctrines ................which is what you guys are used to hear being preached. You guys were probably duped by the false doctrines as well when you used to be believers. It's easy to wake up and realize your doctrines are false, and then apply that same reasoning to Christianity as a whole. Had you guys been deep into the faith where God has proven Himself to you, you would still be Christian.

A bit arrogant and I bet you don't even recognize it.
Newsflash, no matter how deep into a faith one may get, when there faith is based on falsehoods and imaginary deities, those or that diety will not reveal anything. Bushwick, Willie D, and Scareface tried to tell that it is YOUR MIND that's playing tricks on you. You appear to be so deeply in love with your faith that it takes precedent over reason, evidence, and even truth. You've got to open up your heart and allow facts to from time to time at least, to get in the way of your opinions.

For me, I'd still be a Christian if and only if the Bible that I was relying upon for my faith's foundation was found to be truly authentic in every way, 100% prophetically accurate, non contradictory, not morally relativistic based on race and gender, and more coherant as if pertains to what God is specifically, what was expected from me specifically, and if it didn't speak about talking donkeys and serpents, stairways to the heavens, rivers turning to blood, and things like concubines being enslaved, raped, murdered, cut into little pieces and those little pieces being mailed to various tribal elders so they could consult to find out God's will in a matter of discipline, vengence, and further sexual assaults (Judges 19-21). It's a collection of writings that is filled with the fingerprints of men, prejudiced and ignorant men at that who viewed the world from a very limited perspective that should be obvious is not the perspective an intelligent omnimax and loving deity.

When you resolve to give truth a bigger place in your heart than you give faith, you'd be amazed how you can grow as a person. The immutability of people's faith has been a huge stumbling block throughout the history of humankind. Faith should ALWAYS take a back seat to truth, facts, and evidence, that way as it gets built up it will more likely have a basis in reality that always it to be truly beneficial to it holder and those the holder interacts with.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #683 on: October 22, 2013, 02:01:42 PM »
jdawg,

Quote
Nam--Secondly it's a weak position for your own current position,

jdawg--I'm not sure I understand this actually.  Elaborate please.

If one identifies themselves as an atheist, as many here do, then, the stance is that the Christian deity doesn't exist[1], none of what they believe is true, and the only evidence we have to this being true is the ludicrousness of it all based on reality. But there is that atomically slight chance that it is true, right? So, if your position against it now is an atheist in defiance[2] then if evidence existed it was all true that you'd bow down in an instance makes your current position weak.

It's like the atheist version of Pascal's Wager.

-Nam
 1. or any other deity
 2. in a Christian's theological point-of-view
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #684 on: October 22, 2013, 02:47:59 PM »
If one identifies themselves as an atheist, as many here do, then, the stance is that the Christian deity doesn't exist[1], none of what they believe is true, and the only evidence we have to this being true is the ludicrousness of it all based on reality. But there is that atomically slight chance that it is true, right? So, if your position against it now is an atheist in defiance[2] then if evidence existed it was all true that you'd bow down in an instance makes your current position weak.

It's like the atheist version of Pascal's Wager.

-Nam
 1. or any other deity
 2. in a Christian's theological point-of-view

I think you have overstated what qualifies one to be an atheist in the above post. All that is required is the lack of belief in gods, nothing more. Apart from a theists beliefs in gods, some of what they believe can be true or even valuable.
If it were to be proved or at least demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular god does in fact exist, then remaining an atheist would be a mark of either ignorance, dishonesty, or flat out stupidity. Our faith or the lack thereof should always be based on evidence and facts instead of being simply based upon standing against the faiths we see that aren't based on reality.   

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #685 on: October 22, 2013, 03:07:06 PM »
If one identifies themselves as an atheist, as many here do, then, the stance is that the Christian deity doesn't exist[1], none of what they believe is true, and the only evidence we have to this being true is the ludicrousness of it all based on reality. But there is that atomically slight chance that it is true, right? So, if your position against it now is an atheist in defiance[2] then if evidence existed it was all true that you'd bow down in an instance makes your current position weak.

It's like the atheist version of Pascal's Wager.

-Nam
 1. or any other deity
 2. in a Christian's theological point-of-view
Actually, in the case of the existence of the Christian god (defined, for purposes of this discussion, as all-knowing/all-powerful/all-loving with a vested interest in human affairs), I do not ascribe an atomically slight chance of truth to his/her existence based upon my current understanding of reality, but I certainly accept that I could flat out be wrong about my understanding of reality.

Now if we back-peddle a bit and just go with the broader 'Christian' god, defined as simply all-knowing and all-powerful, and shares many of the attributes as ascribed in the bible, then I think you're kind of correct.  I don't know if it means my position is weak...perhaps it would be better to say that I'm 'weak-willed'.  I don't know if I can honestly answer the question "If an all-powerful deity threatened me with eternal torment, and (somehow) I knew that this entity was all-powerful (and possibly malicious), how would I behave?".  I mean, I know that I want to say I'd have the decency to do what is morally right irrespective of what the cosmic dictator wants or does to me, but, having never experienced years upon years of intense agony and extreme torture at the behest of a supervillain, I cannot say for certain I wouldn't cower out of it.  Seriously, I'd like to think that I'd have the balls to say 'no' to someone demanding worship from me, but I ask myself if I'd change my tune if that person spent years shoving spiked pickles up my a** repeatedly, and I (for some reason) believed that he would stop after I decided to worship him.

So, in a sense, there is a bit of 'atheist Pascal's Wager' in there, but it's a stretch.  I'm not saying that, based on the remote possibility that god (as per above defined) exists I would definitely worship him.  Situations would have to be actually manifest for me to make any determination one way or another.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #686 on: October 22, 2013, 03:08:35 PM »
^^To add to that (Truth OT's statement), there's nothing saying that you would have to worship a god, even if it were proven that said god existed.  But you would at least have to acknowledge its existence.  Otherwise you'd be doing the exact same thing that the vast majority of theists engage in today - believing in something that goes counter to reality.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #687 on: October 22, 2013, 03:29:25 PM »
snip
snip

Greydon Square (an atheist rapper, check him out) has a line in his hit song Stockholm Syndrome (skip to 0:46 to get right to the line)[1] that goes:

Quote
I don't give a shit if he created me/
That don't give him a right to commit genocide with pride and act crazily



That sums up my viewpoint on the matter pretty well, I think.  I really don't care whether he exists or not, I'm still not worshiping him.  Fuck 'im.

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 1. This isn't on my YouTube account, but the description of the video does shout-out WWGHA, coincidentally.  Just a fun fact.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #688 on: October 22, 2013, 03:43:44 PM »
True Christians love gays. We just want them to change their behavior to what God intended.

Love?  You call that love?  Hahahahaha!

No, Skeptic, you do not love LGBT people.  Our attraction to people of the same gender is as much a part of us as a heterosexual individual's attraction to people of the opposite gender.  Essentially you're bullying us in the name of a hypothetical god, trying to get us to deny a part of ourselves.  It is no less offensive than if someone ordered you to abandon your loved ones, surgically remove your gonads, and live in a cave for the rest of your life.
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #689 on: October 22, 2013, 03:53:14 PM »
True Christians love gays. We just want them to change their behavior to what God intended.

Love?  You call that love?  Hahahahaha!

No, Skeptic, you do not love LGBT people.  Our attraction to people of the same gender is as much a part of us as a heterosexual individual's attraction to people of the opposite gender.  Essentially you're bullying us in the name of a hypothetical god, trying to get us to deny a part of ourselves.  It is no less offensive than if someone ordered you to abandon your loved ones, surgically remove your gonads, and live in a cave for the rest of your life.

He loves fish--he just wants them to get out of the water and breathe air like other animals, as god intended. :o
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #690 on: October 22, 2013, 03:58:50 PM »
If this alleged "sacrifice" was anything real, credible, or authoritative it would be known to all and not controversial. This brings us to the thesis of non-belief. The fact there is non-belief in this 'Jesus sacrifice' thing demonstrates quite clearly that this 'God' thing isn't real. 



Can you make the same accusation of any event which isn't believed universally to have occurred?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #691 on: October 22, 2013, 04:26:53 PM »
Which other events are supposed to be showcased to all of humanity by an omnipotent being?

None?

Right.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #692 on: October 22, 2013, 05:27:15 PM »
I know I'm way behind here, but I want to say a couple of words to Skeptic.  This is as an LGBT teen.  With all the prejudices I face, I think he needs to hear this.

True Christians love gays. We just want them to change their behavior to what God intended.

You want to say that I should stop liking men because it's a sin against your god?  You love me like you love a murderer, supporting them but hoping they change their ways?  That's not love!  That's bullshit!  That's self-righteous, hypocritical, arrogant, pseudo-pious bullshit! 

I don't care the gender of people you fuck.  I don't worry about that.  I don't try to convert you to "homosexuality" like it's a fucking devil-worshiping camp.  My sexual orientation does not have any influence on your life at all, and don't try to fucking tell me otherwise.  Being gay doesn't harm me in the slightest, except when asshats like you get on internet forums like this and start preachin' their heads off.

On behalf of every LGBT human on this pale blue dot,

Fuck you.
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Offline Prejah

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #693 on: October 22, 2013, 05:33:00 PM »
oh I'm sure there are a lot of things we probably disagree about. That separates the ones that follow Christ and the ones that just call themselves Christians to be chic.

Interesting.  And between you and he, which one is which?

Me of course. I follow Christ and try to model after him...that is the way to Salvation, not winning arguments or picketing soldiers funerals.

Right… That’s good. Is there anyone else like you on earth? (You know, as opposed to magicmiles who is obviously chic but little else?)

Anyway, here’s a little verse for you:

We are the pure and chosen few,
And all the rest are damned.
There’s room enough in hell for you—
We don’t want heaven crammed.

I suppose you spend most of your time chasing moneylenders out of temples and cursing fig trees? Must be kinda busy.

Tell me, how do you propose to sacrifice yourself to save us sinners, or hasn’t your father told you that yet?

I wouldn't know a fig tree if it fell on me so can't admit to that one. Why would I sacrifice myself to save other sinners? Everyone is a sinner and it is not up to me to save anyone-nor can I. When someone accepts Christ as their savior and asks forgiveness from sin, he or she shall be saved. Simple as that really.

Offline Prejah

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #694 on: October 22, 2013, 05:51:34 PM »
Prejah can you give me an explanation as to how a man getting executed for crimes by a regime is a sacrifice? Why exactly he asked his "father" as he was being executed for crimes "Father why have you forsaken me"? If a man named Jesus existed he was executed like many others of the time period were.for being a criminal.

 There is NO sacrifice here,just an execution

Sacrifice. I have seen some of the earlier posts where it seems that if nothing is really lost does that mean he really sacrificed anything? I mean so what if he got whipped around a little, dude knew he was going to rise and be super cool after that so where is the real sacrifice?  Well, I guess I was thinking...if I train for a triathlon, I train for a few hours every day, eat right, give up crappy food and such "sacrifice time and eating junk" if you will, does that mean that after the triathlon is over and I go back to eating twinkies all day-does that mean that I didn't "sacrifice" during that time? I would say I damn sure did sacrifice something, time and enjoyment of food.

But maybe everyone is focusing on him sacrificing something rather than "being the sacrifice". He was the offering, the fulfillment of the prophecy foretold. He was human at the time of his death. He felt emotion, he felt pain, he felt sorrow. Just because that was not the case after his rising does not mean that he did not go thru the suffering of the passion.  With this suffering he cleansed us. We seemed to be a dysfunctional lot that needed some cleansing-Christ dying did that. The last perfect sacrifice. No longer were animals needed to fulfill this-the lamb came and washed away all that was before him by fulfilling God's promise. Not sure that answered your question, so it if didn't, please ask again

As far as his question to his father-he was human, he had doubt. The sin of the world was placed on him and it was enormous. Sin moves us farther away from God...sin turns our path away from the Lord. When the sin of the world was placed upon him in that fragile time, he very well may have felt he was light years away from his Father. Sin does that, it takes us on that path. He had so much sin, was so far removed from the Father because of this sin, he was simply expressing how he felt at the time. Lost, how we feel if we don't have God in our lives.

Your "feeling" is about all you have to go on here (including the assumption of your theology/bible). Yet the analogy you presented is a false one. Are you comparing yourself to being all-powerful, all-knowing, and eternal? The argument is that God didn't sacrifice anything b/c he didn't lose anything! So you are not comparing apples to apples. Sacrifices require loss. Now, I don't think the story is true at all - it's purely fiction. But even if I grant it, for the sake of argument, it still makes no sense. The all-mighty cosmic Kim Jong Il lost nothing. He didn't have to work for anything only to find out it was gone, b/c (as the story goes) he was himself! He sacrificed himself to himself and lost nothing b/c (according to that theology) he owns everything! The entire theological structure is built upon fallacies and credulity. This 'God' thing didn't die, could create anything 'from nothing', and was his own son. It's beyond absurd.

My faith is what I go on relative to the bible. Because the argument is about sacrifice meaning loss does not mean it is correct. God sacrificed his Son, his Son was the sacrifice, he didn't lose anything. You are wrong on the meaning of sacrifice in this argument or perhaps trying to make an argument based on the incorrect meaning relative to the subject. Do you just want to argue?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #695 on: October 22, 2013, 05:52:14 PM »
Which other events are supposed to be showcased to all of humanity by an omnipotent being?

None?

Right.

It wasn't clear to me if Median was taking that perspective, or if the lack of universal belief in any historical event is sufficient to discredit it. 
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